St. Louis Archbishop warns of excommunication over women's ordination

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TMC said:
Not sure I am understanding you correctly, bones_IV. Are you saying that all bishops that don’t like the Latin Mass are homosexuals? Or that all bishops that disagree with the Church on any of the issues you list are homosexuals? Or something else?
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I’m saying they are being too politically correct.
 
TMC said:
I guess we have to disagree on this. I think he wanted the publicity. Maybe for very good reasons - to let people know this is not acceptable, for example - but I would have rather he had not been so public about it. Maybe he had no choice as they were very public in their actions.
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You assuming the Archbishop’s motives. If you had ever met him or seen him in action, you would see what a truly humble man he is. He is humble, but not fearful. He is not afraid to speak out on Church matters to Catholics on unpopular topics: St Stan’s, Sheryl Crowe and the Cardinal Glennon fundraiser, Communion to people publicly in favor of abortion, Embryonic Stem Cell research. He has been ridiculed and caricatured in the editorial pages.

I wonder if you understand the role of the shepherd leading his flock. It is imperative the these matters are addressed, and not ignored so as not to appear “controversial.” I did not see a single interview in the Post Dis(grace). Do you not think the paper has been calling asking for interviews? If the Archbishop were interested in being on the front page, surely he would have loved to give an interview. But he didn’t. He confined himself to the St. Louis Review.
TMC said:
I hope you notice that each of my posts has agreed with this.
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Yes, I have, but I disagree about keeping silent.
 
bones_IV said:
I’m saying they are being too politically correct.
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OK, I understand. I understand that people are happy that the bishop is standing up on this issue, but I guess I feel were are still in the part of the sheep story where the sheep are lost, so no cheering yet for me.

I know a lot of people probably disagree with me on this, but I think that these ladies were probably very sincere in doing what they did. I think they were wrong, but I think they knew it was a serious act that would have serious bad consequences for them. I think they went ahead with it because they thought it was the right thing to do. I have trouble feeling anything but sorry for them. I pray for healing for them and those around them that have been damaged by this.
 
They were warned. They went through with it. We can consider them excommunicated. The Archbishop made that very clear.

The sad part is that they will pull others down with them by trying to administer the Sacraments which will all be invalid.

The whole darn thing makes me angry - why is it that some people have to be so darn stubborn and INSIST that the world turn in THEIR direction only, and never even consider the will of God?

I have a friend who feels that we will start to see Catholics martyred in our lifetime for the Faith - violently martyred. I start to see that this friend makes more and more sense every day.

~Liza
 
lizaanne said:
They were warned. They went through with it. We can consider them excommunicated. The Archbishop made that very clear.

The sad part is that they will pull others down with them by trying to administer the Sacraments which will all be invalid.

The whole darn thing makes me angry - why is it that some people have to be so darn stubborn and INSIST that the world turn in THEIR direction only, and never even consider the will of God?

I have a friend who feels that we will start to see Catholics martyred in our lifetime for the Faith - violently martyred. I start to see that this friend makes more and more sense every day.

~Liza
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Yeah, makes me wonder if we could see a massive chastisement.
 
Do excommunicated people go to heaven?

😦

Why would they go against the church like that. That is very sad, but I fully support the ArchBishop.
 
There is a certain bishop in So Cal that opposed the Motu Propio Latin Mass, the same bishop as one protestant poster in this forum who is a Pastor in the Calvary Chapel Church said, when discovered that two priest in his diocesis were sexually abusing a girl he just moved them to other areas were children were available. Not a good man this bishop is, and a liberal he is.
So there is a pattern here.
Look at Cardinal Law and Ted Kennedy apalling voting record.
Or at Mahoney in LA. I do see a pattern here.
 
TMC said:
OK, I understand. I understand that people are happy that the bishop is standing up on this issue, but I guess I feel were are still in the part of the sheep story where the sheep are lost, so no cheering yet for me.

I know a lot of people probably disagree with me on this, but I think that these ladies were probably very sincere in doing what they did. I think they were wrong, but I think they knew it was a serious act that would have serious bad consequences for them. I think they went ahead with it because they thought it was the right thing to do. I have trouble feeling anything but sorry for them. I pray for healing for them and those around them that have been damaged by this.
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I absolutely agree. But I think this is exactly why the Bishop had to be public about this. There are likely many very sincere Catholics that might think that this is one of those “illicit but valid” situations. How else could the Bishop ensure that noone is operating under false assumptions about the status of these women?
 
Corki said:
I absolutely agree. But I think this is exactly why the Bishop had to be public about this. There are likely many very sincere Catholics that might think that this is one of those “illicit but valid” situations. How else could the Bishop ensure that noone is operating under false assumptions about the status of these women?
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I am sure you are correct.
 
inthecloud said:
There is a certain bishop in So Cal that opposed the Motu Propio Latin Mass, the same bishop as one protestant poster in this forum who is a Pastor in the Calvary Chapel Church said, when discovered that two priest in his diocesis were sexually abusing a girl he just moved them to other areas were children were available. Not a good man this bishop is, and a liberal he is.
So there is a pattern here.
Look at Cardinal Law and Ted Kennedy apalling voting record.
Or at Mahoney in LA. I do see a pattern here.
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Two Givens -every secular problem in the world is the fault of George Bush and every problem with the Church is the fault of the Novus Ordo mass. So perhaps if George Bush celebrated the Tridentine mass peace and tranquiltiy would desecend on the world?
 
Look I`m not a rite zealot. I never been to a Tridentine mass and I love to. But i’m happy with Ordo Novo, I would love the nearest church to mine to have a Carmelite Holy Sepulcre Rite mass for the layty too.
My point is that the same liberal kooks who decide the church should bend over to secularist on abortion and women ordination are the same that oppose the TLM despite the fact that some people have petitioned to bring it back. So the will of the people is bad when it does not fit their agendas. And I sucribe to the broken window theory. A bishop that is likely to tolerate liturgical abuses is also likely to tolerate moral abuses.
What is the ideological tendency of most the Bishops under their watch the pedophilia scandal was worse?
 
estesbob said:
Two Givens -every secular problem in the world is the fault of George Bush and every problem with the Church is the fault of the Novus Ordo mass. So perhaps if George Bush celebrated the Tridentine mass peace and tranquiltiy would desecend on the world?
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Ha ha Oh so PC NOT!!!:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
estesbob said:
Two Givens -every secular problem in the world is the fault of George Bush and every problem with the Church is the fault of the Novus Ordo mass. So perhaps if George Bush celebrated the Tridentine mass peace and tranquiltiy would desecend on the world?
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And your point is…?
:confused:
 
dessert said:
No but I think this is becoming a witch hunt.
D.
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The Vatican did the same thing in 1999.

“The Congregation [of the Doctrine of Faith] trusts that, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, the above-mentioned [excommunicated] persons may rediscover the path of conversion in order to return to the unity of the faith and to communion with the Church, which they have wounded by their actions.” (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, 1999, source).

*** Charity demands fraternal correction*** (CCC 1829).

“…admonish him that the evil thus begun may not grow worse but may be corrected by your charity… Nor are you to consider that you are acting in an uncharitable manner when you thus point out your neighbors’ faults. Or the contrary, you cannot be free from blame if by your silence you allow your brethren to perish, when by pointing out their faults you might have corrected them. For if your brother had some bodily wound which he wished to hide through fear of the surgeon s knife, would it not be cruel to keep silence and merciful to reveal the wound? How more, then, are we bound to reveal that which will cause a worse corruption in the heart! … Nor is such treatment cruel, but merciful, for many must not be suffered to perish by the pestilent example of one. …Yet remember to let love of the sinner be ever united to hatred of his sin.” (The Rule of St. Augustine).

** Pope Benedict XVI** likewise asserted:
Fraternal correction is a work of mercy. None of us sees himself or his shortcomings clearly. It is therefore an act of love to complement one another, to help one another see each other better, and correct each other.
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I think that one of the very functions of collegiality is to help one another, also in the sense of the previous imperative, to know the shortcomings that we ourselves do not want to see - “ab occultis meis munda me” [from my secret ones cleanse me - Psalm 18:13 Douay-Rheims] , the Psalm says - to help one another to open ourselves and to see these things.
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Of course, this great work of mercy, helping one another so that each of us can truly rediscover his own integrity and functionality as an instrument of God, demands great humility and love.
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Only if it comes from a humble heart that does not rank itself above others, that does not consider itself better than others but only a humble instrument to offer reciprocal help; only if we feel this true and deep humility, if we feel that these words come from common love, from the collegial affection in which we want to serve God together, can we help one another in this regard with a great act of love.
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Here too the Greek text adds some nuances. The Greek word is “paracaleisthe”; it is the same root as the word “Paracletos, paraclesis”, to comfort. It does not only mean to correct but also to comfort, to share the other’s sufferings, to help him in his difficulties. And this also seems to me a great act of true collegial affection. (Pope Benedict XVI, Opening of the 11th Ordinary General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops, 3 October 2005)
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A case to point as to why these women needed to be publicly excommnicated. my wife, a convert, asked me at dinner tonight when the Church had decided to ordain women. She saw the "oridination " on the news and thought it was the real thing.
 
redtech said:
Do excommunicated people go to heaven? Not according to the Catholic Church. Jesus gave Holy Mother Church the authority to bind or looseen man.

😦

Why would they go against the church like that. That is very sad, but I fully support the ArchBishop.
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