Stay Catholic or change religions?

[guanophore]

I don’t have to say it. I’ll leave it up to the priests to announce who can not come forth to receive Christ.

Yes, CMatt, you do. If you want to call yourself Catholic, then you have an obligation to uphold the teachings of the Church.

Anyway, everyone is welcome at the Mass, and everyone is encouraged to receive Christ in their heart. Those who are not in a state of grace are urged to make a spiritual communion. Those who are not in unity, are urged to come into unity.

 

[CMatt25]

No, CMatt, I dont 'think you can show this. This scripture must be taken together with all the Scriptures that relate to the eucharist (as well as the Teaching of the Church). Clearly those persons to whom Paul is writing are “called to receive HIm”, but were doing so in an unworthy manner. Paul was clear that doing so would cause them great damage spiritually, and perhaps physically as well. It is wrong to receive in an unworthy manner, and we are to discern this ourselves, and turn ourselves before we commit sacrilege. The Eucharist is the sign of unity in the Church, and it is wrong to accept something with one’s body that one denies in one’s heart and mind.

I can show it but we probably don’t agree on what it means to discern the body by discerning Christ’s sacrifice on the cross for us and thus receiving worthily. God bless.

 

[CMatt25]

This is a non-Catholic perspective, CMatt. The Church founded by Christ has only ONE FAITH. All others are a departure from the Church He founded. We can be 100% sure of all that He has revealed, and be confident that it is correct, because it comes from Him.

While there is truth in all faiths and beliefs, the fullness of Truth is found in the once for all deposit of faith made to the Church. To reject this is to reject Catholicity for oneself.

I never said it was. Nor have I said I don’t reject some Catholicity. The Church still claims me as a Catholic though. God bless you on your faith journey.

 

[CMatt25]

Yes, CMatt, you do. If you want to call yourself Catholic, then you have an obligation to uphold the teachings of the Church.

Anyway, everyone is welcome at the Mass, and everyone is encouraged to receive Christ in their heart. Those who are not in a state of grace are urged to make a spiritual communion. Those who are not in unity, are urged to come into unity.

Guan, I’m not getting into another detailed discussion right now about who the Church calls a Catholic. The Church has its definition. And while sometimes it doesn’t seem to be the case and I know many here struggle with this teaching and have difficulty accepting it. But I would guess even the most devout CAF Catholic would know what it is. Since they follow everything else. So they know I’m certain from the most devout to the cafeteria to the lapsed to the non practicing to even excommunicated Catholics, are all still Catholic in the eyes of the Church even if not in their eyes. Peace and God bless you.

 

[Smber2c]

CCC846 “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

I don’t know who would know and not enter. But it sure sounds like the CC is telling someone if at one time they believed the CC was necessary but then later had a change of belief, they are in fact going to hell since they can’t be saved.

Hey CMatt, I won’t deny that the Catholic church (and dozens of other churches) say there are paths that lead to hell. But my point is that the church doesn’t say, “George Washington if 1500 penn. ave. shall go to hell for having committed sins x, y, and z.” They don’t know Washington’s heart, his knowledge, or his consideration before acting.

However, they will often say that doing x, y, or z will result in exclusion from heaven if a person was correctly formed/informed, commited a severe sin, understood they were sinning, and then are unrepentant…but this is totally self evident is it not?

God created Heaven as a perfect home. If God places people in our lives to tell us what His house rules are, we come to understand them, we knowingly reject them, then refuse to repent…they wouldn’t our entering heaven ruin heaven? God doesn’t hold us our, He tells us the standard, offers help, and beggs us to allow Him to draw us in. If we proudly spurn that aid/offer, He doesn’t choose hell for us, we choose it.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, I know of Matthew 16:18, but Jesus makes no mention of Catholicism, Catholics, etc. Or Popes, Priests, etc.

On another note, the Bible/Jesus also makes no mention of Purgatory, petitioning of Saints, baptizing infants, confessing to a priest, etc.

As others were stating, there are many “rules” in our Church that most people don’t understand. Sure I do, but it’s all dogma to me.

Regardless, the Lord Jesus Christ will not deny anyone who accepts him. Christ loves all, and those who know him as their true redeemer and savior will enter Heaven. To say you need to be Catholic for salvation and that its the “one true” religion is far from the truth. Yes, I am Catholic, but I don’t discern that I am practicing the only one true perfect religion. Christ is the same in all denominations, we just have different “customs” as far as I am concerned.

I guess I am a heretic… . Excommunicate me now.

Not necessarily. It may be that you just don’t know any better. People do not qualify for “heretic” unless they first knew and understood the truth, then obstinently deny it. It seems that you do nto understand the teachings of the Church. You have accepted them because they are dogma, but you also accept Protestant doctrines. Your statements indicate a lack of Catholicity in your faith.

If you have done this with full knowledge and obstinency, then you have excommunicated your own self. Maybe you did not realize this?

 

[guanophore]

It says nothing about having to go to a priest to do it though.

Were you under some misapprehension that the Catholic Church teaches otherwise?

Everyone is encouraged to confess their sins to God. Confession is the normative means God has provided for the grace of His healing and forgiveness to flow. Why would someone avoid such a great gift?

1 Timothy 2:5

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

I hope you are not confusing Jesus’ mediation of our salvation with the power He gave the apostles to forgive and retain sins.

Like I said, I am not here to argue or quote scripture. Just accept Christ, ask for forgiveness, and be the best Christian you can, and you will be accepted into Heaven. The Lord will not deny those who follow him (Catholic or not).

laneo, you might want to check your heart on this point. One does not have to come to CAF in order to accept Christ, ask forgiveness, and be a good Christian. In fact, CAF is a great place to argue and quote scripture.

 

[guanophore]

You are not Jesus and the OP is not the rich young man.

Needless to say that the OP disagrees with many of Rome’s assertions. She didn’t seem to come here to be convinced of Rome’s positions. She asked if she she go back to the Catholic Church even though she disagreed with Rome, namely about confession. Her options are to be a cafeteria catholic, the road most traveled by catholics, or find another church. IMO, the latter is a better option.

What about the option of studying what the Church teaches? Supposing she did, and realized that it is the Truth?

Your reasoning is that she should find a church that agrees with her, as if she has no obligation to determine what God might be calling her to do.

However, I do agree that no one should call themselves Catholic who is not willing to embrace the faith. Cafeteria catholics are actually protestants but they don’t realize it. They are not even well behaved protestants, since they do not reflect the life of faith. Shameful

 

[guanophore]

Lacking something is always the comeback with many CAF Catholics when someone doesn’t agree.

I give God a great more credit than that. I have faith He can forgive without having to do it with a priest. Christ taught forgiveness anyways so the priest shouldn’t be retaining anything in the first place.

Of course He can! He is not bound by the sacraments. His commandments are for our benefit, and not to constrain His grace.

Tell me, CMatt. Was it “necessary” for Jesus to apply mud to the man’s eyes to heal his blindness? Could not Jesus have cured him without this? Why was he directed to go wash? If he had refused, would God have healed him anyhow?

If Jesus wants to use the sacrament of confession to heal us of our sins, why should we reject it? It is like the man standing there with the mud on his eyes arguing “why do I have to do it this way?!”

 

[CMatt25]

Hey CMatt, I won’t deny that the Catholic church (and dozens of other churches) say there are paths that lead to hell. But my point is that the church doesn’t say, “George Washington if 1500 penn. ave. shall go to hell for having committed sins x, y, and z.” They don’t know Washington’s heart, his knowledge, or his consideration before acting.

However, they will often say that doing x, y, or z will result in exclusion from heaven if a person was correctly formed/informed, commited a severe sin, understood they were sinning, and then are unrepentant…but this is totally self evident is it not?

God created Heaven as a perfect home. If God places people in our lives to tell us what His house rules are, we come to understand them, we knowingly reject them, then refuse to repent…they wouldn’t our entering heaven ruin heaven? God doesn’t hold us our, He tells us the standard, offers help, and beggs us to allow Him to draw us in. If we proudly spurn that aid/offer, He doesn’t choose hell for us, we choose it.

Ok but if George doesn’t remain and can’t be saved, then except for not naming his name, they are still saying he’s goin to hell if he doesn’t repent something the Catholic Church defines as mortal sin and return. But it is precisely because they don’t know the heart, that they shouldn’t even deal with hypotheiticals in the first place and pronounce with certainty that even a generic unnamed George can’t be saved. And instead leave what unnamed George chooses and his final destination between himself and God. But that’s my belief and faith in the possibilty of God’s infinite mercy and love. So I don’t presume to know who even genericly can not be saved. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

Of course He can! He is not bound by the sacraments. His commandments are for our benefit, and not to constrain His grace.

Tell me, CMatt. Was it “necessary” for Jesus to apply mud to the man’s eyes to heal his blindness? Could not Jesus have cured him without this? Why was he directed to go wash? If he had refused, would God have healed him anyhow?

If Jesus wants to use the sacrament of confession to heal us of our sins, why should we reject it? It is like the man standing there with the mud on his eyes arguing “why do I have to do it this way?!”

Guan, if you want to use the Sacrament of Penance as your only means of washing, that’s fine. I’m not saying it is not a means. God bless!

 

[jmcrae]

Guan, if you want to use the Sacrament of Penance as your only means of washing, that’s fine. I’m not saying it is not a means. God bless!

Nobody is saying it’s the “only” means for all sins and imperfections. Obviously, it’s the normative means for more serious sins (ie: the sort that make your stomach queasy and keep you awake at night thinking, seriously, I did that? Man, I wish I had a do-over. We’ve all been there, I’m sure. (I’d hate to think I’m the only one … )

For the sort of things that you do by accident, or that are so small that you never remember doing them, things like saying a few prayers, making the sign of the Cross, and the penitential rite at Mass contain sufficient grace to cause the blood of Christ to wash them away. But for bigger jobs, you need more scrubbing, and more help - and for that, we have the Confessional.

 

[DebCat129]

One of the major things I don’t agree with is confession. I don’t understand why I have to confess my sins through a Priest? Why can’t I just ask God for forgivness myself through prayer? I had to do confession several times growing up and all it made me feel was uncomfortable.
Plus there are things I’ve heard that because I chose not to get married in the Catholic Church, that my marriage would not be recognized. Is that true?
Also…can my children still be baptized at ages 6 and 1?

Jlengle, you know I use to feel the same way…I hated going to confession…I always felt very nervous, and uncomfortable. Then one day I was in a Catholic book store and I picked up a little booklet…a guide to confession…I read through this book and found that though I had been going to confession… I never really understood why it was important. I felt the same way you did…Why do I need to confess…I never knew really how to examine my conscience, so I never really got anything out of confession, I feel that before I found this booklet I never really said a good confession. I can remember my first good confession like one would remember his or her wedding day…I felt something change inside me…I realized what a wonderful gift God has given us…confession…I realized that confession was for me, to help me heal my heart, my spirit, and break any strongholds in my life. Believe me we all have many strongholds that we don’t even realize… unless like me, you are at confession at least every other week. I can remember telling my sister how often I go to confession, and she said “Wow you must be really bad”. And I said “No Evonne…I just want to be better, I want to be whole…I’m so tired to being broken and being apart from God, he gave us this gift of reconciliation for US not for HIM…he is giving us an easy burden lifting, soul purifying, way home” What better way to get Gods flowing graces in your life, but through confession…I have been going to confession every other week and sometimes every week for the past 8 years, and I never miss mass, I go to mass 4or5 times a week, and it keeps me strong and vigilant, but most of all it has healed ALL my wounds…and that was not an easy task. You cant pick and choose what you want to believe as a Catholic, because you are not simply rejecting Catholic teaching you are rejecting Jesus and all he did and all he laid out for us to ensure we are reunited with him in the end…We as Catholic have the fullness of truth, and I say that with confidence be I left the Church for many years, went to many other churches but I never felt like I was home, I never could understand how and why pastors of these protestant churches would take scripture and twist it and use it out of context and think nothing of it…then I realized, it is because most…no all of them were so ignorant of scripture, they misunderstood Jesus, and thought that it was their job to interpret scripture to fit their own agenda. I’m so glad I came back…because we as Catholics have 2000 years of history…we go back all the way to Jesus 2000 years of unbroken Apostolic lineage…And who do you think compiled the Bible that the world uses?..Yes, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!..What came first…The Church or the Bible? The Church with all her sacred traditions and sacraments…sacraments that Jesus put in place…I don’t care where you go, you will never get what you have in the Catholic church anywhere else…We are the only ones who have Jesus truly present in the Eucharist, no one else was given that authority…I really hope you get down on your knees and pray to the Holy spirit to help you make the right decision, I will pray for you and your husband. God bless you and be well.

 

[Lightbee]

One of the major things I don’t agree with is confession. I don’t understand why I have to confess my sins through a Priest? Why can’t I just ask God for forgivness myself through prayer? I had to do confession several times growing up and all it made me feel was uncomfortable.
Plus there are things I’ve heard that because I chose not to get married in the Catholic Church, that my marriage would not be recognized. Is that true?
Also…can my children still be baptized at ages 6 and 1?

I’m currently in RCIA - coming from a Protestant background - and while I can see the attraction of not having to deal with things like confession, my own experience is that the Catholic church has put those things in place for centuries for a reason. Your childhood experiences are not likely to be the same as your adult experiences and you may find that approaching these things with an adult mind and understanding may help you to find a new blessing.

I would dare to suggest that you are being challenged to examine all these things for a reason - pray that God will help you to understand where He wants you to be and what he wants you to understand about the Catholic church (or any other church for that matter). If anyone can help you understand the best place for you, then He can.

Also, regarding the marriage thing - yes, you’re right. Though the assumption is that the marriage is valid until proven otherwise. Have a chat with a priest about it and I’m sure he can clear up the technicalities. I am in the same position of not having my current marriage recognised by the church. In my situation its complicated by the fact I have being previously married so I am seeking an annulment so I can have my current marriage convalidated (recognised by the church as a true sacramental marriage).

And re: your kids, I’m sure they can be baptised if you want them to!! I’m really excited that my two kids who are 8 and 6 are being baptised in just over 2 weeks. Again, if this is something you desire, have a chat with the local priest.

But the easiest way is just start to attend mass and see how you feel about it then. Go to church where you don’t know anyone if you want to stay anonymous for a while.

Best of luck!!

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

One of the major things I don’t agree with is confession. I don’t understand why I have to confess my sins through a Priest? Why can’t I just ask God for forgivness myself through prayer? I had to do confession several times growing up and all it made me feel was uncomfortable.
Plus there are things I’ve heard that because I chose not to get married in the Catholic Church, that my marriage would not be recognized. Is that true?
Also…can my children still be baptized at ages 6 and 1?

Anyone can be baptized, at any age! I was, as an adult in RCIA. The Church wants you back and will help clear the path.

Sometimes things that are good for you do feel uncomfortable at first. Do them anyway. And welcome home.

 

[laneo]

Not necessarily. It may be that you just don’t know any better. People do not qualify for “heretic” unless they first knew and understood the truth, then obstinently deny it. It seems that you do nto understand the teachings of the Church. You have accepted them because they are dogma, but you also accept Protestant doctrines. Your statements indicate a lack of Catholicity in your faith.

If you have done this with full knowledge and obstinency, then you have excommunicated your own self. Maybe you did not realize this?

I was being sarcastic dude…

 

[T_Cone3]

One of the major things I don’t agree with is confession. I don’t understand why I have to confess my sins through a Priest? Why can’t I just ask God for forgivness myself through prayer? I had to do confession several times growing up and all it made me feel was uncomfortable.
Plus there are things I’ve heard that because I chose not to get married in the Catholic Church, that my marriage would not be recognized. Is that true?
Also…can my children still be baptized at ages 6 and 1?

In James 5:16, He says “Confess your sins one to another.” Jesus also gave the power to forgive sins to the Church in Matthew 16:13-19 & John 20:23. How can you go another way when it says in scripture where to go? If you go to God, how do you know your sins are forgiven? You don’t. Jesus gave us direction in scripture that points to the Catholic Church. How were you married? most times if non-catholics are married in a protestant church, often times they are recognized as valid. I would ask your priest. Yes your kids can still be baptized. I would do that ASAP. Hope this helps.

 

[guanophore]

Yeah it’s in the Bible available in several ways including confessing to one another and confessing direct. Here’s one.

Matt 6:6 But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee.

7And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.

8Be not you therefore like to them, for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask him.

9Thus therefore shall you pray:

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.

And forgive us our trespasses, as we also forgive our trespasses

Indeed the confessional is secret! And although Vat. 2 has brought about more face to face use of confession, many parishes still have the closet with the screen. The priest is there “in the person of Christ”, to facilitate the connection of the individual with the presence of Christ in a physical way. You come across as though you have fallen into the common Protestant error that the priest is somehow and impediment or block between the penitent and God.

CMatt, I say this not just to you, but to all who share your aversion to the sacrament, it is difficult to know the power of God’s healing touch unless and until you experience it personally. When that happens you will have expereintial knowledge of how God uses this method to heal human shame.

God knows His creatures, and He has watched us hide from Him in our shame since the Garden of Eden. He has set up a way for us to be healed. Do not hide in the garden when He is calling!

 

[crazzeto]

Thank you for you help in aiding me in an impossible task. Countless numbers of books have been written on the very subject, and you are wanting an instant answer. The obvious is not so obvious in the document itself, but in the interpretation of the document.

I take this to mean you have either not read the document at all, or that you have not found what you thought you would find in the document so like some misguided clergy are now trying to rely upon the “spirit of vatican II”… Let me tell you, Vatican II isn’t the problem, the problem is there was Heresy brewing in the Church for a long time and no one knew it until Vatican II afforded what these people thought was their oppertunity to revolutionize the Church.

There were protestants that helped form it, and that is really what I was referring to.

Incorrect, there were certainly Protestants present, none made any decissions about anything that ended up in the document. As evidenced by the fact that you have failed to find any supporting evidence for what you were talking about.

There were too many questions which still need answers today. I will have to say that I would not be able to actually cite anything from the document due to the very ambiguous nature that it was worded. It states a reform outline, but often not what really needs to be reformed or how or why it is really necessary. A few points could be noted here, just to make some general assessment of protestant influences.The use of the vernacular was enough to get the ball rolling, along with the priest facing the congregation and the promotion of the person, rather than the worship of God.

The use of Venacular does not come from Vatican II but rather from Pope Paul XI, which is why Novos Ordo is named after him. Now at this point, I would like to make this note. If you have studied much about the Liturgy you would know that Mass in the Venacular is nothing new. Really if you want to trace it back to it’s roots, then it actually starts with the use of Latin in Mass. Originally our Rite celebrated in greek, but then the African provinces forgot the language and petitioned Rome for Latin, and they got it.

For the next several millenia Latin would suffice, but then by the turn of the 19th century, it was already becoming apparent that Latin might not work for much longer. Already then there were rumblings and converstations about the Mass in the Venacular (again), only this time not a single universal language as Rome was previously able to afford the Roman Rite. You can see this if you read Fr. Adrian Fortescue’s The Mass: A study of Roman Liturgy orginally published in 1913, you’ll notice his book begins with a discussion about this very subject.

The music is often banal and course

Vatican II actaully emphisised the usage of Latin Hymns and gave the Pipe organ pride of place. Other changes happend, and were allowed by Rome. Honestly I don’t see why you’re being so intolorant of different music in the Mass though. Different folks like different types of music, we are called upon to be tolarnt of what is good. You may not like the new music, but are you going to tell me it represents heresy?

and the parishioners talk too much.

Vatican II’s fault

The whole Mass is very much like being in a protestant church, but what can you do about it.

Are you serious?

It is a modernists dream that was fabricated with the aid of protestants. If you are familiar with the document, and truly understand it but cannot see the results in the New Mass, it may be that we are seeing it differently. I am a very conservative Catholic who disagrees with some of the V2 changes, not all. I will have to keep in in mind not to be so ambiguous myself in the future where I may have to resort to referring to an even more ambiguous source to prove my point. With all this, I still remain faithful to the Church, and am thankful that I have the ability to attend a traditional Latin Mass. I never want to give the impression that I believe the Magisterium to be selling out to the highest bidder here, just expressing a personal opinion, which I can say, I am not alone in. Perhaps I am just imagining things. I do believe that V2 did more good things than bad, it is simply that I feel that some parishes took it too far. It made the Sacrifice of the Mass less mysterious and more “user friendly” so people could just come as they are and forget being so formal in front of God. Relax and enjoy the drums and dancing. You have to remember the time-frame between when the document you stated was introduced and that which occurred up until today. Thankfully, this is changing with more Latin introduced, better music presented, and hopefully a more deeper reverence will come about for the Holy Eucharist. It is time to take it out of the hands of the faithful and back onto their tongues. It is the little things that make the big differences. Abuses occur due to the lack of attention paid to what is happening around oneself.

I can’t go on commenting on this, all I can say is you’ve been seriously mislead by some misguided traditionalists. I’m not knocking traditional Mass, in fact I plan on attending Latin mass starting after the 4th of July. I feel it will likely match my style of worship better, but to turn around and bash Novos Ordo, and attempt to claim that Vatican II is invalid because it’s all Vatican II’s fault Please, give me a break.

 

[guanophore]

This is totally out of context to what Jesus was teaching here. There is nothing in this passage and for that matter in this entire chapter that refers to private confession of sins.

Be careful going into scripture looking for verification of your personal belief. You can convince yourself of many untruths.

This is a teaching on prayer, that is all.

Yes, and it clearly contains a prayer asking forgiveness for one’s own sins. there is no reason that one should not ask for forgiveness of one’s sins. The more immediately this is done,the better, accompanied by an act of contrition.

this confession of sins does not replace the sacramental healing, any more than a couple making vows privately to each other can replace a formal wedding.