Maybe I should rephrase what I said. Surgery that most people believe is a good remedy for a legitimate medical purpose and need would not usually be called “mutilation.”Thorolfr:
I think that’s open to debate. To cut off a perfectly normal and functioning limb because the person suffers from an overpowering belief that the limb is not his, or does not belong, is surely to mutilate the body, even if it serves to bring relief to the mind.
Apples and oranges. You’re comparing body modification with transgenderism. Moreover, with the transgendered, anxiety is a symptom, when it is present, and not the underlying cause. It comes from fear of losing loved ones, losing employment, discrimination, fear of discovery, etc.
I think most anxiety comes from a real source. It may be disproportionate, but it is rarely imaginary. For instance, someone who has PTSD has had neurological changes in their brain in response to a psychological trauma. Serious problems like this are not “just” anxiety no matter who has it.
I don’t know; the dragon patient is also transsexual.
People who have both gender dysphoria and species dysphoria don’t seem to make the distinction you’re making. Why is that? Why is someone who has another kind of body dysphoria wrong–say, if they have ethnic dysphoria, the general population is not directed to believe they belong to a different ethnic group than their merely biological ancestors did–but if it has to do with gender, the patient knows what’s right? Only people with gender dysphoria know their reality and other people with other kinds of dysphorias concerning their body or their identity don’t? There is no internal consistency, no reason to single out primary and secondary sexual characteristics as irrelevant parts of someone’s “true” identity. That’s a red flag.
This makes the process sound like actions taken on a whim. The impacted individuals see it as “actions necessary to cope”.
OK, I’m a scientist. I do not see a single reason to single out gender as being an exception to treatment options for body dysmorphia, excepting the political one: that is, gender dysmorphia has become a political issue and other forms of body dysmorphia have not.
Did you read the introductory article: the one cited on the first post?
Is it your considered opinion that serious surgery such as removal of genitals, (which cannot produce particularly genuine looking and functioning results) is undertaken on a whim? Like a fancy hair cut?
Yes of course. Is it your view that every case is the same? I am not making a case for surgery in general nor in any particular case, but I reject the idea that every case can be categorized as acting on a whim.
Whim is your word, not mine. I’m saying that wanting to be something or deeply feeling that you ought to be something for a long time does not mean that is truly who you are. There is such a thing as objective reality, even when it is not as simple as we think when we’re small. This is a complex issue, but that doesn’t mean that physical gender is a cosmetic accident or that society ought to view it that way. Secular society may believe that our sex is an irrelevant or arbitrary aspect of ourselves, but we don’t see it that way.
I’m not suggesting anything. I think you are characterizing the situation in that way. If surgery is ever justified - it is for a pragmatic reason - it is to help the person cope with a situation that is of great distress when no less serious treatment option is available.
You miss the point entirely. It’s not about denying reality - it’s about coping with an otherwise inescapable misery. And the means are horrendous. No one should go down that path, or be advised to go down that path, unless their circumstances are truly desperate.
The sad irony is that people tout science and evidence, yet 400 years after Jim-became-Jill passes, an archeologist will analyze them and say, “It’s a dude.”
Do “things” on a whim? Sure. Cut off and mutilate genitals and other body parts on a whim? Not often. There may be exceptions.
OK, I’ll concede “whim” may not be the best word. However, I stand by my intent which was that people do things, for strange reasons, which we may not fully understand, and encouraging them to proceed with what they “feel” with make them “happy” may not be the best way to proceed.
So am I.
Can you cite me a single peer-review paper that shows that gender dysphoria and other forms of body dysmorphia are equivalent?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I did. And as a scientist, I am sure you understand the concept of an “anecdote”. This story is anecdotal, and falls into the small percentage of transgendered who regret their transition. The statistics paint a far different story.
To start, I’m not sure that all transgender people have a “past identity” and then transition to a completely “new identity,” i.e. a “past identity” as a woman who then transition to a “new identity” as a man, for example. Their past identity might have been someone who was anatomically female who nevertheless always felt that they were male. For example, Ben Barres, the neurobiologist, describes his own experience:
Barres describes the acute discomfort he felt after reaching puberty and developing breasts:
So, what exactly was Barres “past identity”? It certainly wasn’t one of a normal girl and woman. It was more of someone who was male but with a visible body that looked female.