Straight answers sought about marriage/separation

[olph]

Well,

It is hard to put into words why I do not like to be close to my husband anymore. There has been no affair or physical abuse, but for years he ran roughshod over me. He has a strong type A personality, and I am a child of an alcoholic that had a very low self esteem. When we married I trusted him completely and wanted him to make all decisions for me, which he readily did. He never seemded to really listen to me, and if I did not conduct family affairs in a manner that suited him - look out. He had a nasty quick temper and would rant and rave, pout, accuse me of not caring etc. He never praised me, instead he would make comments about me being fat and lazy and ruining the kids future. It hurt, a lot. ANd I took it all. Always apologized. He never did.

I would promise to do better at keeping up with the homeschooling, paying the bills, etc. And despite my best intentions, never performed very well at anything - certainly not in his eyes.

He was never satisfied with our sex life. We have 9 kids and I nursed them all and frankly, the last thing I wanted at the end of the day was someone else pawing over me. He would be hurt by my lack of interest, and again accuse me of not caring enough to make time for him.

Anyway, thats the jist of it. My spiritual advisor told me that he had abused me and that I did not deserve to be treated like that. That was an eye opener for me. The priest was so kind and affirming compared to my judgemental demanding husband. I decided then and there that I wasn’t going to take it anymore. He needed to change, face up to his abuse of me and that was all there was to it.

For his part he felt that what the priest missed was all the good he had done for me and the kids. He thinks that any man would have a right to be upset at what he says was my “habitual” failure to discipline the children. Make them do homework, chores etc. (I did try to). He claims that any man wants a sex life and wants to know that the wife is interested even if less so than the woman.

So was there abuse? I think I was very deeply and very regularly violated. He has changed for the better in many ways, but I don’t think that deep down he has really changed.

Thanks again for all the comments.

 

[sparkle]

olph:

Well,

It is hard to put into words why I do not like to be close to my husband anymore. There has been no affair or physical abuse, but for years he ran roughshod over me. He has a strong type A personality, and I am a child of an alcoholic that had a very low self esteem. When we married I trusted him completely and wanted him to make all decisions for me, which he readily did. He never seemded to really listen to me, and if I did not conduct family affairs in a manner that suited him - look out. He had a nasty quick temper and would rant and rave, pout, accuse me of not caring etc. He never praised me, instead he would make comments about me being fat and lazy and ruining the kids future. It hurt, a lot. ANd I took it all. Always apologized. He never did.

I would promise to do better at keeping up with the homeschooling, paying the bills, etc. And despite my best intentions, never performed very well at anything - certainly not in his eyes.

He was never satisfied with our sex life. We have 9 kids and I nursed them all and frankly, the last thing I wanted at the end of the day was someone else pawing over me. He would be hurt by my lack of interest, and again accuse me of not caring enough to make time for him.

Anyway, thats the jist of it. My spiritual advisor told me that he had abused me and that I did not deserve to be treated like that. That was an eye opener for me. The priest was so kind and affirming compared to my judgemental demanding husband. I decided then and there that I wasn’t going to take it anymore. He needed to change, face up to his abuse of me and that was all there was to it.

For his part he felt that what the priest missed was all the good he had done for me and the kids. He thinks that any man would have a right to be upset at what he says was my “habitual” failure to discipline the children. Make them do homework, chores etc. (I did try to). He claims that any man wants a sex life and wants to know that the wife is interested even if less so than the woman.

So was there abuse? I think I was very deeply and very regularly violated. He has changed for the better in many ways, but I don’t think that deep down he has really changed.

Thanks again for all the comments.

I am so sorry friend. So many marriages are like yours. I do say, hold to your vows you made to honor him in richer/poorer/ sickness/health, despite what advice you may get, even on here, a Christian forum. Much advice might not be good/Godly advice. But you know better. You have such a nice family with 9 kids. Don’t ever forget that God sees all you have done bringing 9 kids into this world—He does!!! He honors you as a marvelous Mom you are. Love your H regardless of ALL his shortcomings. God counts on us moms to stick with it, I do think HE knows there are not many God-fearing men today in this world, and it is up to US women, to make our men such. to bring them up to the plate. We women can do it! Believe in your H, as I try too, hard as it is, to believe in My H.

Friend, do not give up. God will make a way.! He has for me and he will for you!

 

[SemperJase]

olph:

It is hard to put into words why I do not like to be close to my husband anymore. There has been no affair or physical abuse, but for years he ran roughshod over me.

(Click), that is the sound of the pieces falling into to place.

Oh my. I understand why you don’t want to be close to him. Years of poor behavior will do that.

The retreat that was suggested might help. That might not be enough though. You both (and maybe him more) need to learn better ways of communication. Yes, you need counseling together to learn how to treat each other.

The retreat might be a place to start. Or you may consider couples counseling first.

 

[Catholic2003]

olph:

1. Obedience. My husband feels that the instruction for wives to “obey your husbands” means that I must support his decisions on issues of child rearing and family finances even if I am not comfortable with his decisions. I feel that if he obeyed the instruction for husbands to love your wives, he would not put me in positions of obeying on topics we don’t agree on.

Is there any practical application for either of these instructions. Any limits?

From [Mulieris Dignitatem (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j...p-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html) (bold added):

The author of the Letter to the Ephesians sees no contradiction between an exhortation formulated in this way and the words: “Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife” (5:22-23). The author knows that this way of speaking, so profoundly rooted in the customs and religious tradition of the time, is to be understood and carried out in a new way: as a “mutual subjection out of reverence for Christ” (cf. Eph 5:21). This is especially true because the husband is called the “head” of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church; he is so in order to give “himself up for her” (Eph 5:25), and giving himself up for her means giving up even his own life. However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between husband and wife the “subjection” is not one-sided but mutual.

olph:

What are the limits of when a person can seek separation?

From a canon law commentary by Javier Escriva Ivars:

According to c. 1153 § 1, there is a legitimate cause for separation when a spouse makes common life too difficult. Making the common life unduly difficult is a generic expression that indicates a series of varied circumstances that can make conjugal cohabitation very difficult or impossible. With this expression, the legislator makes way for all those manifestations of cruelty-verbal or physical abuse, harshness, and lack of consideration towards another-that produce a common life that is practically impossible.

Physical cruelty includes violent conduct and physical aggression against one’s spouse or one’s material assets, cruel or merciless treatment through beating, etc. Moral cruelty involves offensive conduct, in word, act, or omission, against the dignity, honor, and feelings of the person, through slander, insults, disregard. For separation due to physical or moral cruelty to be lawful, the following conditions are necessary:

• it must be grave, such that it makes common life dangerous for the spouse or children;
• it must be repeated, because if it were merely occasional, it would not create the fear for future common life, which justifies the separation;
• and separation must constitute the only means of avoiding the danger involved in common life.

 

[Pug]

Olph,

That helps! I see much better now. I am so sorry for how things have gone for you. It is wonderful that you have homeschooled your children and lavished so much love upon them. It sounds like you have not been as supported in the endeavor as, well, as you should be. It sounds like you have heard many words and messages from your husband, ones that don’t make being intimate easy. You know, I feel some messages or words make intimacy actually inappropriate at that time. This could be happening to you.

You will have to discern the value of a retreat weekend or counseling at this time. I know from personal experience that a horrendous marriage can turn somewhat around. However, it is still easy to tell that a bulldozer drove through mine. For me, counseling was useless. The counselor could say, “do this”, and lo and behold, it was not done. Some level of cooperation must be present. It was better to stay away from it. It was only used as a weapon.

It sounds like the parish priest has listened to you with care, so that in itself may help you feel better. He could best advise you when a separation is in order.

However, everyone save one soul told me to leave. There is too much advice out there saying “leave”. I was right not to leave. However, I think the married path is so way harder than the religious life! Yikes! I guess I still don’t have much useful to say, so I hope it has helped to know that you have been listened to.

 

[olph]

Well, thanks again for all the encouragement.

In my husband’s defense, I have to say that he really did try to be supportive in the homeschooling effort. He would do math with them before going to work, and he worked like crazy for years so that he could work out of the home and thereby spend more time with the kids. I, in fact would probably have sent them to school, because I was to frazzled to ever really do much school with them.

Also, for clarity, though I still feel the desire for separation, it is not due to any current abuse. He has dropped his bad temper nearly 3 years ago now. He has lost his temper (yelled at) the kids 3 times in 3 years. Not good, but a huge improvement.

Nevertheless, I feel a need for space. ANd so do my teenaged girls who leave the room when he enters.

Here is a practical question. DH has voluntarily left the house last Christmas and this last Thanksgiving (against his better judgement he says) so that the girls and I can feel more comfortable with him gone. He has said he is willing to do it again this Christmas, but again, it is against his better judgement and fears it is actually harmful to the girls. I think they will see that as an act of love from him to recognize their feelings and sacrifice his Christmas for him. What do you think?

 

[SemperJase]

olph:

Nevertheless, I feel a need for space. ANd so do my teenaged girls who leave the room when he enters.

Again, let’s remember that while his behavior was unacceptable, you have recruited your daughters to take sides against him. It is no wonder they “feel the need for space”. You have been instrumental in creating that desire.

I think they will see that as an act of love from him to recognize their feelings and sacrifice his Christmas for him. What do you think?

Act of love? No, they see a man they don’t like whose wife chased him away for the weekend. You are teaching them they can’t enjoy family time with their father.

It may not be easy, he clearly has shortcomings but I see no good in making him leave for “family” time. I’m sorry, but that is only poisoning your daughters against their father and creating further division in your family.

I said you need couples counseling. I take it back, you need family counseling. Your husband needs help reconnecting with his children. He needs your support to do it.

It must be a dagger in his heart to be told he needs to leave so his family can enjoy themselves. Talk about torture. In spite of his shortcoming which don’t include abuse, he should be with his family for Christmas. You as his wife and mother to your children should be an example to bring him back into the family.

 

[Pug]

If he yelled often at the girls, I understand their behavior of leaving the room when he comes into it. However, I also understand the value of having a relationship with one’s father. I doubt it is on the surface of their minds at their age, but once they are older, they can feel the yearning for what could have been. So, if he is reasonable now, make the effort to heal those wounds, for their sakes. I can’t tell you how nice it was to have some healing with my father after, well, way too long. I think I have always felt, oh, less safe, for lack of a stable relationship with my father as a teen. So if it is possible, such a relationship would be good.

I really must again say, I can talk to my father after so many years!!! Thank the Lord!!! I badly needed a father back as a teen, and I despised him. Of course, it was not possible to talk to him back then, so I was out of luck. But maybe your girls aren’t. I may be the wrong person to answer your practical question, but maybe I am just the right person. I’d try to have your family together for Christmas, given what you have said.

 

[puzzleannie]

I hope this counselling includes family counselling, and individual sessions for your children, because it sounds they are being drawn against their will into disagreements and conflicts between the parents. it also sounds as if they have been allowed to shift the balance of power in the home in an unhealthy way. It also sounds like underlying issues of anger and violence still need to be addressed, and some healing needs to be done. We will pray for you.

 

[maryalene]

I have, fortunately, not experienced anything to the extent you have, but I did have many rough years with my husband where he was essentially an emotionally abusive person. When our marriage hit rock bottom, we went to counseling and DH made many positive changes. However, I was very focused on how I had been wronged in the past and DH rightly pointed out that I was completely missing the changes he had made and didn’t give him any credit. This is where Retrouvaille really helped me. For me, Retrovaille was a chance to “clear the air.” To get out everything that I had been thinking and feeling and hurting but never said. It also helped me really forgive my DH for the past. While I can’t forget what happened, it helped me realize that our marriage would never improve if I could not move on. I will add that our first night at Retrovaille was very rough. If you go, please don’t give up if the first night appears to go badly. It is so well worth it - please stay for the whole weekend if you go.

Finally, I strongly, strongly believe that children should not be used as a sounding board for marriage problems. It is just too heavy a burden for kids to bear. My kids are younger, but they often noticed when DH was angry or mean and would comment on it. As much as I wanted to say “yes, Daddy’s being a selfish jerk,” I always tried to remain positive for their sake and (after DH had left the room) would say something like “I think Daddy’s just having a bad day. We should say some extra prayers that he feels better.” And I never commented on my husband’s behavior in front of them. If he treated me badly or upset me, I bit my tongue until after the kids went outside to play or bedtime before bringing it up.

Hugs and prayers to you. I can’t imagine how bad you are hurting. I hope that things get better.

 

[sparkle]

Pug:

Olph,

However, everyone save one soul told me to leave. There is too much advice out there saying “leave”. I was right not to leave. However, I think the married path is so way harder than the religious life! Yikes! I guess I still don’t have much useful to say, so I hope it has helped to know that you have been listened to.

Same here. Only ONE person told me not to leave my husband, and that is because she left hers and has regretted it since, and had the courage to admit she made a mistake. Even Christians, even Priests can tell one “oh yes, this is abuse”…leave. Listen to God, not man. This is a major lesson, I am learning daily. We must not put our hope in people, our hope and strength comes from the Lord.
I hope you will find the ways and means to work it out and feel good about it friend. Medidate on Scripture. God Loves You and Your Family

 

[Tietjen]

I can appreciate your situation since I’m living it myself. The only difference is that I am the husband in my situation. Your situation sounds so much like my situation I can hardly believe it.

Like in your case, my wife and I had been going to counseling. Unlike your situation, we went to the same counselor. Like in your situation, there was never any threat of violence, drinking or drugs. Like in your situation, I (the husband) tried to get my wife to go with me to Retrouvaille and she refused. Like in your situation, my wife felt it necessary to talk to our 3 teenage boys about our situation. Like in your situation, our primary differences related to child rearing (I was always the “bad guy” and she has always been the nurturer) and financial situations. Like in your situation, I was the primary decision maker in the family. That’s not to say that I ruled over my family or that I held my wife back professionally or otherwise. Yet, she may say different. I see things as “black and white, right and wrong” my wife sees things in gray.

I haven’t read all the messages in this thread yet but I suspect (maybe wrong here) that your husband is probably the quiet “stay-at-home” type while you find yourself compelled to go out, party, etc. While neither personalities are wrong in themselves, I wish that in my case we could have found a comfortable compromise somewhere in between.

You may have noticed that I have been using the past tense throughout this post. That’s because about 2 months ago my wife and I did separate. This, despite our counselor advising that we stay together in order to work things out. My wife came to me and gave me the ultimatum that either I go or she would. To keep life for the children as calm as possible, I figured that it would be easier for me to get a nearby apartment rather than have them leave and have to give up their school, friends, etc.

Here’s where I am now… First, I love my wife and she professes to still feel some sort of love for me. I know that I will never pursue another romantic relationship with anyone else. I feel that despite whatever action she takes (divorce being a possibility) I will always consider myself married. What I can’t understand is why two Catholics find themselves in this situation to begin with. We both knew (once upon a time) that marriage was for life. Vows were taken which included “for better or worse” yet here we are. That’s not to say that if it’s “worse” the couple should simply accept it instead of working to improve the situation. In our case, my wife and I went to counseling for about 8 months. Despite my efforts, my wife simply couldn’t see any progress. I believe that in our case she was simply bored and had already made up her mind before we ever started counseling. Over the last couple of years, she began attending Mass less and less and now she doesn’t attend at all. She claims that she doesn’t know where she stands in her religious views. I believe that she has come to this conclusion in order to feel comfortable with her desire to separate from the marriage though I would never tell her that.

Speaking from a husband’s perspective who has/is going through this himself, don’t put your family through this. It sounds as though your husband loves you very much or he would not be trying to repair your relationship by going to counseling, suggesting Retrouvaille, etc. At one time, you took the same vows as I did and despite the rough times you’re now experiencing, you need to work things out. Separation is NOT the answer. It causes more problems. The one who is asked to leave will do so feeling devastated and hurt. Loneliness, anger, insecurity will enter the picture. These will be HUGE bricks in “the wall” that is between the two of you already and just more hurtles that will have to be overcome if you are to ever reconcile. Additionally, the loneliness that you BOTH will feel could lead to a seeking of another relationship outside the marriage which would mean even more HUGE bricks in that wall between the two of you. The bricks need to be torn away not increased if the marriage is to be repaired. I would encourage you to think back on the happy times in your marriage and concentrate on getting there again. To do otherwise will only lead to one of two ends. Either the two of you will continue as you are today or you’ll be doing additional damage to an already severely wounded marriage that could lead to a divorce. If a divorce occurs, where will that leave you in your relationship with God and His Church? If marriage is a mirror of what God’s relationship is with the Church aren’t you glad that God isn’t asking for a separation?

I wish you and your husband the best and I will pray for the two of you. I would ask that you do the same for my wife and me. We all really need the prayers at this moment in our lives.

 

[Cupofkindness]

Olph:

Although I am not exactly in your situation, I do have seven children that I homeschooled for ten or so years, and for about 14 years of my married life, the first fourteen years, I was always pregnant and/or nursing and every day I felt terribly inadequate because I couldn’t do it all. I couldn’t do a quarter of it! Not even a tenth. These were such hard years.

What I want to say is this: though I am not certain, I am fairly sure that you have survived the worst. Crazy hormones. An ocean of diapers. An endless list of chores. The most stressful, exhausting, demanding, financially draining years of your married life. And you had a family business to boot. Egads! Where does that put you on the 1 to 10 stress scale? At about 100! These hard years are really behind you. Now you can focus on yourself, and your marriage and husband.

Please go on that retreat and forgive your husband. Your anger sounds like the biggest obstacle at this point. Pray that God will impart some of His perfect love for your husband within you. Ask yourself how you would treat your husband if he were dying in the hospital. Would you hold grudges? Your marriage is dying… don’t kill it. Your precious children deserve married parents. And you and your husband deserve loving, respectful spouses. It sounds like you are at the point where you can make tha a reality.

You have been through so much, you have fought the good fight, many battles, as your family has grown over the years. Win the war, don’t surrender now.

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Hello olph,

Your marriage sounds a lot like what my parents went through. I was the teenage daughter who left the room whenever her father entered. My mom told us everything that he did, and I hated him for all of it. I hated him for the way he treated my mom and all of the emotional abuse he put her through.

These girls NEED a healthy relationship with their father. They need to be able to forgive him for things they should have never known about. They need to know that he cares and to know that he will always be there for them. He needs to be there for the holidays.

When I was a teenager, I didn’t think I needed any of those things, but the lack of it hurt me in so many different ways. My poor relationship with my father affected my self-confidence, self-worth, moral values and relationship with guys.

All of this is HUGE, and they need you to work 110% in giving them the opportunity to have a good realationship with their dad.
God bless.

 

[olph]

Hmm!

I don’t seem to be getting much support here! I don’t get it!!?!!
When my husband comes home from work, my oldest girls flee. They do not like him and will not stay in the same room as he is in.

Whatever the problem is, can’t they have some rest on Christmas? His being here, IMHO, will just make things worse. We will all have a lousy Christmas. THe stress will go up for everyone, the younger kids will see it. I can’t imagine that even he will have a good time.

I am missing something. Why in the world do you all seem to think he should be here?

 

[Katie1723]

olph:

Hmm!

I don’t seem to be getting much support here! I don’t get it!!?!!
When my husband comes home from work, my oldest girls flee. They do not like him and will not stay in the same room as he is in.

Whatever the problem is, can’t they have some rest on Christmas? His being here, IMHO, will just make things worse. We will all have a lousy Christmas. THe stress will go up for everyone, the younger kids will see it. I can’t imagine that even he will have a good time.

I am missing something. Why in the world do you all seem to think he should be here?

Well, I for one don’t think he should be there if YOU don’t want him there. What exactly do you want? If things are that uncomfortable, then explain it to him and ask him to leave. It isn’t easy, but you have a right to be happy/comfortable in your own home, as do your kids. The one thing I would caution you on, is to let your children have their own relationship with their father…not what you think it should be. When I was going through my divorce, I never badmouthed my husband to the kids. They were old enough to have their own opinions and their own relationship with their father. They knew more than I gave them credit for and over the years developed the relationship they wanted with their father. No help or hindrance from me.
So if you need to figure things out alone, so be it. Do it and DON’T feel guilty.
~ Kathy ~

 

[olph]

AH shucks, Kathy, Thanks for your support. But, no offense intended, I was kinda dissappointed when you mentioned your divorce, as my husband and I are both committed to the marriage working out. I guess I am looking for advice that has a record of success so to speak. What will help us heal? Facing our problems head on, or giving everybody space?

He feels that granting the “space” gives legitamacy to the kids ways of treating him. Like he would be saying, yeah, you are right, your anger is justified, I am the kind of person that should not be around."

Just today he was off of work and wanted to go to mass with the family. He asked if that would be O.K. I said “sure, if you sit on the other side of the church”. I could tell he was offended, and he ended up not going. He says that the message is all wrong, that it is not a message of “forgiveness and reconcilliation” that is being sent to the older kids, and that the younger kids are learning that that “dad” person is not to be trusted near them.

I thought that my daughters need to go to mass as often as possible to help us heal, and if he goes they wouldn’t, so he shouldn’t.

 

[puzzleannie]

olph:

Hmm!

I don’t seem to be getting much support here! I don’t get it!!?!!
When my husband comes home from work, my oldest girls flee. They do not like him and will not stay in the same room as he is in.

Whatever the problem is, .?

why do they react this way? there has to be a deeper problem either with his behavior, their reactions, or the way you mediate and choose betweent them. I doubt very much if this is an appropriate place to ask about or explore that deeper problem, but as I suggested before, family therapy and individual therapy for the girls is strongly indicated. This simply does not sound like a problem that can benefit from a discussion here.

if your were my daughter and knew only what you have revealed here I would be counselling a legal separation and consulting a lawyer, with continued family and individal therapy, because this sounds like a situation of long standing abusive behavior on the part of a man who will not change unless and until he desires to change. I would also strenously advise pastoral counselling and frequent recourse to the sacraments for you and your older daughters because it sounds like sacramental family healing is badly needed.

 

[vluvski]

You are the mother. As such, it is your duty to demand that your children respect your husband.

Respect does not mean they or you should take abuse, but you have indicated that his anger management has been under control for about three years.

According to your account, there has been a serious problem with intimacy between the two of you. I think both of you could use some lessons on being more sensitive to one another’s wants and needs. I highly, highly recommend any reading on Theology of the Body, especially Christopher West. He actually describes a situation very much like yours when he speaks on marriage and fruitfulness.

You claim you want this marriage to work, yet you’re telling your children you want to separate, asking your husband to be away from his wife and children, and sleeping on the couch. I believe that you are committed in your head to staying married but not in your heart, because those are hardly the actions of someone desiring reconciliation. Here’s a better idea: Put your money where your mouth is, and listen to LSK’s advice to try Retrovaille despite your reservations. Maybe someone there will offer just the straightforward advice you and your husband need to hear to finally begin to reconcile things.

 

[Tietjen]

olph:

Hmm!

I don’t seem to be getting much support here! I don’t get it!!?!!
When my husband comes home from work, my oldest girls flee. They do not like him and will not stay in the same room as he is in.

You said that his abusive behavior toward you has improved. Is this the case or not? If it is the case, you need to have a talk with your older children (not as their peer but as their mother) and explain to them that their father wants to be a part of their Christmas as well as their lives in a positive way. It sounds as though your husband is making every effort possible to prove to you and the children that he loves all of you and wants to heal the situation. Excluding him will only serve to aggravate the problem. Is it your older daughters that don’t want him there or you or both? What message are you sending him by excluding him from the celebration of Christmas with his family?

olph:

Whatever the problem is, can’t they have some rest on Christmas? His being here, IMHO, will just make things worse. We will all have a lousy Christmas. THe stress will go up for everyone, the younger kids will see it. I can’t imagine that even he will have a good time.

IMHO, you and your older children need to concentrate on what Christmas is really about and how it relates to families starting with the Holy Family.

olph:

I am missing something. Why in the world do you all seem to think he should be here?

I think you are. He should be there because he is your husband and your children’s father. He obviously loves all of you else he would not have been trying so hard to repair things. If you take even this away from him you’ll be sending a message to your daughters that they rule the home (since it appears that all of this is about what they want) and you’ll be sending a message to your husband that says no matter what you do or how hard you try to make things right, you have no chance of ever being a part of this family. That would be really sad, especially on Christmas.

Again, marriage is suppose to be a reflection of Christ’s relationship with His Church. Thank God He isn’t considering a separation.