Story: "Trans teen regrets his ‘Frankenstein’ transition."

[Rau]

We have gone over this.
Please review the thread.

I was about to say the same thing to you.

 

[Annie]

@Rau

There is the professional definition of delusion and related words and there is the everyday, lay definition.

When I say that a girl is deluding herself that the guy she likes reciprocates, I am not making a psychiatric diagnosis.

When someone says a TG who has transitioned is deluding himself and asking us to go along with that, it is not an example of the psychiatric definition.

This is probably used because most of the synonyms have a nuance of malice, and people are trying to avoid that.

Unless critics of the users of the word come up with a better word, then can we just skip the semantic games?

 

[Rau]

Unless critics of the users of the word come up with a better word, then can we just skip the semantic games?

There is no game at all. The “delusion” line entirely omits the crux of the issue - the distress inherent in the condition being discussed. There is typically no distress in walking around believing you are Napoleon Bonaparte (a delusion). Gender (and other) dysphoria are far different. That’s why your “lay” application off “delusion” is misplaced and needs to be corrected.

 

[Annie]

Yes, I understand there is distress involved, but the distress is caused by a disconnect with the TG person’s perception of him- or herself and the biological reality.

A disconnection between perception and reality is called … let me look this up.
…
…
…

Oops…

However, if the perception deviates too far from reality when it shifts from mild illusion to delusion, it can be a liability (e.g. set unattainable goals, lack of preparation for a difficult task). In fact, a substantial disconnect between perception and reality can lead people to a complete inability to function (severe mental illness is an example).

From Psychology Today

The fact that one is aware of the disconnect and choses to follow the unreality is delusion, of oneself and of others.

I am not saying that therefore we should not do what we are currently capable of, but to allow biological teenage boys to change with girls in their locker room, to say that transwoman should be counted as women, to say men can menstruate too, all of this is delusion being forced upon us.

To say this is a normal variation of being human, that some are simply born into the “wrong” bodies, and that this is is not an actual problem except insofar as others refuse to accept the conceptualization presented and to prosecute them or hound them out of wherever they are or to invade their private spaces, to refuse to allow investigation into detransitioners or alternate therapies, are all part of the activist transgender ideology, which is unfortunately being spread as truth among young people today.

So overall, I stand by my statement that this is-- in the lay, everyday sense of the word-- a delusion.

 

[Rau]

Yes, I understand there is distress involved, but the distress is caused by a disconnect with the TG person’s perception of him- or herself and the biological reality.

You continue to not grasp the nature of the problem. The dysphoria sufferer does not perceive their body to be other than what it is. If a young man of typically male features looks in the mirror and sees, say, classically female breasts, that is an entirely different problem.

By continuing to call the dysphoria sufferer deluded, whether or not you feel that is satisfactory as a layman’s description, you mischaracterise the problem and take attention away from the actual issue (distress) which is the basis of the search for appropriate care and treatment.

 

[Annie]

The distress comes from the delusion.

 

[OraLabora]

Read the WPATH standards of care, it’s not a delusion.

And since when is one’s brain not part of one’s biological reality? If the brain is wired differently because it lacked testosterone in utero, it is wired differently. That too is a biological reality. The transgendered are quite aware of the disconnect. The distress doesn’t come from delusion, it comes from this disconnect, but especially it comes from prejudice and often, plain old hate.

The condition is a reality. People need to grasp that fact and grasp the fact that the transgendered are not deluded, they are quite aware or their situation and their physiology.

 

[LilyM]

Read the WPATH standards of care, it’s not a delusion.

And since when is one’s brain not part of one’s biological reality? If the brain is wired differently because it lacked testosterone in utero, it is wired differently. That too is a biological reality. The transgendered are quite aware of the disconnect. The distress doesn’t come from delusion, it comes from this disconnect, but especially it comes from prejudice and often, plain old hate.

The condition is a reality. People need to grasp that fact and grasp the fact that the transgendered are not deluded, they are quite aware or their situation and their physiology.

I don’t doubt that it is a reality, the question becomes what we do with this reality.

I may, for all I know, be chemically, genetically or otherwise biologically hardwired to be an alcoholic or drug addict, or to eat to the point of morbid obesity. Is the solution to accept the hardwiring as unproblematic - or untreatable - and just hand me an endless supply of liquor or pills or burgers because that’s what I am hardwired to want?

And what if I become angry, depressed or even suicidal when you refuse to give me what I want? Do you say “oh, but she’s so unhappy when she doesn’t have her drink or drugs or food, just give them to her”? Do you allow the biological reality of my addiction to dictate what you do? Is it fine to validate anything and everything that I might be biologically hardwired for?

 

[Annie]

The question of its being neurological is still out; there have been no conclusive studies.

I certainly agree that TG people should not be treated badly, and I don’t even mind if they change their lifestyle or have surgery. However, there are aspects of the activist TG ideology with which I disagree, and I do not think that just because a man claims to be TG he should be allowed into women-only places.

Yes, we should recognize that a certain individual has gender dysphoria, but we also need to recognize that people claiming to be TG who have not undergone hormonal therapy for a certain amount of time still biologically function as members of their biological sex.

And I am against puberty-blocking drugs, given that we know little of their long-term effects, and especially considering that 87% of children with GD grow out of it during puberty.

 

[OraLabora]

I may, for all I know, be chemically, genetically or otherwise biologically hardwired to be an alcoholic or drug addict, or to eat to the point of morbid obesity. Is the solution to accept the hardwiring as unproblematic - or untreatable - and just hand me an endless supply of liquor or pills or burgers because that’s what I am hardwired to want?

Again, apples and oranges. You can’t compare alcoholism or drug addiction to transgenderism. One is a dependency. The other goes to the core identity of the person. You might as well compare cancer to cardiovascular disease. Both can have genetic components, but they are distinct diseases and require different treatments. What works for one doesn’t for the other, and treating an alcoholic is not the same as treating the transgendered. The only thing in common is that both are medical issues. In addiction, the patient becomes pretty seriously dysfunctional in most (but not all) cases. In transgenderism, most remain highly functional; my daughter is doing a master’s in the physical sciences, for instance.

The question of its being neurological is still out; there have been no conclusive studies.

There is however some pretty compelling evidence, for instance physical twin studies, and scientists have identified a gene that affects androgen take-up by the brain. So prudence would suggest keeping an open mind about this. It isn’t a moral issue just as being gay isn’t a moral issue.

However, there are aspects of the activist TG ideology with which I disagree,

While I find some of the activism extreme myself, I can understand why extreme prejudice has led to such activism; take the case of a transsexual in my daughter’s campus LGBQT group: brilliant master’s physics student, totally rejected and ostracized by her parents. I can’t wrap my head around parents who don’t love their children unconditionally.

just because a man claims to be TG he should be allowed into women-only places.

Well the safety issue cuts both ways. Most real transgendered women go to the bathroom for the reason the rest of us do. Go in, do your business, wash up, and get out. They are between a rock and a hard place… go to the women’s, and people get upset. Go to the men’s, and risk their personal safety. It helps when there are single-user family/handicapped restrooms.

And I am against puberty-blocking drugs, given that we know little of their long-term effects, and especially considering that 87% of children with GD grow out of it during puberty.

I also believe children should be treated conservatively, but I’ve read of a few cases that are so clearly obvious, I think the issue needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, and following accepted protocols (WPATH).

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

The issue seems to be that once a new idea comes on to the scene there is to be no stopping that idea from going to its logical and often absurd terminus.

We seem, as culture, to have lost all sense of perspective and restraint.

Back in the 1950s, women most commonly held jobs as secretaries, receptionists, bank tellers, sales clerks, teachers, etc. Now some of them want to be presidents and prime ministers. What’s the world coming to?

Indira Gandhi served as prime minister of India for three consecutive terms (1966–77) and a fourth term from 1980 until she was assassinated in 1984.

Margaret Thatcher was British Prime Minister for a good chunk of the 1980s.

Queen Elizabeth II has been Great Britain’s reigning monarch since 1953.

Marie Curie was the first person to win the Nobel Prize in both chemistry (1911) and physics (1903).

Is there something untoward about being a secretary, a receptionist, a bank teller, a sales clerk, or a teacher?

You speak of the 1950s as if they were the dark ages.

Perhaps you ought to ask women what they are happiest doing before assuming that they all want to be presidents or prime ministers.

 

[GLam1761]

I must add that in the Roman Catholic Church, Celibacy
for a priest is a tradition, what is wrong w/ a TG
male to be ordained is “he” feels called to the priesthood?
He is no different than a “normal” male seeking the
same vocation.

 

[Annie]

what is wrong w/ a TG
male to be ordained is “he” feels called to the priesthood?

A transgender man is biologically a woman. How could this person possibly be ordained?

There is a lot more to the priesthood than celibacy, which is only a discipline, some priests being married.

 

[HarryStotle]

I must add that in the Roman Catholic Church, Celibacy
for a priest is a tradition, what is wrong w/ a TG
male to be ordained is “he” feels called to the priesthood?
He is no different than a “normal” male seeking the
same vocation.

The difference is between actually being called by God to the priesthood and merely “feeling” that they are called.

It is the same difference between actually being a male and merely “feeling” that you are a male.

Reality and one’s thoughts or apprehensions about reality are two verydifferent things.

This is the confusion of current thinking about reality: that we cannot know anything about reality and therefore whatever anyone thinks or “feels” about it are indistinguishable from reality.

That would be a great error.

 

[Rau]

This is the confusion of current thinking about reality: that we cannot know anything about reality and therefore whatever anyone thinks or “feels” about it are indistinguishable from reality.

Note that confusion about reality is not a factor in gender dysphoria.

 

[Annie]

So transgender people acknowledge they are their original sex but want to be treated as members of the gender they believe themselves to be?

 

[Rau]

So transgender people acknowledge they are their original sex but want to be treated as members of the gender they believe themselves to be?

The dissonance between the reality of their body (not disputed) and the image of self their brain generates is eased by presenting themselves outwardly as the other sex.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

This is the confusion of current thinking about reality: that we cannot know anything about reality and therefore whatever anyone thinks or “feels” about it are indistinguishable from reality.

Note that confusion about reality is not a factor in gender dysphoria.

Huh?

Wouldn’t confusion about the reality of one’s gender be, by definition, confusion about one particular aspect of reality?

Now you might bring up the distinction between sex and gender, claiming that gender is a “social construct.” Perhaps, that simply means those who advocate for gender being merely a “social construct” are also confused about reality?

 

[Rau]

Please read my posts. You take as premise what I’ve not said.

 

[PetraG]

If a man feels he should become a “she”, why is the response of the Catholic Church that such a person is an evil sinner and will burn in torment forever?

You say people say that, but who said that?

Why can’t the response be that some people really are incorrectly wired and should change, while others are temporarily emotionally or psychologically challenged?

Which ones are which? Who can tell that?
What other sort of “incorrect wiring,” as you describe it, is usually treated by convincing the patient to take on a new persona and to get surgery to alter totally normal organs and a typical appearance so the patient’s appearance fits the patient’s “wiring”?
Do you see nothing wrong with that picture?