Spokane (WA) judge rules parishes, other assets available to abuse victims

[JOHNYJ]

If the priests had been doing this alone.
If other priests hadn’t known,if the local bishop hadn’t known.These judgements wouldn’t be so big.If a Red cross employee does something while on the job and his boss knows about it and does nothing. Than those harmed can sue the whole chapter of the Red Cross.
The Archbishop of Los Angeles has been in court for over 2 years tryig to stop the release of files having to do with the scandal.How much has it cost in high priced Los Angeles legal talent.Why not just come clean ? Thats the unknown cost all these lawyers to stop the truth from coming out.It must be in the millions by now.

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

Now this has to be the most inspired post I have ever read in these forums. Why punish the children for the sins of the fathers, when the vast majority of rank and file Catholics were never aware the abuse was taking place until the John Geoghan case broke in January 02?

Trust me, I feel just as much betrayed by our shepherds as anyone, but since the Catholic Church is not a democracy we can’t vote our bishops out.

With the perpetrators either dead or long gone out of ministry, I just can’t see how auctioning off churches will bring about any justice or healing for the victims, especially when it creates more victims.
[/quote]

I second the “Amen” to Ghosty’s post. Punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty (a generation removed, no less) is nothing more than vengeance, and not justice.

Crazy Internet Junkies Society
Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag

 

[Brad]

JOHNYJ:

If the priests had been doing this alone.
If other priests hadn’t known,if the local bishop hadn’t known.These judgements wouldn’t be so big.If a Red cross employee does something while on the job and his boss knows about it and does nothing. Than those harmed can sue the whole chapter of the Red Cross.
The Archbishop of Los Angeles has been in court for over 2 years tryig to stop the release of files having to do with the scandal.How much has it cost in high priced Los Angeles legal talent.Why not just come clean ? Thats the unknown cost all these lawyers to stop the truth from coming out.It must be in the millions by now.

There has to be built-in protection to the innocent that are harmed by such punitive damages. Innocent parties include those that are recipients of aid and those that donate money to the organizations for the aid that they provide. If these parties are guilty, they should go to jail. Punitive damages need to be revamped. Those that contributed money to their diocese with the best intent are also partial-victims of the immorality of those entrused. They should not be punished.

Punitive damages, as I have proposed before, should be distributed evenly amongst all customers/members of an organization. This would cut down dramatically on the lawsuits and be much more fair.

 

[Brad]

CarolAnnSFO:

I second the “Amen” to Ghosty’s post. Punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty (a generation removed, no less) is nothing more than vengeance, and not justice.

Crazy Internet Junkies Society
Carrier of the Angelic Sparkles Sprinkle Bag

From a spiritual and biblical perspective, we are to expect the sins of the fathers to cause us to suffer.

From a citizen of a democracy perspective, we must vigorously fight unjust decisions such as these.

We must agree to both crosses.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Brad:

Do you think all assets of the Red Cross should be sold if some employee engaged in homosexual activity with a teenager some 25 years ago?

That depends on whether Red Cross management was aware of it, and in their official capacity as managers finagled things around to cover it allow the employee to continue having “fresh meat” by rotating them around from one store to the other to keep from having a “scandal.” In that case, yes.

Secondly, the innocent laity is far from innocent. The priest and Bishop is to set the moral standard for the diocese. They didn’t. That is the breakdown. Dissenting and immoral clerics. There is no rule by consensus in the Church. You are pushing for an incorrect solution to a grave problem. If the laity are innocent, let’s see some more laity calling the priests to greater conversion.

I honestly didn’t get that. The laity is responsible for the sins of the clergy? If they are innocent they should call the priests to greater conversion? They did, and it escalated into a court case that ended up doing something that will hopefully get their attention. Is there a provision in church law for laity to “impeach” a priest if they do not think the priest is worthy?

Alan

 

[Nohome]

Brad:

I’m not assuming anything. I’m stating a preference. And I’m implying that I’m not sending good money after bad.

I agree!

Nohome

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Brad:

From a spiritual and biblical perspective, we are to expect the sins of the fathers to cause us to suffer.

From a citizen of a democracy perspective, we must vigorously fight unjust decisions such as these.

We must agree to both crosses.

That’s a good summary. Where were you when we were talking about refusing Catholic school admittance to “children” of homosexual couples?

There the going thing was pretty much too bad so sad about the kids; their unsuitability for Catholic school was based on their sin of having two “dads.”

 

[Nohome]

Brad:

From a spiritual and biblical perspective, we are to expect the sins of the fathers to cause us to suffer.

From a citizen of a democracy perspective, we must vigorously fight unjust decisions such as these.

We must agree to both crosses.

Wow Brad, two dead ringers in one thread. You are on a roll.

Nohome

 

[Catholic29]

Diocese to appeal court decision that parishes can be liquidated; claims breach of church/state separation

Spokane, Aug. 30, 2005 (CNA) - Bishop William Skylstad of Spokane, Washington has announced that his diocese will appeal a federal court ruling which, on Friday, declared all parishes in the diocese assets which can be liquidated to pay for claims by alleged victims of sexual abuse by priests.

Bishop Skylstad, who also holds the post of president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, said in a statement released from Eastern Europe, where he is currently traveling, that

"The court’s decision has national consequences.”

“Its impact”, he said, “will be felt not just by Catholic communities but by many other church communities of any denomination, of any faith expression."

In December of last year, the diocese filed for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy protection citing $11.1 million in assets and $83.1 million in liabilities from abuse victims seeking compensation.

Diocesan parishes and schools were not included in that figure as, according to Canon Law, the bishop is only steward of them–the parishes themselves control their own actual assets.

U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Patricia Williams’ Friday decision however, ignores this fact, opining that civil property laws supersede Church law.

In her decision, Williams wrote, “It is not a violation of the First Amendment to apply federal bankruptcy law to identify and define property of the bankruptcy estate even though the Chapter 11 debtor is a religious organization.”

Lawyers for, and supporters of the diocese however, disagree.

Bishop Skylstad wrote that he would “appeal this decision because we have a responsibility not only to victims but to the generations of parishioners … who have given so generously of themselves” to build up the church in eastern Washington.

William Donahue, president of the Catholic League, called the ruling “outrageous,” saying that “At a minimum, separation of church and state means that sitting judges have no right to make determinations regarding the organizational chart of the Catholic Church. But that is exactly what’s being done.”

“By declaring all diocesan assets fair game for every steeple-chasing lawyer,” he continued, “a green light has been given to plunder the resources of the Catholic Church.”

(Right on Bill, that one is a dead ringer in my book:yup: , here’s a link to his article )

And a link for the one above catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=4749

 

[Nohome]

William Donahue, president of the Catholic League, called the ruling “outrageous,” saying that “At a minimum, separation of church and state means that sitting judges have no right to make determinations regarding the organizational chart of the Catholic Church.

I find it a bit ironic that the same Church that filed for protection under state bankruptcy laws now wants to play the separation of church and state card.

Nohome

 

[Ghosty]

From a spiritual and biblical perspective, we are to expect the sins of the fathers to cause us to suffer.

There is a huge difference between realizing that the sins of fathers cause children to suffer, and actively engaging in punishing the children for the sins of their fathers. If you don’t see the difference, I don’t see how you have any reason to use that analogy.

A father who goes to jail for his crime causes his children to suffer, but it is not the same as sending the children to jail because the father commited a crime.

We suffer for the sins of Adam and Eve, but we are not personally guilty of them, and we are not made to make penance for them. These laws are designed to force penance on the innocent on behalf of the guilty, and that is unjust.

 

[Catholic29]

Ghosty:

There is a huge difference between realizing that the sins of fathers cause children to suffer, and actively engaging in punishing the children for the sins of their fathers. If you don’t see the difference, I don’t see how you have any reason to use that analogy.

A father who goes to jail for his crime causes his children to suffer, but it is not the same as sending the children to jail because the father commited a crime.

We suffer for the sins of Adam and Eve, but we are not personally guilty of them, and we are not made to make penance for them. These laws are designed to force penance on the innocent on behalf of the guilty, and that is unjust.

Once again I will agree…

 

[JOHNYJ]

The diocese thought it was being smart filling for bankruptcy.It put itself under this judge , now it wants to change the rules.
As usualy the lawyers are winning, all this legal fighting must be costing the diocese big bucks.
Diocese are incorporated under American law.As such they are subject to the laws that govern such entities. Canon law has no standing in the USA.

 

[Brad]

AlanFromWichita:

That depends on whether Red Cross management was aware of it, and in their official capacity as managers finagled things around to cover it allow the employee to continue having “fresh meat” by rotating them around from one store to the other to keep from having a “scandal.” In that case, yes.

1. That is not quite how it operated although I do believe blackmail has and still does play a role.
2. All of this is incidental to the main point. That point being that all of those that receive aid from the Red Cross should not be punished because there were a few criminals in management.

Judges need to make decisions that help in reducing ills of society and increasing justice and well-being. Punishing the innocent does not do this.

 

[Brad]

AlanFromWichita:

That’s a good summary. Where were you when we were talking about refusing Catholic school admittance to “children” of homosexual couples?

There the going thing was pretty much too bad so sad about the kids; their unsuitability for Catholic school was based on their sin of having two “dads.”

I came out in favor of allowing them to attend the school which was very unpopular amongst those that I usually am in agreement with. I even debated briefly via eMail with Jimmy Aikin and Mark Brumley whom I respect and agree with very much.

 

[Brad]

Ghosty:

There is a huge difference between realizing that the sins of fathers cause children to suffer, and actively engaging in punishing the children for the sins of their fathers. If you don’t see the difference, I don’t see how you have any reason to use that analogy.

A father who goes to jail for his crime causes his children to suffer, but it is not the same as sending the children to jail because the father commited a crime.

We suffer for the sins of Adam and Eve, but we are not personally guilty of them, and we are not made to make penance for them. These laws are designed to force penance on the innocent on behalf of the guilty, and that is unjust.

My point was not that the decision was just (obviously, as the next sentence in the post indicated and clearly shows that I see the difference). I’ll say it again for clarity:

“From a citizen of a democracy perspective, we must vigorously fight unjust decisions such as these.”

My point in the first sentence is we should not expect to escape from suffering when our fathers have been engaging in grave sin.

We will pay the price one way or another. We pay it almost daily in dissenting teaching and Church ridicule. We will pay more with less priests and less assets. We will not escape it. We must offer it up for stronger priests and bishops.

As I see it, part of our sacrificial suffering is in actually fighting unjust decisions. It is all connected. Not enough Catholic laity fight unjust decisions (note Terry Schiavo, abortion, prayer out of schools etc). So we reap what we sow.

The reason I tried to draw out these distinctions and say that it is both/and not either/or is because all too often in our society of “ME”, a lot of “good” Christians run away from that which is hard.

In fighting dissent in my diocese, I have noticed many a good, orthodox Catholic run the other way once I faced a bit of persecution.

In fighting unjust decisions by the judiciary, I have noticed many a good orthodox Catholic run the other way once it gets difficult.

We need to be much stronger.

 

[barnestormer]

Nohome:

I find it a bit ironic that the same Church that filed for protection under state bankruptcy laws now wants to play the separation of church and state card.

William Donahue speaks with more authority and experience on the subject than you, so pardon us if we give deference to his conclusions over yours. (Not to mention that he doesn’t seem to be have a chip on his shoulder about the Church.)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

barnestormer:

William Donahue speaks with more authority and experience on the subject than you, so pardon us if we give deference to his conclusions over yours. (Not to mention that he doesn’t seem to be have a chip on his shoulder about the Church.)

So if it really amounts to “org charts” then that’s saying that the bishop has no responsibility or authority over diocese assets.

The bishop appoints the man who handles the assets at each diocese, with no veto from anybody as far as I knew.

If the diocese doesn’t have any “pull” over the parishes and their assets, then the parishes really ought to “get smart” and quit tithing to the diocese. That way they’re not funding to the evil. See how long that priest stays in line, and then tell me about organizational charts and responsibility.

Of course the person defending the Catholic side would say this. He’s desperate, not prophetic on this issue it looks like to me.

Alan

 

[Nohome]

barnestormer:

William Donahue speaks with more authority and experience on the subject than you, so pardon us if we give deference to his conclusions over yours. (Not to mention that he doesn’t seem to be have a chip on his shoulder about the Church.)

Mr. Donahue speaks with different authority and experience than me. No pardon necessary, you are entitled to your own opinion.

Chip or no, irony is irony.

Nohome

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

Look here, though. You treat the subject as if all of the bishops who headed the diocese, and all of the priests in the diocese are guilty. There will be priests whose parishes (I daresay most priests) are “liquidated” who were perfectly innocent, and followed perfectly their vows to celibacy for the Kingdom.

The nationwide percentage of priests who commited the said crime is 0.7%. Less than one per-cent are guilty. That means that 99.3% of the priests will lose parishes over crimes which they did not commit! This is outrageous, greedy, capitalistic, anti-Catholic, downright blasphemy!

May the Lord God save us from such things.

-Servus Pio XII

Sancte-Sancte-Sancte
Credo in Unum Deum

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