Stopped believing in God

[Jimbo]

The best description I’ve heard of hell is that it is simply separation from God. When you are made for God, that is the torture.

Why would God permit this if he loves us? Because those who know have made the choice to deliberately live by our own rules and not God’s. Essentially it is a version of Satan’s ‘I will not serve!’.

Flip the question; if you are of the opinion that God is wrong, and that some sin ( fornication, murder, whatever) is just fine, even when God is very clear that it is against his natural law… and you died confirmed in this belief, why would you want to be in full communion with God in a very radical way when you die? God isn’t putting the screws to you because he’s angry you disagree, he’s respecting your choice to disagree with him and separate yourself from him!

What would you have him do? Know you have chosen to completely disagree with this fundamental point of natural law, but over-ride your will and your choice and have you come into communion with Him where you will have no choice but to be overwhelmed by the Divine Presence?

What you’re asking is to be co God with God; and that isn’t possible.

Now, there is all kinds of nuance there. People live in a fallen world, and many suffer through irresistable ignorance. To sin gravely, you have to have grave matter, full knowledge of the sinner, and full consent of the will.

Some people who struggle with purity lack one or two of those. (It’s grave matter because of what it is, but if they don’t have full knowledge, or full consent of the will, it may not be mortal). A man who grew up in a household of poor catechesis and secular gospel of sexual license may have seriously compromised ability to have full knowledge or give full consent.

So why enlighten them?

Because like a person who may think that smoking is fine, they are incorrect. And we want the fullness of truth for them.

 

[LoganBryce]

I said in my opinion I would rather be anywhere than non-existent. My opinion doesn’t matter because that was hypothetical. But with all the comments that have been said about how people get to hell. Why would anyone WILLFULLY choose to go there? That’s the absurdity. If I tell my child “don’t touch that campfire, it’s hot.” And they shove their arm in it, is it my fault for putting the fire there?

 

[Cjbhoward]

I found this in today’s LOTH. For some reason I felt it fit here.

“May our faith prove we are not slaves, but sons, not so much subjected to your law as sharing your power.”

 

[Jimbo]

That is a point of view, yes. But I think it misses what God is, and what you are. Our eternal souls are made for God. God is existence itself. So, following God doesn’t mean we are slaves under the lash, but rather joining in Love to God.

To be what you are, and define that as separate from God, leaves you the worse off.

I think that’s why the ‘Father’ analogy works fairly well. If my son refuses to eat healthy food because ‘he is what he is and fears no judgement’ he is ultimately only hurting himself.

 

[Wesrock]

Here we encounter different perspectives, for the Christian’s claim about salvation is that, what salvation ultimately is, is the fulfillment and perfection of the human nature.

As for perseverence and compassion, we have different ideas of what human beings are slaves to. Where you may see Christianity as something that enslaves the human person to certain commandments, Christians see it as the way out of slavery to imperfect desires and disorders within us, those imperfections which hold us back from freely choosing the good. And that freedom requires perseverance and true compassion. You see us as compromising freedom and character, but to us you appear to be doing the same.

I am not trying to start a debate here, just underlining some different points of view.

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

I am not trying to start a debate here, just underlining some different points of view.

Fair enough, but if our goals are the same, and our hearts aligned with our best intentions, why must I spend eternity in hell?

It’s not up to me to draw the line or judge who has made a valid pursuit of truth and goodness and the like, but generally speaking those who end up in hell are those who reject God/real truth/real goodness as their ultimate fulfillment and end (objective qualities, and I wouldn’t say that is arbitrary mandated, but what is natural to every human being qua human) and put other disordered attachments and values first.

 

[TheLittleLady]

The Problem of Evil : Strange Notions

 

[meltzerboy2]

How does one know that what they are missing is great if they are living in hell?

 

[humbleseeker]

Unhelpful comment tell me who God really is then ?

So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 1 John 4:16

 

[shainski]

Is hell a physical place? Is heaven? Are they states of being? If I am estranged from a loving family, am I unaware that it would be better to part of it than apart? I don’t know the nature of the next life. If God is all knowledge and all love - then I would assume that I would feel the loss of not being part of that. Maybe hell would be better if I did not have the knowledge of what I am no part of.

 

[Cjbhoward]

So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 1 John 4:16

& that’s it in a nutshell. Heaven is to be love, just like God. True love.

Not selfish love.

Selfishness leads to hell. A life, existence, void of love. An existence full of hatred, envy, violence, lies, etc…

One chooses that existence when they choose not to accept & share the love God gives freely, generously, & unreservedly.

 

[Delusioned]

One chooses that existence when they choose not to accept & share the love God gives freely, generously, & unreservedly.

That’s an admirable sentiment, but as I understand Catholic doctrine, all the love in the world gains you nothing without an adherence to the Catholic criteria for salvation. Which may be one of the reasons for the OP’s disillusionment with the Catholic Church. The character of a person has little to do with the salvation of the person.

 

[CapitalistCatholic]

I have a friend just like you. People aren’t sent to Hell. They choose Hell for themselves. After death, our wills become fixed, like the fallen angels when they decided to rebel, and so we freely choose to go to Hell. If we had the ability to beg for forgiveness in Hell, we absolutely would, but that’s not the case.

 

[CapitalistCatholic]

Just a correction. People in hell HAVE given up on these concepts, because in rejecting God, they reject everything that comes from him: love, compassion, and faith. They essentially don’t want to be with God. Also, God will not abide in Hell because Hell is the very absence of God.

 

[Wesrock]

Just a correction. People in hell HAVE given up on these concepts, because in rejecting God, they reject everything that comes from him: love, compassion, and faith. They essentially don’t want to be with God. Also, God will not abide in Hell because Hell is the very absence of God.

God is omnipresent, so he is even in hell, at least in such a minimalist fashion. When we talk of God’s absence for those in hell, we should be clear we mean his favor and grace.

 

[CapitalistCatholic]

My prior comment was quite uncharitable. Sorry for that.

 

[Wesrock]

And she shouldn’t accept a simplistic answer, that people in hell have chosen to reject love, and faith, and hope, and compassion. She shouldn’t believe it, because it’s not true.

It is true, but where you go wrong is calling it a simple answer. It’s a simple statement, a simple quip of the conclusion to the answer, but the understanding of it is not simple. It’s an onion with layers needing to be peeled back.

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

It is true, but where you go wrong is calling it a simple answer. It’s a simple statement, a simple quip of the conclusion to the answer, but the understanding of it is not simple.

Then perhaps the church could do a better job of providing a more thorough explanation. I for one, after many years, have never seen one.

Perhaps there could be better explanations for the contemporary layperson, but the why requires some basic theology. It’s unavoidable. God’s relation to creation, what God is not, what Man is, what is fulfilling for man, what is human dignity, man’s ultimate ends, etc… all needs to be grasped as pieces to the puzzle.

 

[Jimbo]

Fulfillment. Perseverance. C

I think that is the point. Those things are of God, and find perfection in God. ‘Mere Salvation’ is in fact the fullness of those things. For me honor, duty, integrity, and love are very important. But I can’t follow those things any better than by becoming a servant of God. Trying to do it our own way is going to end up corrupting that which we want. That isn’t freedom.

I can ‘live free and accept whatever suffering…’ by choosing to smoke. But in the end I’m going to end up limiting my freedom by compromising my health. I’ll limit the freedom of my loved ones by compromising my life, which they value. I’ll limit the freedom of those around me who might inhale the second hand smoke…

It is what it is.

It sounds like you have noble ideals and goals. I’d suggest you would find the fulfillment of those goals in God, not outside of him. ‘mere salvation’ is far more free than just doing what you want.

 

[PennyinCanada]

Didn’t say they should be rewarded but not one deserves unending torture no matter how bad.

So a person hears that there is a hell, and still refuses heaven, he is making a choice. Honestly, why on earth would a person not run and embrace God as a loving father? There is a war for souls going on, and the evil one has a lot of power to lie and deceive.
If you break into a store and steal all their cash, you shouldn’t be surprised if you end up in jail. Really, it’s that simple. What is there to argue about?