Stay Catholic or change religions?

[guanophore]

Good Morning Guan, since you brought me into the picture, allow me to assure you and everyone I did not, as a Catholic, in the least bit feel I was being proselytized by CARV.

I did nto take it that way either.

 I already knew I would be welcomed by various Protestant churches.  :shrug:

I am glad that you can admit that your theology is Protestant.

It is you yourself afterall who keeps saying every chance you get that my Baptism and I guess you would include Confirmation, does not make me Catholic or at least not Catholic enough.

Actually, I believe I said that being Catholic is like being pregnant, you either are, or you arent. However, it is perfectly possible for a baptized and confirmed Catholic to fall away from the faith, or perhaps in your case, never to embrace the faith. In such a case, one would be considered a lapsed Catholic, dissident Catholic, poorly catechized, or an apostasized Catholic. Calling oneself Catholic when one is in any of these states, especially in a pubilic forum such as this, is disingenous.

Whatever that means since you also say one is either Catholic or not. But anyway ii is you who every chance you get keeps saying I am Protestant! Peace.

Your theology is protestant, as you have admitted. Your posts contain anti-Catholic comments, and because you claim to be Catholic, yet deny the catholic faith, you present a stumbling block to others here at CAF.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Just as a point of information, not addressed to anyone specifically:

Henry VIII, Martin Luther, Calvin, etc. were all men who were baptized and confirmed Catholics. Indeed, Martin Luther was a priest. However . . . despite their being Catholics, they lapsed into heresy and even if they themselves may have repented at death and died as Catholics (as is said of Henry at least). . .certainly they were instrumental in establishing Protestant faiths. Those who ‘were’ Catholic and then knowingly rejected the faith were heretics. But today nearly 500 years later we have people who never were Catholic and so never ‘turned’ from the Catholic faith to be protestant; they accept protestant teachings as true teaching and thus are not ‘heretics’ if they do not know the Catholic faith is true and yet reject it.

So. . .a person can be a Catholic, remain Catholic. . .and yet in rejecting Catholicism for protestant teachings (even if they claim they absolutely are Catholic). . .they can in that rejection of Catholicism and embracing of Protestant teachings become de facto heretics like those earliest Catholics who became Protestants.

These people are the most pitiful of all. . .worse off than those who never knew Christ; certainly much worse off than those protestants who were not the ‘first generation’ and thus cannot be said to have known Catholicism and ‘rejected it’.

 

[CMatt25]

Catholics would do well not that habitually look down on others who sincerely disagree with them by labelling them ignorant.

I couldn’t have said it better. That is unfortunately a bad habit among many here. Everyone else is either ill-informed or ignorant or somehow always lacking in something. And in labeling such, they sometimes it appears miss out on how regardless of our differences, we are all united in the One most important of all. United in Him. Whom is far greater than any diffferences we might have. God bless and peace.

 

[CMatt25]

Exactly. God wants His children all miserable and unhappy. That’s exactly what a loving Father wants for His children. Some of you seem to imply that I, a fellow Catholic might be happier in a Protestant church, so maybe then I should just stay put ! :yup:

 

[qui_est_ce]

Exactly. God wants His children all miserable and unhappy. That’s exactly what a loving Father wants for His children.

You have a knack for twisting people’s posts. He did not say God wants us to be miserable. God wants us to be happy. Unfortunately, SIN, keeps us from being happy. Read the OT and see what happened to Israel whenever they fell into sin.

Good Morning Guan, since you brought me into the picture, allow me to assure you and everyone I did not,** as a Catholic,** in the least bit feel I was being proselytized by CARV. {snip} But anyway ii is you who every chance you get keeps saying I am Protestant! Peace.

I don’t think he really joined. I think he was baptized as an infant, and now he knows he is Catholic no matter what.

He seems like he is using his status as a person baptized into the Catholic Church to spread insidious misinformation about the faith, and become a stumbling block to others.

At least you gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Still waiting, why be Catholic if you don’t believe in the “rules” of the Catholic Church? :tanning::tanning:

 

[CMatt25]

It is hard to respond when you cut up your points.
I don’t understand why you insist on labeling those who disagree with catholicism as being necessariliy ignorant of it. As if it is impossible to understand yet disagree.

I understand that as a Catholic you feel an obligation to convince others to join or remain in your church. You feel it is your duty to proseylize and I accept that. I would ask you to recognize that as a noncatholic I have no such duty to convince a person to be or stay catholic. A question was asked I gave a sincere answer. And for it I have been labeled an ignorant proselytizer who is going to face God’s judgement.

I agree. I wish he wouldn’t do that. But maybe I’m just more ignorant and not as savvy in taking the cut up parts and responding to them.

And I know. I don’t understand it either. I will never understand the thinking that I am always right and you are wrong when it comes to faith and beliefs. Now if someone asks me if the grass is green outside my window today and I say no it is red, then yeah I am wrong. But in matters of faith and belief? :nope: That’s almost like saying I believe chocolate is the absolute best ice cream flavor in the universe (which I do!) :yup: and you say no strawberry. Strawberry is what you believe. Who am I to argue and label you ignorant. We both still have our eyes on the prize. Ice cream. Or in the case of our Christian faith, on Christ!

 

[laneo]

I couldn’t have said it better. That is unfortunately a bad habit among many here. Everyone else is either ill-informed or ignorant or somehow always lacking in something. And in labeling such, they sometimes it appears miss out on how regardless of our differences, we are all united in the One most important of all. United in Him. Whom is far greater than any diffferences we might have. God bless and peace.

Yeah, I guess I am one ignorant mofo, along with you. hahaha. You are right though, we are United in Him. Christ isnt “selective”. Those who believe in him, whether they are Catholic or a non-Cath Christian, they are not denied. Christ’s love isn’t prejudice. Maybe I am wrong for thinking that…if I am, then I don’t know…haha, I guess I am just a stupid idiot.

 

[CMatt25]

I would also like to see where the CC teaches that anyone is “damned”.

Here’s just one place in CCC 846 if you consider these folks “anyone”.

" they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

 

[qui_est_ce]

And I know. I don’t understand it either. I will never understand the thinking that I am always right and you are wrong when it comes to faith and beliefs.

Would you say a person is wrong if they didn’t believe in the Trinity, yet called himself a Christian?

Now if someone asks me if the grass is green outside my window today and I say no it is red, then yeah I am wrong.

What if the person is color blind and the green grass looks red to him?

But in matters of faith and belief? :nope:

So why don’t you just call yourself a Muslim?

That’s almost like saying I believe chocolate is the absolutre best ice cream flavor in the universe (which I do!) :yup: and you say no strawberry. Strawbery is what you believe. ** We both still have our eyes on the prize. ** Ice cream. Or in the case of our Chrisitan faith, on Christ!

Who are you to argue that Jesus is the prize? A Muslim would disagree with you on that.

Have you ever been on the Islam threads? Would you defend your Christian faith there, or is one religion as good as another in your belief system?

 

[CMatt25]

The Catholic Church and the Episcopal Church are very different. The Catholic Church teaches that if you don’t accept certain teaching, pretty much the whole CCC, then you are a heretic and you must refrain from communion and repent or burn. Protestants churches often times don’t have such a comprehensive list of required beliefs.

No requirement to refrain from Communion? What a novel idea. Oh no wait I already knew that. And it really isn’t all that novel. As long as you believe in Him, Christ already said He would turn no one away when called to Him by the Father. (Jn 6:37) And ppl wonder why you said they are welcoming!

 

[qui_est_ce]

No requirement to refrain from Communion?

What is Communion?

 

[CMatt25]

He embodies Christ in a way that is physically present. I hope you are not expecting me to be able to explain the mysteries?!

Ok, well, you may be right, and I just did not agree, or maybe I did not see them, or maybe I could not fathom how they were benefits, so please help me again!

How is it of any benefit to be an apostasized Catholic, or excommunicated?

No, CMatt. When you listen to Fr. Corapi it will become clear that no one who has an informed conscience will reject the teachings of the Church.

Guan, of course I do not expect you to explain the mysteries of FAITH.

Sigh. Ok Guan let me repeat some. We will know for a fact any benefits when we meet Him face to face or He comes again whichever is first. But in the meantime you can worship in the CC. And She’s there for ya if you want to use the Sacraments of Reconciliation as a means to receive forgiveness. There’s always the prayers of the faithful. Those might come in handy when we die.

And Guan, I hear so much about Fr Corapi on these forums that I’m almost expecting God to choose him the next Pope!

 

[CMatt25]

Ted, first welcome to the thread, and CAF, and thank you for being honest about your affiliation. You have more integrity than others here, who pretend that they embrace the faith by representing themselves in a disingenuous manner.

What? That he IDs Catholic? Or you just like to add adjectives?

 

[laneo]

CMatt, stop before they flog ya hahaha.

 

[CMatt25]

Both of them are matters of faith, not science.

Well at least to this part I :clapping: you Guan!

 

[Contarini]

:wave:Still waiting. Why does CMatt insists on belonging to a church he doesn’t agree with. :coffeeread:

Why join the club if you don’t want to follow the rules? :ehh:

Do you think of the Catholic Church as a club? Don’t you think that’s rather frivolous?

I’m being absolutely serious here. I think that the “liberal” or “dissenting” Catholics who stay in the Church even though they question a lot of stuff are showing a better grasp of what Church means than those of you think that it’s a kind of theological club that you belong to because its teachings match your own beliefs.

Edwin

 

[CMatt25]

This is an example of becoming a stumbling block to others, CMatt. you are applauding anti-Catholic sentiment, while publicly purporting that you are Catholic.

Had you considered “dissident Catholic”. It seems you are real proud of calling yourself a Catholic, so maybe there is a way to include this without causing so much public scandal.

No but I’ve considered “Baptized, Confirmed, properly catechized, informed dissenting” but that might not fit into the space and then you wouldn’t like that either. So since the Church considers me Catholic, that’s good enough for me.

 

[laneo]

I am just joking around. I’m always cutting up, that’s just my nature. If he is mocking his faith, well, not much I can do on that part. I myself am not the best Catholic either, some would say a cafeteria Catholic, so I have no room to talk really. Let’s just all settle down and be nice.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No but I’ve considered “informed dissenting” but then you wouldn’t like that either.

I can’t speak for guanophore but for myself I would certainly feel that if you put those words next to “Catholic” on your profile, Matt, that you would be quite honest and indeed honorable in doing so.

I mean, you do dissent from some teachings and you have acknowledged that. And while we don’t agree when you do dissent, you certainly have tried to inform yourself; you’ve just come to some wrong conclusions. Even Stephen Hawking didn’t come to the correct conclusion on some of his theories (as he has noted in the last couple of years) so ‘information’ and ‘informed’ only mean that somebody has studied, not that he is guaranteed to be correct. And obviously you aren’t an ‘uninformed’ dissenter!

I think that if you could ‘let go and let God’ on the ‘stumbling blocks’ that you have personally tripped over it would be well with you. Many of us have been in positions where we have thought that we ‘knew better’ than the Church and it has taken years for some to come to the ‘real truth’, especially difficult for those who have been both prideful in their ‘informed dissidence’ as well as vocal about it–but then again, nothing is impossible with God.

 

[CMatt25]

Here you clearly state that Catholic belief belongs to “they”, as opposed to “us”. This is one of the most honest admissions you have made on CAF. Now, if you can follow it up with a more accurate self description, you will be making real progress.

Guan, “they” because I believe one can have an informed conscience, still not be able to accept everything, and yet be in a state of a good conscience.

CCC 1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.

1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters

And yet you continue to want me to act against my conscience. You don’t even want me to ID Catholic.