M
markomalley
Guest
Maybe the Catholic Church should change Her teachings in regard to LGBT people, then there could be effective outreach to them. (/sarc)
:banghead:
St. Andrew's Catholic Parish will carry banner in Portland's Pride Parade
- Status
:banghead:
L
LisaA
Guest
The “you aren’t Catholic” mantra as you call it was simply to point out that as a non-Catholic, you don’t accept the Church’s teachings on the subject of homosexuality. It wasn’t a pejorative but simply a statement of fact. I’m not a male. Thus I don’t understand things from a male perspective. That doesn’t mean there is something wrong with me, it just IS.
As to “ministering” to the LGBT population, what is it that you want and what are you not receiving from the Church when you ask? My impression based on your posts and reading news reports regarding the LGBT community and the Church is that the Church needs to change and accept homosexual relationships, homosexual “marriage,” and homosexual adoptions. If the Church fails to buckle under such pressure, then it’s not “effectively ministering” to this community. Am I right? What is it that you want if not to have the Church change?
No one is stopped at the door of the Parish and asked about their sexual orientation. If you walked up for Communion, even if in a state of grave sin, you would not be asked about your state of grace. If you came to our food pantry and said you needed food, no one would ask about your sexual orientation. If you needed healthcare and went to a Catholic hospital, you would not be asked about your sex life before providing what you need.
I think overall the LGBT population either doesn’t understand the Church’s position on SSA which is very charitable and demands that we show no sign of unkindness or lack of generousity, or they don’t like it and will not accept it.
I don’t think a banner at a Gay Pride Parade is “ministering” to people. It’s confusing at best and scandalous at worst. It puts both the Parish and Archdiocese in a very unfortunate position of either looking like the bad guy or following the Magisterium.
So you say, listen to the LGBT community. What is it that you want…other than for the Church to change to suit your sexual proclivities?
Lisa
L
Lucky7
Guest
I would like to know the answer to this question as well.
L
LisaA
Guest
Remember they are carrying a banner for that Parish which thus indicates the entire Parish supports homosexual behavior. If individuals wish to join in the march, fine but if a group from my Parish decided to march in support of something against Church teaching, I would be pretty upset. Everyone is entitled to free speech but don’t presume to speak for me.
Again, if we want to evangelize why not something like the St Paul Street Evangelization instead of confusing and scandalizing by presuming the entire Parish is defying the Magisterium and the Archbishop’s request?
Lisa
E
EmperorNapoleon
Guest
Robert noted in post #84 that the thread shouldn’t wander into that territory.
L
LisaA
Guest
Then why did you bring up the Church not “ministering to the LGBT community” repeatedly? We’re just trying to figure out what you (LGBT) want that isn’t in opposition to the Church?
Lisa
L
Lucky7
Guest
If that wanders into that territory then the following post you posted would too (which I don’t think it does as it most certainly relates to the OP):
I figured someone would trot out the “you aren’t Catholic” mantra eventually, but guess what. Catholics are failing miserably at ministering to LGBT people as the Church has acknowledged many times and the PEW survey confirms. If the Church wants insight into how to effectively minister to LGBT people then it should listen to LGBT people and come up with a better strategy. Participating in Pride events produces results, as the parishioners at St. Andrews have noted.
You said that we fail miserably at ministering to the LGBT community and that we should listen to the LGBT community. So we’re listening. What is it that you think we should be doing (other than attending Pride events that go against our Church teachings)?
E
EmperorNapoleon
Guest
Because that is at the center of the topic; specifics on how I think the Catholic Church should minister to the LGBT community is not unless the mod opens the thread to that kind of discussion.
L
Lucky7
Guest
Actually what you think matters since you were the one who charged the CC with failing miserably at ministering to the LGBT community. Your opinion on how we would best minister is actually the logical next step in this discussion (which still relates to the OP).
L
LisaA
Guest
Again, why did you bring it up again long after post 84? Further it’s not CLOSING the thread but warning not to go down the same rabbit trail that often accompanies threads on homosexual issues and activism.
Thus we are bringing the subject back to the thread which is on a Parish marching in a gay pride parade. Given that a number of us agree with the Archbishop, that this kind of participation is inappropriate for Catholic parishes, what should the Church be doing instead? You keep writing these provacative statements but when asked, you are unwilling to respond to sincere queries about other activities or outreach. I posted about the St Paul Street Evangelization group. That seems like a way of letting people know about the Church. Again, what should the Church be doing in response to gay pride events or other homosexual causes?
Lisa
R
Raskolnikov
Guest
That might be true if the event were about discussion of something. It is, rather, about, as is stated rather clearly, pride. A parade about gay pride is not a “let’s work out our differences” kind of event. It’s a ‘we’re proud of what we do’ event. And when it comes to differences between the Catholic Church and the LGBT community (sexually participatory LGBT community, I should say; to distinguish the person from the act, so to speak), the implied attitude of the ‘pride parade’ would then be ‘we’re right, you’re wrong.’
Now, there are undisputed overlaps between the two sides. On issues such as, for example violence against LGBT people, bullying, etc., Catholics are to oppose such things in themselves (violence and bullying) and so there is a shared interest. But to participate in a gay pride event, an advocacy event, is implicitly to assent to the belief underlying the event. If one does not want to to assent to the belief, for example, that homosexual sexual behavior is moral, then he could not, in good conscience participate in such an event.
When it comes to evangelizing to the LGBT community, there is only so much one can do. It’s not simply a question of ‘getting people into the ranks.’ It’s not a social club, remember, it is a set of beliefs, and members believe they are in the right, obviously, as if they though their beliefs were wrong, they wouldn’t hold them. In proselytizing to, say, Muslims, Catholics can voice opposition to discriminatory violence against Muslims, seek peace between Catholic and Muslim communities, encourage cultural openness by having masses in Arabic to encourage members of the Arab Muslim population to listen, and even note characteristics shared by Catholicism and Islam as a starting point for discussion. But the Catholic Church cannot and would not begin changing some of its philosophical and moral positions to those peculiar to Islam simply to make it easier for Muslims to call themselves Catholic. The same can be said of the LGBT community. People who identify themselves with their sexuality in this movement cannot really expect a great concession from the church. It asks them to give up something. One side may call it repression, the other sacrifice, or asceticism. At that disagreement, there’s really nothing more to be done. One can “agree to disagree” and part ways. But at some point there’s a bridge that simply cannot be crossed without ceasing to be what it is.
E
EmperorNapoleon
Guest
Like I said, the issue is central to the position of the St. Andrews parishioners. Expanding that into my opinion of what the Catholic Church should do is not. If Robert comes in here and says that the thread is open to that then I will respond, but I’m not getting dinged to satisfy your curiosity.
R
Robert_Bay
Guest
FINAL WARNING BEFORE I CLOSE THE THREAD
Please stay on the topic of the original post. If I have to suspend users to make that happen, I will
Please stay on the topic of the original post. If I have to suspend users to make that happen, I will
L
Lucky7
Guest
Robert, could you clarify what parts are off-topic?
R
Robert_Bay
Guest
Demanding what any community wants of the Church for acceptance, is off topic. Discussing the morality of homosexual acts are off topic. You may discuss the event that is in the news. If you wish to deviate from that, please take it up in another forum. Repeatedly demanding any response from another member is uncharitable and will get you suspended or banned.
Take any other questions to a PM
L
Lucky7
Guest
Per the article in the OP:
*The official teaching of the Catholic Church is that homosexual acts are contrary to natural law and incompatible with living a Christian life. But 2006 pastoral guidelines from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops say the church must welcome homosexuals to full and active participation in the faith. St. Andrew’s bulletin insert quoted the document. *
Here is that document:
usccb.org/about/doctrine/publications/upload/ministry-to-persons-of-homosexual-iInclination.pdf
In it, it says:
All ministry to persons with a homosexual inclination must be guided by Church teaching
on sexuality. The basis of this ministry, if it is to be effective, has to be a true understanding of the human person and of the place of sexuality in human life. “Departure from the Church’s teaching, or silence about it, in an effort to provide pastoral care is neither caring nor pastoral.”
*The official teaching of the Catholic Church is that homosexual acts are contrary to natural law and incompatible with living a Christian life. But 2006 pastoral guidelines from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops say the church must welcome homosexuals to full and active participation in the faith. St. Andrew’s bulletin insert quoted the document. *
Here is that document:
usccb.org/about/doctrine/publications/upload/ministry-to-persons-of-homosexual-iInclination.pdf
In it, it says:
All ministry to persons with a homosexual inclination must be guided by Church teaching
on sexuality. The basis of this ministry, if it is to be effective, has to be a true understanding of the human person and of the place of sexuality in human life. “Departure from the Church’s teaching, or silence about it, in an effort to provide pastoral care is neither caring nor pastoral.”
O
on_the_hill
Guest
“Parishioners from St. Andrew Catholic Church, which has a longstanding commitment to social justice issues, …”
This seems to imply that St. Andrews is unique among Catholic parishes.
To which I counter, the Catholic Church has been the predominant “social justice” organization for the past 2000 years!
At any rate, they’re wrong to march in the parade. As individuals, that’s up to their own examination of conscience. As a parish, no. It’s disappointing that they don’t understand what they’re doing.
This seems to imply that St. Andrews is unique among Catholic parishes.
To which I counter, the Catholic Church has been the predominant “social justice” organization for the past 2000 years!
At any rate, they’re wrong to march in the parade. As individuals, that’s up to their own examination of conscience. As a parish, no. It’s disappointing that they don’t understand what they’re doing.
L
LisaA
Guest
photos.oregonlive.com/photo-essay/2013/06/the_43rd_annual_portland_pride.html
Photos of the parade. I am not sure what men wearing nothing but a strip of cloth around their loins and wings has to do with social justice. It said photos of the parishes were included. I just found them:
photos.oregonlive.com/photo-essay/2013/06/the_43rd_annual_portland_pride.html#photo-12942592
Here is a group that provides assistance to AIDS victims according to the caption:
photos.oregonlive.com/photo-essay/2013/06/the_43rd_annual_portland_pride.html#photo-12942591
I agree with you, the Church takes the lead in being the hands and feet of Christ feeding the hungry and clothing the naked. Looks like the latter might have been a good idea yesterday
I will see if there is any response from the Archbishop who was out of town this weekend at a meeting. If there is anything I will pass along.
Lisa
M
Marie5890
Guest
There are extremes in any group or any community.
Most of the photos were not of people dressed in loin clothes and wings. Most of those photos were of people who are you average next door neighbor.
Most of the photos were not of people dressed in loin clothes and wings. Most of those photos were of people who are you average next door neighbor.
L
LisaA
Guest
There was a variety of outfits or lacktherof. Some outrageous, some not. But the point of the parade is to support and protect a particular sexual practice and that is why you do see the really outlandish costumes, the loincloths and wings,or men in fishnet stockings and nighties. I’m just not understanding how this ties into Catholic Social Justice which is the stated reason the Parishes marched in the parade.
I am sure the marchers were well meaning but as the previous poster noted, they don’t realize the statement made when participating in a parade to support sexual activity that is not within a sacramental marriage.
These parishes are in low income areas and I am sure they have a very active mission to feed the hungry and such. I think that sends a message of Christian love. I don’t think the marching has the same effect.
BTW your faith "catholic’ is small c. Is that intentional? I just want to understand your perspective.
Lisa
- Status