That’s the case for many transgendered as well. The realization that they want to be the gender opposite their gender assigned at birth is often their earliest memories. Of course as children they do not know what this sensation is, they just know it’s there.
How successful have the alternatives been?
They’re not scared, they just don’t like it.
That doesn’t make the case though, does it…
I don’t like earthquakes, either, but living in a state that has earthquakes, I just have to deal with them sometimes whether I like them or not. I don’t like Alzheimer’s, but several family members have had it and I and everyone else in my family have had to deal with it as best we can. And some people experience gender dysphoria through no fault of their own, and whether any of us like it or not, including the person who experiences the gender dysphoria, we all have to deal with it to varying degrees.OraLabora:
They’re not scared, they just don’t like it.
We used to “mutilate” women by removing their breasts to cure cancer, when today precision surgical techniques, radiation and chemotherapy protocols can, in many cases, permit removing only the cancerous lump while sparing the breast.
Well, no. “Some evidence” beginning to show is NOT sufficient to discount all other approaches or concerns. Whether or not it is a medical condition, and to what extent, is still under discussion. And merely moving the entire discussion to “medical condition” does not, by that fact mean there are NO moral implications.
Diseased organs were removed.
It is not an effective treatment, it is simply embracing a delusion.
Cancer and gender dysphoria are hardly two birds of a feather. One (cancer) is a distinctively physical condition with cellular causes and treatments. Gender dysphoria is predominantly psychological, with perhaps some physiological implications. That does not mean we can simply assert that it is a “medical condition” that needs to be dealt with by surgical or medical treatment methods.Rau:
We used to “mutilate” women by removing their breasts to cure cancer, when today precision surgical techniques, radiation and chemotherapy protocols can, in many cases, permit removing only the cancerous lump while sparing the breast.
Until something better comes along, we can’t just say to the transgendered “too bad, so sad, here’s 10 feet of rope for when you can’t stand it anymore”.
It isn’t clear to me that “dealing with” gender dysphoria entails educating even four or five year olds that gender is a choice that they can choose instead of a biological reality is merely permitting “some people to experience gender dysphoria through no fault of their own.” Perhaps indoctrinating young children to see gender as a choice and subsequently experiencing dysphoria about gender, isn’t a “no fault” proposition. Some one may be at fault.VanitasVanitatum:
I don’t like earthquakes, either, but living in a state that has earthquakes, I just have to deal with them sometimes whether I like them or not. I don’t like Alzheimer’s, but several family members have had it and I and everyone else in my family have had to deal with it as best we can. And some people experience gender dysphoria through no fault of their own, and whether any of us like it or not, including the person who experiences the gender dysphoria, we all have to deal with it to varying degrees.OraLabora:
They’re not scared, they just don’t like it.
From what I’ve been reading about sex education programs in California, children are taught the difference between sex and gender identity (a person’s internal sense of their gender) and although someone’s sex might be an obvious biological reality and their gender identity will usually be aligned with their anatomical sex, sometimes it won’t. I doubt that gender identity is usually a real choice any more than sexual orientation is a choice, but we can at this point only determine a person’s gender identity by asking them.
The brain is also a physical organ of the body and there has been for the last decade or two a convergence of psychology/psychiatry and neurology so that many, perhaps most, psychiatrists now view mental disorders as brain disorders. There has been a movement away from making a hard distinction between what is psychological and what is neurological. It’s true that we know less about how the brain works than how, say, the heart works (which is understandable considering how complex the brain is). But there have been significant advances in the last decade or so.
That isn’t what the former NDP government of Alberta nor the Liberal government of Ontario were calling for. They tried to keep parents out of the loop by mandating that teachers not inform parents of their child’s identity claims.
I wasn’t talking about the brain. I was speaking about the mind. They are very different things despite what some insist.HarryStotle:
The brain is also a physical organ of the body and there has been for the last decade or two a convergence of psychology/psychiatry and neurology so that many, perhaps most, psychiatrists now view mental disorders as brain disorders. There has been a movement away from making a hard distinction between what is psychological and what is neurological. It’s true that we know less about how the brain works than how, say, the heart works (which is understandable considering how complex the brain is). But there have been significant advances in the last decade or so.
That is your opinion, although I doubt that it’s one which is shared by most scientists or psychiatrists. According to Eric Kandel, a Nobel prize winner in medicine, in his new book, The Disordered Mind:Thorolfr:
I wasn’t talking about the brain. I was speaking about the mind. They are very different things despite what some insist.HarryStotle:
The brain is also a physical organ of the body and there has been for the last decade or two a convergence of psychology/psychiatry and neurology so that many, perhaps most, psychiatrists now view mental disorders as brain disorders. There has been a movement away from making a hard distinction between what is psychological and what is neurological. It’s true that we know less about how the brain works than how, say, the heart works (which is understandable considering how complex the brain is). But there have been significant advances in the last decade or so.
I tend to agree myself with this “new biology of mind.”
I haven’t seen any of the curricula that schools use, but I suspect that whatever they teach is geared towards concepts that a five year old can understand and grasp. People who have a lot of experience teaching children probably know how to do that. And if they live in California, their parents can opt them out if they want.
But you’re skipping over my point. I don’t know if the case has been put in sufficiently clear & demonstrable terms that we are talking about people so desperate, living so miserably, that suicide is a real risk.
That depends on whether the patient’s circumstances warrant said treatment. Remember - we see this condition talked about as a ‘delusion’, talked about in the same breath as inflammatory terms such as “gender ideology”. I don’t think there is much awareness of the extreme distress those with the condition experience. I’m hoping @Thorolfr will quote something that addresses this from the book he’s been reading.
Mastectomies are still applicable today. The operation removed a disease ridden part of the body. It had the right consequence, and it was directed at a disease-ridden part of the body. The similarity to “sex re-assignment” surgery (or whatever is the appropriate terminology these days) is weak.
We don’t know how to fix the brain/mind - that’s true. So, for the reasons given earlier, we need an excellent basis to adopt mutilation of the body as a solution.
Is there doubt that it is a “medical condition”? If not - how would you describe gender dysphoria strong enough to lead to depression and risk of suicide?
Gender dysphoria is a diagnosable condition in the DSM-5, so I would think that it would therefore be considered a medical condition which can be diagnosed and treated by a doctor.HarryStotle:
Is there doubt that it is a “medical condition”? If not - how would you describe gender dysphoria strong enough to lead to depression and risk of suicide?
I can understand why the boy, who reports he identifies internally as a girl, might be thought to be suffering from a delusion. But I think that presumes a lot and is probably wrong. If a person tells you that he is Napoleon Bonaparte - that is a delusion (for sure)! If a boy looks at his ordinary boyish chest in the mirror and can describe the female breasts that he sees - that is a delusion (for sure)! But if a boy tells you his boy’s body “makes no sense” - it does not belong because his sense of self is of a girl - that is not a delusion IMO. Our sense of our own ‘gender’ is a real thing I think and it seems as though it can be out of step with bodily reality. Something is wrong.