St. Andrew's Catholic Parish will carry banner in Portland's Pride Parade

[holyrood]

I’ve read through the comments - These parishes are not “witnessing” to anyone. They’re openly accepting and even enabling homosexuality. These people need truth and leadership, not a friend in the Holy Church. What in the world is wrong with this archdiocese.

This is exactly it. Unless I’m completely misunderstanding, they are not marching in this parade to evangelize and lead gays and lesbians to Christ and communion with Catholic teaching. They are, by their presence, endorsing behavior very specifically against Christian teaching.

 

[gracepoole]

This is exactly it. Unless I’m completely misunderstanding, they are not marching in this parade to evangelize and lead gays and lesbians to Christ and communion with Catholic teaching. They are, by their presence, endorsing behavior very specifically against Christian teaching.

But that seems contradictory to what’s included in the article:

“‘The Community of Welcoming Congregations stands with and supports local Catholic parishes that want to bring a message of love and hope to the LGBT community,’ Wilkins said.”

and…

"The official teaching of the Catholic Church is that homosexual acts are contrary to natural law and incompatible with living a Christian life. But 2006 pastoral guidelines from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops say the church must welcome homosexuals to full and active participation in the faith. St. Andrew’s bulletin insert quoted the document.

‘Essential to the success of ministry to persons with a homosexual inclination will be the support and leadership of the bishop and other pastoral leaders,’ the guidelines read. ‘This is particularly important because more than a few persons with a homosexual inclination feel themselves to be unwelcome and rejected.’

How many feel unwelcome became evident Thursday when the Pew Research Center released the findings of an April survey on the religious attitudes of lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgender adults. Eight in ten adults said the Catholic Church, along with Islam and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, were ‘unfriendly’ to the LGBT community.

Kelly summarized the reasons that parishioners are insisting on carrying their banner in one word: visibility.

Joy Wallace, a member of St. Andrew’s since 1998, says it is common for members of the gay community and their advocates to seek out St. Andrew’s because they’ve seen the parish represented in the annual Pride Parade."

 

[holyrood]

The question is: do they equate ‘welcomed’ with ‘behavior condoned?’

 

[LisaA]

I go to Pride every year and I know for a fact that many of the churches which participate in the parades and set up booths at the festivals are not there to “promote a homosexual lifestyle.”

My how charitable. And people wonder why 8 in 10 don’t feel welcome. I don’t think you understand what Pride is about.

I think there’s something to be said for parishioners and religious lay people in general who have the tact to say that we love and welcome the sinner but your personal sins are none of our business. How many people do you think, on both sides of this discussion, would respond well to being ambushed on the street by someone lecturing you about what they think your sins are and threaten fire and brimstone? Those people show up every year too and they are maligned and ignored. Guarantee you that anyone who approaches another person with kindness and welcoming will produce greater results than someone who approaches another person and says something to the effect of ‘Hi, I’m Jane Doe, I’m a parishioner at so and so Church, and we think you are disordered.’

Really a poorly formed argument EN and you even contradict yourself. I know you can do better. Let’s see if the PERSONAL SINS ARE NONE OF OUR BUSINESS THEN WHY ARE WE TO BE SEEN MARCHING IN A PARADE IN SUPPORT? You simply do not understand that personal sins do not need to be aired in public, nor do they need be affirmed by participating in bragging about our sexual inclinations. I fail to see why anyone thinks their sex life should be a public issue. Maybe you can explain.

Further who is talking about ambushing someone? You need to actually stick to the facts here and quit setting up strawmen to set ablaze. The only “fire and brimstone” I’ve seen here are your strawmen…I’ve never heard any Catholic priest or deacon or layperson for that matter “malign and demean” homosexuals.

I am quite sure homosexuals attend Catholic churches. I neither know nor need to know what they do in bed just as I don’t know what heterosexuals do in bed. To quote you EN, it’s none of my business. So zip the pants, zip the lips and everyone will get along just fine.

And FWIW if there were an Ashley Madison Pride Parade or a Sex Toys Pride Parade or a Swingers Pride Parade or a Polygamous Pride Parade, I would feel the same way. Homosexuality is not all that special EN, in fact it’s pretty ordinary. No reason to march and brag about it.

Lisa

 

[BroomWagon]

I know, the way the Episcopal Church views same sex attraction is much different than the way the Roman Catholic Church does but I have seen Presbyterian or Episcopal Churches put out ‘rainbow flags’ just to say such people are welcomed at that church.

But the line would have to be drawn at sexual behavior just as said here so often, promiscuity, pre-marital sex is not accepted in the RCC just as gay sex is not as well.

But can you let people know at least that the Church cares about them with a show of solidarity?

That would seem to be the issue, other issues, is if this is the case, why not have the Archdiocese itself march?? And what if lewd or licentious type of behavior which happens at least at some of these parades is occurring? Lots of questions.

 

[livingwordunity]

Really a poorly formed argument EN and you even contradict yourself. I know you can do better. Let’s see if the PERSONAL SINS ARE NONE OF OUR BUSINESS THEN WHY ARE WE TO BE SEEN MARCHING IN A PARADE IN SUPPORT? You simply do not understand that personal sins do not need to be aired in public, nor do they need be affirmed by participating in bragging about our sexual inclinations. I fail to see why anyone thinks their sex life should be a public issue. Maybe you can explain.

Further who is talking about ambushing someone? You need to actually stick to the facts here and quit setting up strawmen to set ablaze. The only “fire and brimstone” I’ve seen here are your strawmen…I’ve never heard any Catholic priest or deacon or layperson for that matter “malign and demean” homosexuals.

I am quite sure homosexuals attend Catholic churches. I neither know nor need to know what they do in bed just as I don’t know what heterosexuals do in bed. To quote you EN, it’s none of my business. So zip the pants, zip the lips and everyone will get along just fine.

And FWIW if there were an Ashley Madison Pride Parade or a Sex Toys Pride Parade or a Swingers Pride Parade or a Polygamous Pride Parade, I would feel the same way. Homosexuality is not all that special EN, in fact it’s pretty ordinary. No reason to march and brag about it.

Lisa

 

[ishii]

What comes first? Worship of Christ or the god of diversity? Where is their emphasis on the Sacraments? Note the second reference to diversity. I think it’s quite clear where their priorities lie. The defiance of the Archbishop’s request is another bit of evidence where they think they owe their loyalty and it’s not the Magisterium.

Lisa

Your reasoning might appeal more to Catholics who believe in those sacraments or atleast those who believe in a deity, rather than non-believers. I say that so not because I disagree with your post, but because I don’t want to see you waste your time.

.
Archbishop Sample is new. I suspect he had no idea what he was going to face here other than rampant secularization.

Lisa

Respectfully, LisaA, I disagree. If an Archbishop is assigned to a diocese like Portland, SF or Seattle, they had better know what they are in for and be prepared to deal with issues like this decisively and with authority. I say this because the archbishops in my experience have been weak and half-hearted - exactly the opposite of what our culture and Church needs at this point.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

Nothing personal, but you identify yourself as an agnostic. So we don’t expect you to see it from a Christian point of view. And your posts consistently reaffirm that you either don’t know or don’t care to know what is taught by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church on matters of faith and morals. The Magisterium isn’t important to you, but it’s important to us. Keep in mind that this is a Catholic website. You are also insulting people’s intelligence by denying what’s obvious in this parish situation.

 

[ishii]

Also…the title of the parade is a bit confusing. It doesn’t say Gay Pride…it just says Pride Parade. Perhaps it’s not confined to only celebrating one group of people? Perhaps it is open to all who feel “pride”?

 

[ishii]

I see your point and in fact sort of agree with it.

This is a community church, it’d be like if you had a Hispanic Church and they marched in the Cinco de Mayo celebration, not directly related to Church activities.

I do see St. Andrews view some, it does seem this would only be one church but that they should follow the advice of the Mother Church.

No, a gay pride parade is not like a Cinco de Mayo celebration, BroomWagon.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

Really a poorly formed argument EN and you even contradict yourself. I know you can do better. Let’s see if the PERSONAL SINS ARE NONE OF OUR BUSINESS THEN WHY ARE WE TO BE SEEN MARCHING IN A PARADE IN SUPPORT? You simply do not understand that personal sins do not need to be aired in public, nor do they need be affirmed by participating in bragging about our sexual inclinations. I fail to see why anyone thinks their sex life should be a public issue. Maybe you can explain.

Further who is talking about ambushing someone? You need to actually stick to the facts here and quit setting up strawmen to set ablaze. The only “fire and brimstone” I’ve seen here are your strawmen…I’ve never heard any Catholic priest or deacon or layperson for that matter “malign and demean” homosexuals.

I am quite sure homosexuals attend Catholic churches. I neither know nor need to know what they do in bed just as I don’t know what heterosexuals do in bed. To quote you EN, it’s none of my business. So zip the pants, zip the lips and everyone will get along just fine.

And FWIW if there were an Ashley Madison Pride Parade or a Sex Toys Pride Parade or a Swingers Pride Parade or a Polygamous Pride Parade, I would feel the same way. Homosexuality is not all that special EN, in fact it’s pretty ordinary. No reason to march and brag about it.

Lisa

 

[Faithdancer]

you don’t get bodies in the pews by bludgeoning people with a Catechism.

A paper-bound catechism book doesn’t make nearly as effective a bludgeon as an extra large Douay-Rheims or KJV BIble, the old school ones with the thick paper and leather cover. What’s inside those big heavy bibles is much more effective at bludgeoning the sinner as well

 

[markomalley]

But it’s also utterly unacceptable to sell one’s body. Meeting prostitutes where they work and ministering to them there can actually be exceptionally fruitful. And I don’t believe it affirms prostitution.

That’s not the point. And that’s not what they are doing.

I certainly hope you are not naive enough to actually believe that these parishioners are passing out tracts based upon CDF documents on homosexuality (or heaven forbid applicable quotes from Scripture on homosexuality) as they are marching in “gay pride” parades.

There is a difference between going to a place where prostitutes hang out and passing out tracts, offering counseling, offering protection and a way out, and so on, and marching in a demonstration for the legalization and destigmatization of prostitution (or in support of a “sex workers union”).

The former: no problem, great, highly commendable. The latter: not so much.

 

[Pulvis]

We are living in a society where the individual “rights” trumps God. Unfortunately, many poorly Catechized Catholics have fallen for this lie. The “I’m OK, You’re OK” mindset, along with the “Love, Love, Love” approach has led to a refusal by many within the Church to do what they should: attack sin and heresy head-on. The Church has been castrated in it’s willingness and ability to address sin, and the results are evident in Parishes all across the U.S. and Europe. This unwillingness to Preach the true ends of sinful behavior has led to a weakening of a properly formed conscience within the Faithful, especially in the younger members of the Church.

“32 Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.” Romans Ch. 1 veritasbible.com/drb/read/Romans_1

We as a Church have allowed this to happen by not asking for, and in some cases demanding, that Our Bishops and Priests teach the Faith, whole and un-abridged. For over forty years we have allowed a milquetoast version of the Faith to exist which has allowed society to decline to the level we now see. Abortion, infanticide, homosexuality, pedophilia, you name it. Every corrupt inclination imaginable has slowly entered into our society and instead of fighting for Truth, we hide in our convenient lives and look the other way. It should come as no surprise to anyone that this sin has entered into the very fabric of the Faithful to the point that Parishes now ignore their Bishop. We allowed our Parishes to become democratized, and we are seeing the results of how a small group with an agenda can destroy a Parish. Happens to the Prot’s quite often. Until Our Bishops and Priests once again begin teaching the Faith from the ambo at Mass, this descent into immorality will continue.
Venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen once said
"“Who is going to save our Church? Not our Bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops like bishops and your religious act like religious”
And
“The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it.”

True Charity is convincing the sinner of their sin, and leading them to Repentance. Not loving them into hell. Lets get busy restoring the Church of Christ to become the Salt of the Earth again, even if it hurts.

 

[BroomWagon]

No, a gay pride parade is not like a Cinco de Mayo celebration, BroomWagon.

Ishii

No one said this. Reading Comprehension is something all of us can benefit from.

 

[Lucky7]

That’s not the point. And that’s not what they are doing.

I certainly hope you are not naive enough to actually believe that these parishioners are passing out tracts based upon CDF documents on homosexuality (or heaven forbid applicable quotes from Scripture on homosexuality) as they are marching in “gay pride” parades.

There is a difference between going to a place where prostitutes hang out and passing out tracts, offering counseling, offering protection and a way out, and so on, and marching in a demonstration for the legalization and destigmatization of prostitution (or in support of a “sex workers union”).

The former: no problem, great, highly commendable. The latter: not so much.

I knew someone would pick up on the poor analogy of helping the prostitutes versus marching in a Gay Pride March. The correct analogy would be marching in a Prostitution Pride March.

If this is solely (cough-cough) about trying to get gays and lesbians to come to their church, then perhaps they could drive over to the parking lot at the March and put flyers welcoming them to St Andrews under their windshields instead.

But let’s not fool ourselves here. The reason why the majority of gays and lesbians don’t come to the Catholic Church is because they disagree with its theology about homosexual acts and do not wish to change their behavior no matter how much the Church tells them they are loved too.

 

[Lucky7]

Perhaps they are doing it as a sort of Catholic lobby…to make their presence known in that community and encourage people to join their church?

Also…the title of the parade is a bit confusing. It doesn’t say Gay Pride…it just says Pride Parade. Perhaps it’s not confined to only celebrating one group of people? Perhaps it is open to all who feel “pride”?

I think the reason they don’t call it “GAY” Pride is because it isn’t just for the gay community. It is now for the LGBT communities.

 

[fix]

*O’Donovan relayed the message that individuals could walk in the parade but that the archbishop did not want St. Andrew’s members to walk as a community. *

Ok, I don’t want to misinterpret this, so I’ll ask this question:

Is this saying that the Archbishop is allowing/supporting individual CATHOLICS to walk in the GAY parade?

I saw that too. I assumed it was not an accurate reflection of things.

 

[Robert_Bay]

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[LisaA]

I knew someone would pick up on the poor analogy of helping the prostitutes versus marching in a Gay Pride March. The correct analogy would be marching in a Prostitution Pride March.

If this is solely (cough-cough) about trying to get gays and lesbians to come to their church, then perhaps they could drive over to the parking lot at the March and put flyers welcoming them to St Andrews under their windshields instead.

But let’s not fool ourselves here. The reason why the majority of gays and lesbians don’t come to the Catholic Church is because they disagree with its theology about homosexual acts and do not wish to change their behavior no matter how much the Church tells them they are loved too.

Yes this is the point. Homosexuals seem to want to “have their cake and eat it too.” That everyone is a child of God, to be loved and treated with charity is simply not enough for them. They want to have their behavior accepted as the equivalent of man/woman traditional marriage. If it’s pointed out that homosexuality, like other sexual sins, is still a sin, results in claims that you “hate” them. No matter how much you demonstrate Christian love, which in fact does include speaking the truth, if you don’t accept, if not applaud their behavior, then all bets are off. You are a bigot, a homophobe, a hater.

However I think if you spoke to a thoughtful homosexual activist and said what if someone engages in other types of grave sins, should we still accept the SIN as well as the sinner. I hope they would have enough integrity to say no. If someone said we’re going to have a Theft Pride Parade, an Adultery Pride Parade would they think it appropriate to confirm the sinful behavior?

On another thread a poster noted something that answered a lot of questions for me as to why the necessity for public displays of sinful nature and the demand that it be accepted. Homosexuality is disordered sexual behavior, and part of that disorder appears to be the need for public display and affirmation. Maybe the person knows in their heart that this is unnatural, not life affirming and selfish rather than self-giving, but by getting others to march along, can feel they are justified in continuing.

I think it’s truly unfortunate that any Parish would want to confuse others as to the Church’s teaching on same sex attraction by appearing to support the BEHAVIOR, not simply loving the person.

Lisa