St. Mary's reverses policy on gay employment after backlash over rescinded hire

[CHRISTINE77]

Bob Voboril, superintendent of schools for the diocese of Wichita, has said this:

“What distinguishes Catholic schools, though, is our mission. Catholic schools seek to form disciples of Jesus Christ. This formation is fostered daily by teachers, prayer, worship, infusion of religious values into curriculum and activities, and apostolic service.”

Source: kansas.com/news/special-reports/article1109800.html#storylink=cpy

If a school cannot support such a mission, perhaps it should not call itself Catholic.

Catholic schools were originally formed for Catholic children. Now all kinds of children attend Catholic schools, because they have better educational standards than public schools, so wealthy people, (or at least not poor people) whether they are Jewish, Protestant, other religions, agnostic or atheists send their kids there. (Yes there are also Catholic children there! ) In any case, all the children have to take religion classes do not but many pooh-pooh the religious teachings as do their parents. It’s no wonder these schools are losing their moral standards. It was far better when all the teachers were nuns or priests, but now most are secular. Pretty sad.

 

[JimG]

Catholic schools were originally formed for Catholic children. Now all kinds of children attend Catholic schools, because they have better educational standards than public schools, so wealthy people, (or at least not poor people) whether they are Jewish, Protestant, other religions, agnostic or atheists send their kids there. (Yes there are also Catholic children there! ) In any case, all the children have to take religion classes do not but many pooh-pooh the religious teachings as do their parents. It’s no wonder these schools are losing their moral standards. It was far better when all the teachers were nuns or priests, but now most are secular. Pretty sad.

I don’t think that non-Catholic students should necessarily be excluded, but Catholic schools are or ought to be primarily intended for Catholics of the diocese. And they should be supported by all the Catholics of the diocese, not just those with children in the schools. I am not familiar with the details of the stewardship plan of the Wichita diocese, but, as I understand it, if a family is tithing at least 8% of income to the parish, all children attend tuition free. The tithe is proportional to income, so non-wealthy parishioners are not penalized.

 

[sallybutler]

Catholic schools were originally formed for Catholic children. Now all kinds of children attend Catholic schools, because they have better educational standards than public schools, so wealthy people, (or at least not poor people) whether they are Jewish, Protestant, other religions, agnostic or atheists send their kids there. (Yes there are also Catholic children there! ) In any case, all the children have to take religion classes do not but many pooh-pooh the religious teachings as do their parents. It’s no wonder these schools are losing their moral standards. It was far better when all the teachers were nuns or priests, but now most are secular. Pretty sad.

My mother went to a Catholic school in the 40’s. They had non-Catholic students. She said they would attend an Ethics class instead of the Religion class. All kinds of children have attended Catholic schools.

 

[808Catholic]

No, it’s not do as I say, not as I do. Every single Catholic institution I have known, worked in, or have friends/colleagues who are associated with, offer welcoming inclusive atmospheres. That means gay and lesbian staff who teach with integrity. No one makes a point of it unless pushed out. The parishes, schools, universities, centers are focused on their students, mission, life together and not so much what goes on in people’s bedrooms.

I know it seems inconsistent, and perhaps it’s just San Francisco, where this is normal, but from what I see, everyone is just fine. Christ is present and all are cared for.

I understand you’re just voicing your personal experience in San Francisco but how can a Christian say God is good with us allowing our friends, family, neighbors, co-workers to continue to live in sin? Aren’t we all struggling with our own sins (and the key is we STRUGGLE with our sins) so as to reject sin, repent, and become closer to God? If we don’t say/do anything for Christ, what “brands” us Christians?

 

[808Catholic]

Hardly. That has always been the case. “My right to swing my fists stops at the end of your nose.” Rights do sometimes conflict, which is why the courts are there to resolve the conflicts.

rossum

A couple of points:

Rights come from God; they are not created/established by man. If given by man, they can be taken away.

Your hypothetical “right” to swing your fist is a crime: “intent to cause harm.” You wouldn’t have actually cause harm if your fist stopped short of my nose but you intended to. It could also be considered terroristic threatening if by your swing you meant to inflict mental anguish.

In the case of the recent SCOTUS ruling, the Justices (as a group) have ignored the will of the people as most states have voted against SSM. I acknowledge some states have voted to accept SSM and that’s their civil/legal right but not God’s will. The Justices have CAUSED the controversy because their ruling; not adjudicated between opposite parties. In effect, the Justices have acted as a “party/person” and used the power of the bench to override peoples’ elective power.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

My mother went to a Catholic school in the 40’s. They had non-Catholic students. She said they would attend an Ethics class instead of the Religion class. All kinds of children have attended Catholic schools.

So what is your point?

 

[808Catholic]

Well, christians do not have to obey any human law that is against the divine law, the divine law takes precedence over human laws. Human laws that are against the divine law are no laws at all.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I understand you’re just voicing your personal experience in San Francisco but how can a Christian say God is good with us allowing our friends, family, neighbors, co-workers to continue to live in sin? Aren’t we all struggling with our own sins (and the key is we STRUGGLE with our sins) so as to reject sin, repent, and become closer to God? If we don’t say/do anything for Christ, what “brands” us Christians?

Isn’t there something in Matthew’s gospel that talks about not focusing so much on the speck in another person’s eye?

I don’t think I have any right to look at my brother and sister in Christ pointing fingers and naming sins. That is between an individual and God.

I ask instead, where is Christ in that person? And then I love. I think that’s what we’re asked to do, not accuse anyone.

 

[808Catholic]

The Church does care what goes on in people’s bedrooms. Did you every read “Humanae Vitae”? It does not condone people of the same sex engaging in sexual behavior together. I would venture to say most gay and lesbian people do condone it.

San Francisco has had its own dust-up in the recent past with morality clauses for school teachers… that showed a nasty anti-bishop / anti-authority antagonism and smug disregard for Church teaching on the part of some so-called Catholics in the Bay area. Just because everybody “seems fine” with inconsistency down there doesn’t make it follow that it is good.

God bless Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone!

@ComplineSanFran is not a Catholic so may not have the benefit of reading the Papal encyclical Humanae Vitae.

 

[808Catholic]

Isn’t there something in Matthew’s gospel that talks about not focusing so much on the speck in another person’s eye?

I don’t think I have any right to look at my brother and sister in Christ pointing fingers and naming sins. That is between an individual and God.

I ask instead, where is Christ in that person? And then I love. I think that’s what we’re asked to do, not accuse anyone.

A counter point: why are Christians asked to spread the Gospel? Are we ignoring the planks in our eyes to point out the specks in others’ eyes? Or do we spread the Word because we love all our brothers and sisters?

If God didn’t want us to help our brothers and sisters, why would He have sent His Only Son to die on the cross for our sins? Jesus didn’t commit any sins; He wasn’t responsible for our sinful lives that turn us away from God. Jesus is our example to follow even in our sinful nature. He tells us to go and sin no more; not continue sinning and all will be fine. Despite our sins, we need to help others to heaven and this sometimes requires us to attempt helping them even if we have logs in our eyes.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

A counter point: why are Christians asked to spread the Gospel? Are we ignoring the planks in our eyes to point out the specks in others’ eyes? Or do we spread the Word because we love all our brothers and sisters?

If God didn’t want us to help our brothers and sisters, why would He have sent His Only Son to die on the cross for our sins? Jesus didn’t commit any sins; He wasn’t responsible for our sinful lives that turn us away from God. Jesus is our example to follow even in our sinful nature. He tells us to go and sin no more; not continue sinning and all will be fine. Despite our sins, we need to help others to heaven and this sometimes requires us to attempt helping them even if we have logs in our eyes.

Amen - good point!

 

[CHRISTINE77]

My mother went to a Catholic school in the 40’s. They had non-Catholic students. She said they would attend an Ethics class instead of the Religion class. All kinds of children have attended Catholic schools.

I’m not calling your mom a liar, but I have never heard of this. What school did she attend?

 

[rossum]

Rights come from God; they are not created/established by man. If given by man, they can be taken away.

Legal rights as specified in the Constitution and in law come from man, not God. Since we are discussing SCOTUS here, then we are talking about legal rights.

Your hypothetical “right” to swing your fist is a crime:

So, every time a sportsman punches the air in celebration they are committing a crime? Your police must be really lax about enforcing the law then.

Is there a right to religious freedom in the Constitution? Yes. Does that right override all other rights? No it does not. My right to offer human sacrifice to my chosen god/dess is blocked by the right to life.

Rights do come into conflict, and it is the job of the courts to adjudicate those conflicts.

In the case of the recent SCOTUS ruling, the Justices (as a group) have ignored the will of the people as most states have voted against SSM.

Most states, but not all states, as you say below. Given the current polls on the subject, I suspect that taking new votes would show different results. Are rights subject to change as the electorate changes its mind on a topic? I thought that was to point of the Constitution, to prevent dictatorship of the majority.

rossum

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Legal rights as specified in the Constitution and in law come from man, not God. Since we are discussing SCOTUS here, then we are talking about legal rights.

So, every time a sportsman punches the air in celebration they are committing a crime? Your police must be really lax about enforcing the law then.

Is there a right to religious freedom in the Constitution? Yes. Does that right override all other rights? No it does not. My right to offer human sacrifice to my chosen god/dess is blocked by the right to life.

Rights do come into conflict, and it is the job of the courts to adjudicate those conflicts.

Most states, but not all states, as you say below. Given the current polls on the subject, I suspect that taking new votes would show different results. Are rights subject to change as the electorate changes its mind on a topic? I thought that was to point of the Constitution, to prevent dictatorship of the majority.

rossum

so everything’s relative to you, right man?

 

[ComplineSanFran]

A counter point: why are Christians asked to spread the Gospel? Are we ignoring the planks in our eyes to point out the specks in others’ eyes? Or do we spread the Word because we love all our brothers and sisters?

If God didn’t want us to help our brothers and sisters, why would He have sent His Only Son to die on the cross for our sins? Jesus didn’t commit any sins; He wasn’t responsible for our sinful lives that turn us away from God. Jesus is our example to follow even in our sinful nature. He tells us to go and sin no more; not continue sinning and all will be fine. Despite our sins, we need to help others to heaven and this sometimes requires us to attempt helping them even if we have logs in our eyes.

Spreading the Gospel is done in many ways. I prefer the instructions in Micah: ‘And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.’

or as God as asked me personally to do, care for the needy, the sick, and the dying.

I have a hard time understanding how God would ask a person to ‘help others to heaven’ by pointing fingers in accusations and disdain. That’s what the Church did during the Inquisitions and my knowledge of history tells me that it didn’t work out so well. Poor methodology.

You know what DID work well? Inviting those who are hungry and suffering to the table. Turning to your neighbor and welcoming him to your home. Being gracious and showing him kindness in the name of Christ.

What is the phrase attributed to St Francis? Preach often, and when necessary, use words.

 

[rossum]

so everything’s relative to you, right man?

If you can show me an absolute way to decide which of the many claims to absolute truth (Bible, Tanakh, Qur’an, Bhagavad Gita etc. etc.) is absolutely true, then yes there is absolute truth. In the absence of an absolute decider as to which of the many claims is actually absolutely true, then I will have to live with relative truth. Currently that is all that I have.

Better relative truth than nothing.

rossum

 

[CHRISTINE77]

If you can show me an absolute way to decide which of the many claims to absolute truth (Bible, Tanakh, Qur’an, Bhagavad Gita etc. etc.) is absolutely true, then yes there is absolute truth. In the absence of an absolute decider as to which of the many claims is actually absolutely true, then I will have to live with relative truth. Currently that is all that I have.

Better relative truth than nothing.

rossum

actually you have relatively nothing.

 

[808Catholic]

Legal rights as specified in the Constitution and in law come from man, not God. Since we are discussing SCOTUS here, then we are talking about legal rights.

So, every time a sportsman punches the air in celebration they are committing a crime? Your police must be really lax about enforcing the law then.

Is there a right to religious freedom in the Constitution? Yes. Does that right override all other rights? No it does not. My right to offer human sacrifice to my chosen god/dess is blocked by the right to life.

Rights do come into conflict, and it is the job of the courts to adjudicate those conflicts.

Most states, but not all states, as you say below. Given the current polls on the subject, I suspect that taking new votes would show different results. Are rights subject to change as the electorate changes its mind on a topic? I thought that was to point of the Constitution, to prevent dictatorship of the majority.

rossum

If we contain our discussion to law (which is what civil 'rights" as defined by the government), then we have nothing to discuss. In this case, the Catholic Church is in direct opposition to the ruling by SCOTUS. Period.

A spontaneous celebration by an athlete after a successful play is not the same as someone stopping a punch just short of someone’s nose. I think we can agree to that, yes?

The courts are here to interpret law and see that the law is enforced. When it contravenes God’s Law is where Christians will have to chose what to follow.

Polls are nice but our laws are determined by the electorate via a vote. If politicians believe their electorate want a change to the laws, they should follow the process and put it to a vote. That is rule of law. To dictate law from the bench, an unelected position of power, is not rule of law.

I’m not sure what you mean by the “dictatorship of the majority.” In a democratic republic, we elect our leaders with the intent of being represented by them. Yes, that means the majority rules (in theory). In this case, the government, as represented by SCOTUS, does not represent the will of the voters across the country.

 

[Jeanne_S]

A counter point: why are Christians asked to spread the Gospel? Are we ignoring the planks in our eyes to point out the specks in others’ eyes? Or do we spread the Word because we love all our brothers and sisters?

If God didn’t want us to help our brothers and sisters, why would He have sent His Only Son to die on the cross for our sins? Jesus didn’t commit any sins; He wasn’t responsible for our sinful lives that turn us away from God. Jesus is our example to follow even in our sinful nature. He tells us to go and sin no more; not continue sinning and all will be fine. Despite our sins, we need to help others to heaven and this sometimes requires us to attempt helping them even if we have logs in our eyes.

Well said!

 

[808Catholic]

Spreading the Gospel is done in many ways. I prefer the instructions in Micah: ‘And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.’

or as God as asked me personally to do, care for the needy, the sick, and the dying.

I have a hard time understanding how God would ask a person to ‘help others to heaven’ by pointing fingers in accusations and disdain. That’s what the Church did during the Inquisitions and my knowledge of history tells me that it didn’t work out so well. Poor methodology.

You know what DID work well? Inviting those who are hungry and suffering to the table. Turning to your neighbor and welcoming him to your home. Being gracious and showing him kindness in the name of Christ.

What is the phrase attributed to St Francis? Preach often, and when necessary, use words.

As you point out, the Lord asks everyone to do His work differently. He’s asked me and many Catholic to help our brothers and sisters by our actions and our words.

BTW the Inquisition was led by governments, not the Church. The Church gets a bum rap from a historical point of view.