Staying Married after Infidelity by Wife

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detraction does not fit adultery, the violation of a public vow… Preventing harm - children, spouse… the cheating spouse… who is in mortal sin and more than likely headed to hell (can’t be forgive if you are happy you did it or continue to do it… does not grant forgiveness no matter what words the Priest speaks… God forgives through the priest and can’t forgive if their is not repentance… . If their is a mortal sin that is not forgiven due to not being repented or not mentioned then NO SINS are forgiven since the confession is purposely defective. The priest can’t see the heart, God can. He holds you responsible for your actions, which in this case is lying in confession by not being sorry or by omission.

The reputation has to be damaged… If one earned the reputation and it is known publicly… Sleeping on couch for two years, not acting as couple, seeing adultery partner in public setting and the other details of this situation and post show that the reputation of faithful wife does not exist… so can’t be injured. for more detailed examples from the ccc see below.

"The essence of detraction is the unwarranted disclosure of a hidden failing, which implies that there are occasions when the disclosure can and even should be made.

When the revelation of another person’s fault is necessary or very useful, as in defense of self or of others, no injustice is done in revealing it. This would be the case when the failing or defect is made known to parents, or superiors, or for the purpose of seeking counsel or help, or to prevent harm to others, though again, there must be adequate proportion between the lessening of a person’s reputation (which is not intended) and the good to be achieved by the disclosure (which is intended). This would cover such contingencies as anticipating unjust harm to oneself in the law courts, or even seeking consolation of a trusted friend by revealing the injustice done.

It is also not detraction to make known what has become juridically notorious, since the culprit has lost his right to esteem in the matter. " Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.,

This case would fit Fraternal correction from the CCC

Correction, FRATERNAL, is here taken to mean the admonishing of one’s neighbor by a private individual with the purpose of reforming him or, if possible, preventing his sinful indulgence. This is clearly distinguishable from an official disciplining, whose mouth-piece is a judge or other like superior, whose object is the punishment of one found to be guilty, and whose motive is not so directly the individual advantage of the offender as the furtherance of the common good. That there is, upon occasion and with due regard to circumstances, an obligation to administer fraternal correction there can be no doubt. This is a conclusion not only deducible from the natural law binding us to love and to assist one another, but also explicitly contained in positive precept such as the inculcation of Christ: “If thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother” (Matt., xviii, 15). Given a sufficiently grave condition of spiritual distress calling for succour in this way, this commandment may exact fulfilment under pain of mortal sin. This is reckoned to be so only when (I) the delinquency to be corrected or prevented is a grievous one;

continued
 
from above

IV. Offenses Against the Dignity of Marriage

ccc Adultery

2380 Adultery refers to marital infidelity. When two partners, of whom at least one is married to another party, have sexual relations - even transient ones - they commit adultery. Christ condemns even adultery of mere desire.170 The sixth commandment and the New Testament forbid adultery absolutely.171 The prophets denounce the gravity of adultery; they see it as an image of the sin of idolatry.172

ccc 2381 Adultery is an injustice. He who commits adultery fails in his commitment. He does injury to the sign of the covenant which the marriage bond is, transgresses the rights of the other spouse, and undermines the institution of marriage by breaking the contract on which it is based. He compromises the good of human generation and the welfare of children who need their parents’ stable union.

marriage is public, not private… ccc 1663 Since marriage establishes the couple in a public state of life in the Church, it is fitting that its celebration be public, in the framework of a liturgical celebration, before the priest (or a witness authorized by the Church), the witnesses, and the assembly of the faithful.

How can the community help if they do not know???
ccc1649 Yet there are some situations in which living together becomes practically impossible for a variety of reasons. In such cases the Church permits the physical separation of the couple and their living apart. The spouses do not cease to be husband and wife before God and so are not free to contract a new union. In this difficult situation, the best solution would be, if possible, reconciliation. The Christian community is called to help these persons live out their situation in a Christian manner and in fidelity to their marriage bond which remains indissoluble.159

The answer lies in the likely effects of detraction. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church notes (para. 2477), "Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them

unjust injury." (would not be unjust since violation of public vow)

A person is guilty of detraction if he, “without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them.”

So looking through the ccc for the true state of this discussion shows many times that it is not a sin to disclose the truth of a spouse who is currently unrepentant and not attempting to regain the reputation a faithful wife deserves… Sad that time is being spent trying to catch the poster in sin… You have no idea who knew and so the disclosure had no effect on reputation at all… but on the bright side many are actually learning what the Church teaches so they are culpable in the future. Like not reconciling after separation as called for in Canon law, divorcing without clergy approval, divorcing without meeting conditions of Canon law, and of course filling for divorce for selfish reasons… irreconcilable differences… and receiving the Eucharist. if you are not repenting and attempting to reconcile to make things right after confession if spouse is willing… Oh, if you are refusing to follow these sections you may be in a grave state… tough teaching… V. THE GOODS AND REQUIREMENTS OF CONJUGAL LOVE

1643 "Conjugal love involves a totality, in which all the elements of the person enter - appeal of the body and instinct, power of feeling and affectivity, aspiration of the spirit and of will. It aims at a deeply personal unity, a unity that, beyond union in one flesh, leads to forming one heart and soul; it demands indissolubility and faithfulness in definitive mutual giving; and it is open to fertility. In a word it is a question of the normal characteristics of all natural conjugal love, but with a new significance which not only purifies and strengthens them, but raises them to the extent of making them the expression of specifically Christian values."152

The unity and indissolubility of marriage

1644 The love of the spouses requires, of its very nature, the unity and indissolubility of the spouses’ community of persons, which embraces their entire life: "so they are no longer two, but one flesh."153 They "are called to grow continually in their communion through day-to-day fidelity to their marriage promise of total mutual self-giving."154 This human communion is confirmed, purified, and completed by communion in Jesus Christ, given through the sacrament of Matrimony. It is deepened by lives of the common faith and by the Eucharist received together.

1645 "The unity of marriage, distinctly recognized by our Lord, is made clear in the equal personal dignity which must be accorded to man and wife in mutual and unreserved affection."155 Polygamy is contrary to conjugal love which is undivided and exclusive.156
  • The fidelity of conjugal love
1646 By its very nature conjugal love requires the inviolable fidelity of the spouses. This is the consequence of the gift of themselves which they make to each other. Love seeks to be definitive; it cannot be an arrangement “until further notice.” The "intimate union of marriage, as a mutual giving of two persons, and the good of the children, demand total fidelity from the spouses and require an unbreakable union between them."157

1647 The deepest reason is found in the fidelity of God to his covenant, in that of Christ to his Church. Through the sacrament of Matrimony the spouses are enabled to represent this fidelity and witness to it. Through the sacrament, the indissolubility of marriage receives a new and deeper meaning.
 
from above

this speaks of divorce… just divorce… notice GRAVE = mortal

2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign.

The next two sections nail the issue beyond dispute… just Divorce, - notice the mention of innocent spouse not contravened the moral law… that means the other spouse… who who if not approved by clergy, could very well be guilty of a grave offense… mortal sin.

2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.

2386 It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.178

Kicker is this the normal get out of jail free card on mortal sin, not knowing??? check this out… if filing for divorce, knowing or not knowing exact teaching you are expected to find out and are culpable… You spoke the vows… how could you say you didn’t know???

IV. ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
 
Xanippe, you noted -

"It**'s always possible to make a bad situation worse.

This can’t possibly be a liberal vs. conservative issue, as it’s actually the most traditional approach to keep your mouth shut and keep private stuff private.

I’m not saying that that is the correct approach in all cases, but it’s not actually “traditional” to share marriage problems with children.

There’s way too much oversharing by parents in troubled marriages and divorces. It’s wrong to force a child to be an adult’s confidant and therapist.

Parents should be exerting themselves to make their children’s lives better–they shouldn’t be leaning on their minor children for emotional support. "**

Did you actually read the article by the researcher/professor? Might have helped your understanding.

Your answers assume the children know nothing… specifically here “Mom” is sleeping on the couch… for months… Kids are not stupid. Not telling the kids the truth gently leaves them to imagine what is happening.

Oversharing, who said over sharing… certainly telling too much is always not wise but it has not been mentioned in this thread. Who said to use Children as confidant and therapist? Leaning on minor children for emotional support… where did you see that written? To give advice based on, imagining details and expounding on those situations that were created only in your post and not mentioned as advice or by the poster is unproductive. It also deceives and taints the (name removed by moderator)ut of those joining now who may see your commentary and think the poster or someone giving advice actually said those things you addressed.

Ironically, it also impacts the reputation of the original poster seeking advice by insinuating those things were happening when you do not know they were.
 
I think we do hear about the dangers of gossip, but it is uncommon to break it out into false gossip (calumny) and true gossip (detraction).

(I even had to look calumny up just now to make sure that it was the right term.)
My husband, who reads a lot about apologetics, explained it to me. I feel I am a better person today than yesterday for knowing this!
 
Xanippe, you noted -

"It**'s always possible to make a bad situation worse.

This can’t possibly be a liberal vs. conservative issue, as it’s actually the most traditional approach to keep your mouth shut and keep private stuff private.

I’m not saying that that is the correct approach in all cases, but it’s not actually “traditional” to share marriage problems with children.

There’s way too much oversharing by parents in troubled marriages and divorces. It’s wrong to force a child to be an adult’s confidant and therapist.

Parents should be exerting themselves to make their children’s lives better–they shouldn’t be leaning on their minor children for emotional support. "**

Did you actually read the article by the researcher/professor? Might have helped your understanding.

Your answers assume the children know nothing… specifically here “Mom” is sleeping on the couch… for months… Kids are not stupid. Not telling the kids the truth gently leaves them to imagine what is happening.

Oversharing, who said over sharing… certainly telling too much is always not wise but it has not been mentioned in this thread. Who said to use Children as confidant and therapist? Leaning on minor children for emotional support… where did you see that written? To give advice based on, imagining details and expounding on those situations that were created only in your post and not mentioned as advice or by the poster is unproductive. It also deceives and taints the (name removed by moderator)ut of those joining now who may see your commentary and think the poster or someone giving advice actually said those things you addressed.

Ironically, it also impacts the reputation of the original poster seeking advice by insinuating those things were happening when you do not know they were.
Re: Oversharing

I think when the OP said he told everyone he knew pretty much, that’s indicative of oversharing. Likely he “overshared” with the children as well.
:coffeeread:
 
detraction does not fit adultery, the violation of a public vow…

Adultery is generally a private sin, rather than a public sin, so yes, detraction totally does fit.

Preventing harm - children, spouse… the cheating spouse… who is in mortal sin and more than likely headed to hell (can’t be forgive if you are happy you did it or continue to do it… does not grant forgiveness no matter what words the Priest speaks…

**Again, a wronged spouse should work with their priest and therapist with regard to saying anything to children (minor or adult) and work out exact wording. This is not something to do without expert (name removed by moderator)ut when one is feeling distraught.
**

The reputation has to be damaged…

You should talk to a priest about your understanding of detraction.

When the revelation of another person’s fault is necessary or very useful, as in defense of self or of others, no injustice is done in revealing it. This would be the case when the failing or defect is made known to parents, or superiors, or for the purpose of seeking counsel or help, or to prevent harm to others, though again, there must be adequate proportion between the lessening of a person’s reputation (which is not intended) and the good to be achieved by the disclosure (which is intended). This would cover such contingencies as anticipating unjust harm to oneself in the law courts, or even seeking consolation of a trusted friend by revealing the injustice done.

That doesn’t sound like telling children and telling literally a dozen or so other people (not counting a bunch of priests), does it? The OP has been very indiscreet–he told virtually everybody that is close to either him or his wife.

Correction, FRATERNAL, is here taken to mean the admonishing of one’s neighbor by a private individual with the purpose of reforming him or, if possible, preventing his sinful indulgence.

It’s not fraternal correction to share a wife’s sins with a dozen people.

continued
 
Re: Oversharing

I think when the OP said he told everyone he knew pretty much, that’s indicative of oversharing. Likely he “overshared” with the children as well.
:coffeeread:
Right.

One doesn’t get the feeling that his disclosures to his children or friends or family have been guided by the counsel of either his priest or marriage counselor.

At least as he describes it, it’s been very uncontrolled.

I understand that he is under tremendous emotional pressure and this is a counsel of perfection and in some respects it’s too late for him now (because the cats are already out of the bag), but for other people in the same situation, I would say listen to your priest and listen to your therapist and do exactly what they say with regard to disclosure and wording.

And it’s not too late to start doing the right thing. In my family we had a somewhat analogous situation with one of my aunties. Her husband left after treating her terribly for a while (he bought an expensive car, had her quit a state job she was about to get a pension for and then left her for another woman, leaving her with no steady job and the payments for the SUV). My auntie had a right to feel wronged, however, it took her a good 10 years to get a handle on her feelings and even after that, she’s brought a lot of unnecessary drama to her children’s major occasions, which just isn’t fair to them.

When this was all starting out, when I was a newlywed, I was very sympathetic to my auntie, but not that it’s a decade and a half later and I have a lot more experience as a parent, I can see that she did wrong to her children by not working harder at the stiff upper lip. Children need us to be strong and they need us to give them an example of dignity and self-restraint. This is not always possible, but it is worth the effort. The more I am thinking of MY FEELINGS, the less I can think about my kids’ feelings and needs and how to make their lives better under difficult circumstances.
 
It seems that mavdragon has wearied of this thread and isn’t responding anymore.

I can see where a person would feel hurt and confused and hope that the adulterous spouse can be shamed into reforming. I wonder if that strategy ever pays off, though. My guess is it doesn’t.
 
It seems that mavdragon has wearied of this thread and isn’t responding anymore.

I can see where a person would feel hurt and confused and hope that the adulterous spouse can be shamed into reforming. I wonder if that strategy ever pays off, though. My guess is it doesn’t.
you’re right, it generally doesn’t. If the basic “shame” of commandments and social norms don’t do it…“outing” the situation to everyone in the community at large only convinces them that they are justified in their actions.
That’s probably why many people were consulted, included 9 or 10 priests. There was never the answer that the OP wanted, nor did anything change. It only got worse. 🤷
 
you’re right, it generally doesn’t. If the basic “shame” of commandments and social norms don’t do it…“outing” the situation to everyone in the community at large only convinces them that they are justified in their actions.
That’s probably why many people were consulted, included 9 or 10 priests. There was never the answer that the OP wanted, nor did anything change. It only got worse. 🤷
I know someone who has been indulging an unhealthy behavior for many years, and threats of exposure to loved ones never made any difference at all.
 
I know someone who has been indulging an unhealthy behavior for many years, and threats of exposure to loved ones never made any difference at all.
Yup. At some point, I think things get a bit too far gone…to rein back in.
 
I’m still here. I’ve been reading all the posts. I’m working on my responses. Will try to answer questions posed to me and try to respond to outright speculation as to what I likely did and didn’t do. Many of those posting here are reading other peoples speculations about what I have done or not done or what they think I think or feel and then responding to that as if I said it thought it or felt it. Please stop filling in the blanks with imagination and please ask me direct questions if you want more understanding.

I read most of the responses on my phone which would be very cumbersome to try to write a response. when I do get time to sit down at a computer I will try to answer some of the questions.
 
I’m still here. I’ve been reading all the posts. I’m working on my responses. Will try to answer questions posed to me and try to respond to outright speculation as to what I likely did and didn’t do. Many of those posting here are reading other peoples speculations about what I have done or not done or what they think I think or feel and then responding to that as if I said it thought it or felt it. Please stop filling in the blanks with imagination and please ask me direct questions if you want more understanding.

I read most of the responses on my phone which would be very cumbersome to try to write a response. when I do get time to sit down at a computer I will try to answer some of the questions.
Good for you! I believe you are honest with your feelings.
 
Thank you Still Hoping for trying to understand the situation and for trying to offer help. I would just like to take exception to the comment about “the husband neglected and mistreated his wife who for the most part “put up” with his injustices.”

First, without having lived the situation no one here has enough information to judge if my treatment of my wife was neglecting or mistreating her. This kind of broad sweeping judgmental statement hurt me and made it hard for me to continue reading the rest of the much more helpful heartfelt advice later in the response.

Your right please excuse me.

Could you expand what was said about the husband to take care not to be put in a position that he may later regret? What constitutes playing up to my wife and how can I avoid falling into that pitfall? The link from Hydin to the turtle advice column suggests that pull statements should be used in place of questions because even questions can be taken as an attack by the party in the relationship who is avoiding the pursuer.

First I don’t know what you mean by pull statements. As for the position you might later regret well I mean have witnesses that know what is happening and what you are trying to do. Where I am from the woman usually gets custody of the children even if she is at fault. Pitfall- you are trying very hard to save your marriage but to what extent. If you are living with her and sleeping apart and/or arguing and/or there is tension, how do you think this will affect your children? You can PM me if you like.

Still Hoping, I still have not been able to find out from my wife why she is so put off with me. I get statements like, “I just don’t like you.” “I don’t love you any more” “It’s everything about you.” “it’s too late, I have nothing to say to you.”
Your wife is depressed and broken; she needs help both spiritually and professionally. You mentioned that she had an affair with someone who has an addiction and lives with his parents. Why, if she was in her good mind would settle for that. If she really wanted to leave you she would of. However, this situation is toxic to you and your family. You must be loving but also be firm and stand up for yourself and your family. I don’t know what exactly you should do because I don’t know the situation enough but if you are upset and it is constantly hurting you then that is something to consider. Peace.
 
Some of you have asked what advice I got from catholic priests. I cannot remember word for word what they said but I can paraphrase based on memory of what was said and my own understanding of what they said. Here are some things I think they said to me:

stay in the home. Live with her in a understanding way. Be seen but not heard by her. Let love develop again naturally.

Divorce her. God wants you to strive not just survive. It sounds to me by what you’ve said that you are just surviving. She has said that she is done with you. In my experience very few women when they get to that point ever change their minds.

Don’t divorce or consult a lawyer about divorce.

Don’t go to a marriage counselor, the failure rate of weekly marriage counseling is very high. counselors, therapists, psychiatrists will go thru the motions, give you some communication tools, but in the end they will just take your money and let you do whatever it is that you want to do and leave you to do the work required to save the marriage.

Do go to a marriage counselor. Two separate priests recommended counseling because of their own weakness in this area. One was willing to council with me for one sitting, but then he related that this went beyond his experience to advise about the unrepentant adultery. One just decline to meet with me and gave me a list of counselors.

live at your house as if your wife is far away on a vacation in another country.

This is real married life, the more familiar we are with people like our brothers and sisters there are fights, words said back and forth, but under it all there is still love. She still loves you or she wouldn’t react to you, she wouldn’t have anything to do with you, she would leave.

Pray together as a couple.

sometimes a separation for 6 months with an agreement to get back together afterwards can be helpful.

Can you forgive your spouse? If so then tell her she is forgiven.

just keep doing what you are doing, the Lord knows what is in your heart and he knows what you have been doing to save your marriage.

forgive yourself.

Think about something else rather than constantly about what your wife is doing or not doing in your marriage. Try focusing on earning more money for your family or some other positive thing.

Take a month vacation from God.

Keep this between you, and your wife and a priest. Do not share your wives sins with anyone but her, and a priest. Do not tell your wives sins to her children or talk bad about her in front of the children. Always build her up in front of her children and others. Always talk well of her to everyone so that when she hears what you have said about her to them it will soften her heart towards you. Always build up her reputation.

sex is only a very small percentage of daily married life. Don’t put so much importance on it. If you are doing the right things it will come back to the marriage on it’s own without your having to make it happen.

instead of focusing on what your wife is doing or not doing, focus instead on what you can change about yourself to be better.

Listen to Her, study her like you did when you first tried to win her heart. find out what she loves and try to give it to her.

If she is continuing to have an affair I would insist that she get herself checked for STD’s.

If you decide to stay with her and to love and forgive her, you must give her your trust. If you cannot trust her then you must just live in the house and avoid saying anything to her unless she asks you a direct question. Just stay in the house and work on yourself and your relationship with your kids.

Talk to our Deacon since he is also a married man. Ask him for advice. Which I did and he could only recommend Retrouvaille program.

This list is not complete, and some parts of it may be inaccurate, but it gives you a feel for the many different advices.
 
First I don’t know what you mean by pull statements
a pull statement is asking a question in a way that is actually a statement and doesn’t require a response from the other person. not to be confused with a rhetorical question.

instead of asking my wife if she would go with me to an event, I would phrase it this way instead. I’m going to attend an event, and I would really like it if you would go with me to the event, but it is completely up to you, there is no obligation. and then walking away without expecting a response. that’s kind of how I interpreted it, not sure if I got it right.
you can go to the link provided by hydin in his post in order to read that article for yourself.
 
Keep this between you, and your wife and a priest. Do not share your wives sins with anyone but her, and a priest. Do not tell your wives sins to her children or talk bad about her in front of the children. Always build her up in front of her children and others. Always talk well of her to everyone so that when she hears what you have said about her to them it will soften her heart towards you. Always build up her reputation.

instead of focusing on what your wife is doing or not doing, focus instead on what you can change about yourself to be better.

If she is continuing to have an affair I would insist that she get herself checked for STD’s…
Well, I will say those things back to you! Why did you decide to do otherwise, and be selfish and hurt your kids too? What did you gain from telling the people that know your wife about her sin? What did you gain by telling your kids? Instead, I think you have lost something.

And why don’t you ask your wife "If you no longer want to be with me, what’s keeping you from leaving? The door is open. ".

And I strongly recommend you go to her and tell her to forgive you, and that you won’t watch porn ever again. First, humility in front of her to recognize that you did wrong and hurt the marriage once (or twice…or more). And get the software too.
 
Wow, that is a lot of conflicting advice you’ve gotten from the priests! I’m really surprised that a Catholic priest suggested a one month vacation from God – that sounds very unlike any priest I’ve ever met.

My take on the marriage therapists is that the reason they are so often unsuccessful is that people leave counseling until their marriages are at the stage 4 cancer level. So, I’m not sure it’s fair to say that they don’t do any good.

I like the pull statement idea, but you need to be careful not to sound passive aggressive or nagging. You’ll need to pay close attention to her reactions and back off from doing it if you get a negative reaction. Also, you don’t want her to be guilted into doing things with you – that will just increase resentment.

Yes, I am not religious, so I can’t speak to the spiritual side. But, a lot of married life is the practical stuff and psychology, and I can speak to that, as a married woman with 19 years of experience.
 
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