Straight answers sought about marriage/separation

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olph:
Hmm!

I don’t seem to be getting much support here! I don’t get it!!?!!
When my husband comes home from work, my oldest girls flee. They do not like him and will not stay in the same room as he is in.

Whatever the problem is, can’t they have some rest on Christmas? His being here, IMHO, will just make things worse. We will all have a lousy Christmas. THe stress will go up for everyone, the younger kids will see it. I can’t imagine that even he will have a good time.

I am missing something. Why in the world do you all seem to think he should be here?
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Olph, your girls flee because you set the stage for that.
Your continued resistence here is feeding the problem instead of solving it.
You think the best solution is to remain married in name only and that just isn’t going to gain any support from any faithful Catholics on this board.
You don’t want to hear that. You’re putting out feelers looking for people to support your position…won’t happen here, sorry.

The peace you seek will be found only when you start facing your responsibilities in this marriage. You have to change a lot of things in order for peace to come back into your life, into your home. Your husband is trying and you are resisting. What’s worse is you are dragging your children into the problem by sharing your negative opinions about their father with them.

The stress at Christmas will only go up if you instigate it. Your husband really wants to be at home for the holidays, he will be on his best behavior. It is up to you to sit down with your kids and present their father in the best light for the holiday season to be shared with him. You are the adult so you have to take the lead.

Apologize to them for dumping your frustrations of their father onto them. Acknowledge to them that doing so put them in the position they are now where they want to hide whenever he’s around. Assure them they no longer have to feel that way toward him because of the therapy and his desire to do right by them this time around. Teach them about God’s call for us to forgive the trespasses of others (and right there invite you and the kids to hold hands while you lead them in a sincere prayer of the Our Father). Ask them to help you remain civil and charitable while their father is around because you know you’ll respond in a knee-jerk fashion but you don’t want to do that anymore because it’s bad for the kids, bad for you, and bad for him. Give them a code word they can use, like “peace” they can say when they notice tensions arising in the house…that will be your cue to stop whatever it is you’re doing, breath, say a quick prayer to Mary, and move forward.

You have to bite your tongue. You have to deny yourself any anger or resentment toward your husband for Christmas and set your mind on having a pleasant family holiday. It is your Christmas gift to your children and your husband to share the holiday with him in a civil, charitable manner.
 
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olph:
my husband and I are both committed to the marriage working out. I guess I am looking for advice that has a record of success so to speak. What will help us heal? Facing our problems head on, or giving everybody space?
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Then go to a Retrouvaille weekend and pray hard that you be able to let go of all these deep seeded negative feelings toward him. They are getting in your way of healing so ask the Lord to take them from you and open your heart to allow Him to do so. It’s so difficult to let go of the one thing we believe we have control over, but this one thing is destroying your family life and your happiness…it’s comfortable being in this state, letting it go will make you vulnerable and that’s frightening, but you know hanging on will not make your situation better - it hasn’t so far - so you have to trust in the Lord that another way, one you haven’t tried yet, may help.

I’m so sorry you are struggling so. I can sense the hurt and frustration in your posts, so I know what you’re feeling is so real. But clinging to those feelings is like continually picking away at a scab…the wound can’t heal that way.
 
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olph:
Just today he was off of work and wanted to go to mass with the family. He asked if that would be O.K. I said “sure, if you sit on the other side of the church”. I could tell he was offended, and he ended up not going. He says that the message is all wrong, that it is not a message of “forgiveness and reconcilliation” that is being sent to the older kids, and that the younger kids are learning that that “dad” person is not to be trusted near them.
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Your husband’s right.

The part of the mass where we offer peace to those beside us is there for a reason.

We are not worthy to receive Jesus through the Eucharist if we harbor animosity toward our neighbors. Our hearts, minds and souls have to be free from all negativity in order to be worthy of being filled with the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord. That’s why we pray the Our Father at that part as well - “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”…

To send the father of your children to the other side of the church is almost sacriligious, imo. What an insult before the Lord in His own house. Please, please, stop this.
 
I think the reason you are not getting much support is that we are sensing that you are the reason behind your children disrespecting your husband, and that you could change that if you made an effort in that direction. You are the mother. You are the heart of the home. If you decided that your daughters would not be allowed to behave in a disrespectful manner towards their father without some sort of repercussion from you then the chances are they might think twice about behaving in such a manner. If you sat those kids down and said, “Look. I have harmed you. How? I have communicated to you that disrespecting your father is somehow ok, and I was wrong. I’m sorry. I hope you can forgive me for that someday. From this moment on we are going to try and repair this family and put Christ at the center of it. You are going to do your part, and you are going to start by not running out of the room every time your father enters it. You are going to help me by praying with me every night. We are going to gather in the livingroom and say a Rosary together. It will be incredibly awkward at first. That’s ok. Unfamiliar things are awkward at first. But we are not going to let our FEELINGS dictate our ACTIONS anymore…we are going to put on our BIG GIRLS PANTS and we are going to start behaving like women of grace and dignity. And it is going to start TONIGHT…go get your Rosaries”.

It’s just a thought.
 
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puzzleannie:
family therapy and individual therapy for the girls is strongly indicated. This simply does not sound like a problem that can benefit from a discussion here.
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I second that. It will do wonders for your older daughters to face this issue now. Poor father-daughter relationships deeply affect how a woman views other men, trust them, rely on them…it will affect any relationship they enter into with men. You really don’t want to let them leave the house to live on their own with such a burden, do you?
 
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LSK:
I think the reason you are not getting much support is that we are sensing that you are the reason behind your children disrespecting your husband, and that you could change that if you made an effort in that direction. You are the mother. You are the heart of the home. If you decided that your daughters would not be allowed to behave in a disrespectful manner towards their father without some sort of repercussion from you then the chances are they might think twice about behaving in such a manner. If you sat those kids down and said, “Look. I have harmed you. How? I have communicated to you that disrespecting your father is somehow ok, and I was wrong. I’m sorry. I hope you can forgive me for that someday. From this moment on we are going to try and repair this family and put Christ at the center of it. You are going to do your part, and you are going to start by not running out of the room every time your father enters it. You are going to help me by praying with me every night. We are going to gather in the livingroom and say a Rosary together. It will be incredibly awkward at first. That’s ok. Unfamiliar things are awkward at first. But we are not going to let our FEELINGS dictate our ACTIONS anymore…we are going to put on our BIG GIRLS PANTS and we are going to start behaving like women of grace and dignity. And it is going to start TONIGHT…go get your Rosaries”.

It’s just a thought.
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👍 Very well said.

I was thinking about what to say. And I think the OP has to put in great effort to help not only her and DH but the kids as well.
You are lucky that your DH wants to go to Retrouvaille - GO - giv your marriage that chance. DH has improved and is making an effort. Also he wants to work this out and is putting U and the kids ahead of himself by leaving at the holidays - give him the chance and your family the chance. Start respecting your DH and set an example for the kids, in due time they will come around. Little, baby steps and all will fall in place
A Family that Prays together, Stays together.
God Bless You and the family and praying that you all have a Happy, Holy Christmas together (all 11 of you)
 
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LSK:
We are going to gather in the livingroom and say a Rosary together.
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If you do nothing else, please do this…starting tonight and do not let anything stop your family from doing this together **every **night from this one forward.

You will be amazed at how this simple, yet extremely-awkard-at-first act, will transform your family.
 
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olph:
When my husband comes home from work, my oldest girls flee. They do not like him and will not stay in the same room as he is in.
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Do you know why the flee, exactly? They could be afraid, and they are running to hide from the next harsh word or cold shoulder. Or, they could be doing it to show to him just how much they don’t like him, by denying him even simple human interaction. Perhaps they are leaving out of solidarity with you, and not any reason just their own. I can think of a variety of things it could be, each perhaps requires a different response from you.

If they stay in the room, how will he behave? I made some assumptions when I posted to you, one was that his yelling at them had stopped for about 3 years, but if it hasn’t…

Oh, do they truly leave instantly, or do they stay for 10 minutes and work their way out of there? Do they leave with a flourish? How does it go down?
 
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YinYangMom:
I second that. It will do wonders for your older daughters to face this issue now. Poor father-daughter relationships deeply affect how a woman views other men, trust them, rely on them…it will affect any relationship they enter into with men. You really don’t want to let them leave the house to live on their own with such a burden, do you?
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:clapping:

This was the most difficult thing I had to heal when I got sober - my relationship with my father. I am very, very grateful that despite the fact that my father did not deserve it my mother NEVER badmouthed him and she demanded that her children treat their father with respect. When it was time for me to make my amends to my father it was difficult but I did it. It took almost 8 years after those amends for me to finally get it into my head that he would NEVER EVER EVER be the father that I wanted, but he was the father that I was given. I could, therefore, be the daughter that he NEEDED, rather than the daughter HE WANTED (he would have really liked a drinking buddy.). The last four years of his life I was the only one of his three children he had a decent relationship with; I got to take care of him and it was me who found his body when he died. Because of our relationship he reconciled with the Church. I owe that to my 12 Step Group AND to a mother who, despite their divorce, NEVER allowed any of her children to treat their father with disrespect, had us pray for him EVERY NIGHT and reminded us that he was our father, no matter WHAT…my brother and sister could speak civilly to him, but because of my sobriety and my relationship with Jesus Christ I had a friendship with the ol’ coot…that’s what a REAL Catholic Mother can do.

My Mother is - as if you can’t tell - my hero.
 
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olph:
Hmm!

I don’t seem to be getting much support here! I don’t get it!!?!!
When my husband comes home from work, my oldest girls flee. They do not like him and will not stay in the same room as he is in.

Whatever the problem is, can’t they have some rest on Christmas? His being here, IMHO, will just make things worse. We will all have a lousy Christmas. THe stress will go up for everyone, the younger kids will see it. I can’t imagine that even he will have a good time.

I am missing something. Why in the world do you all seem to think he should be here?
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Because you made a committment before God to marry him. And you should honor that. That’s why. Is that not enough for you?
YOU be the one to instigate change. I know it’s hard to love the unlovable, but God expects us to do just this, especially when it’s our spouse.
God Bless~
 
Olph, I think you may not be getting the support you expected because it appears that your husband has extended the olive branch, and you are rejecting it. From your posts, it appears that you have rebuffed offers to go to joint counseling, attend Retrouvaille and refuse to sit as a family at Mass. You say that you are committed to making your marriage work, but your actions don’t seem to support that. I hope this doesn’t come across too harshly, and I think I understand where you are coming from. As I’ve worked to heal my marriage, I came to a point where my sadness about the marriage turned to anger. It suddenly became very clear to me how wrongly I had been treated, and in my mind, it was all my husband’s fault. This was followed by a period where I treated my husband very badly - I wanted nothing to do with him. I was so angry, and I think deep down, I felt that he treated me badly and now he deserved to be punished (by me not talking to him, respecting him, etc.) Of course, I don’t know you, and I may be completely off, but it sounds as though this might be what you are going through as well. My prayers are with you.
 
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olph:
I thought that my daughters need to go to mass as often as possible to help us heal, and if he goes they wouldn’t, so he shouldn’t.
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Here is another indicator that your children are ruling the home. If he goes to church, they wouldn’t? Why do they have the choice? They are not adults. You tell them, “We are going as a family” and everyone goes.

We do support you Olph. You are in a hard situation. As others said, you say you want to work on your marriage, but your actions are not consistent with that.
  1. You are refusing to go to the retreat that is known for helping people reconcile marriages.
  2. You have recruited your children against their father.
  3. You allow your children to set the rules of when their father can be with the family (not at holidays, not even at church).
Their father has been verbally abusive in the past. Surely he contributed; he is not blameless. Yet you acknowledge that his abuse has not been a problem for three years (yelling three times in three years is human - even if he was out of line in those instances, it shows a man that should be credited with showing a great change behavior).

At this point based on the information you have given, you are the only one that can make things better for your family. Your husband can’t change anymore - you have said he has changed his abusive behavior. That is the bad and good news.

It is bad in the way that it is now you who are seperating your family. The good news is you can change it. Stop rejecting your husband. Stop telling the children about your problems with him. Start telling them they do not have the power to send him away and that you all will spend time together. Tell him your expectations of how he needs to treat the family during that time. If he doesn’t meet those expectations, tell him privately and do not criticize him in front of the children. Start complimenting him in front of the children (I’d bet he responds to you more positively as well). Eat dinner together and make it mandatory for the family. Go to church together.
Finally (and most importantly) get counselling for the whole family. If you want your daughters to mature in a healthy way, they must reconcile with their faither. If not, they are much more at risk for drug use, teenage pregnancy or sexually transmitted disease and getting into their own abusive relationships.

We do support you because we know that you have the power to change it and you can do so relatively quickly. The beginning of the process will be uncomfortable. If you avoid that initial discomfort, your family will face years of pain.

Do you want a few weeks or months of discomfort?
Or would you rather have your family face a lifetime of pain and bitterness?

If you go with the first option, you’ll make the changes necessary. Its like setting a broken bone. Would you let your daughter not have her arm set if it was broken because she was afraid of the pain of doing it? Of course not because you know the life-long consquences of not doing it. It is the same here.
 
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sparkle:
Because you made a committment before God to marry him. And you should honor that. That’s why. Is that not enough for you?
YOU be the one to instigate change. I know it’s hard to love the unlovable, but God expects us to do just this, especially when it’s our spouse.
God Bless~
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And I conpletely agree with that statement!

Laura 😛
 
Have you ever read the book The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands?
 
olph said:
1) I have not been comfortable being in the same bed (or bedroom) with my husband for almost 2 years. He says he is O.K. with me refusing sex ( I think he really isn’t o.k. with it) but he says he is not O.K. in me demostrating to the children the depth of our problems by sleeping apart.
It is not okay for you to not want your dh or for your dh to be okay with you not wanting him. That’s a serious marital issue that should be addressed. It needs to be resolved. It is never appropriate to speak of such to your children about your dh. Same goes if he was to speak to them of you in such a manner.
  1. My husband feels that the instruction for wives to “obey your husbands” means that I must support his decisions on issues of child rearing and family finances even if I am not comfortable with his decisions. I feel that if he obeyed the instruction for husbands to love your wives, he would not put me in positions of obeying on topics we don’t agree on.
    Issues of child rearing and finance should be discussed in a non-combative manner jointly. It’s perfectly fine to let your dh have the lead, but it is also just as reasonable to expect a dh would be interested and concerned about his wife’s thoughts on these matters. There is no reason that the both of you should not be able to agree to some kind of compromise on those issues - AWAY from the children. It isn’t an issue of obeying - it’s an issue of doing what is best for the family as a whole and not nit-picking over everything.
  2. My spiritual advisor, has said that it would be o.k. for me to ask for a separation, as I need a break from his presence. Some of my older kids also want him to leave, and don’t even talk to him anymore. He says that my advisor is “whacked out” …
    I agree with your dh, although not being a wife beating jerk doesn’t mean he’s being a good husband either. Your children (and btw, why do you keep writing “my” instead of “our” in regards to the kids?) do not have a say in your marriage. If you are going to leave, then don’t blame it on the advisor or say it’s what the kids want, be honest with your dh and say it’s what YOU want.
What are the limits of when a person can seek separation?

I don’t see how a seperation would help. If you want a vacation from the stress, then just go on a retreat to think a bit for a weekend or a week. There are marriage retreats for couples in trouble to serve just this purpose of thought, sharing, and de-stressing in a neutral place away from distractions.

**But if you’re walking out the door and don’t know if you even want to return - then you might as well be prepared to discuss divorce now as then. **
  1. I have talked openly with my kids about my desire to separate from my husband. He is not happy about this, says that it is just making them more distant from him. Since they won’t talk to him, he cannot even “defend” himself. He feels he is being treated unfairly by my not being willing to present the children with his view of our situation. He says they would be better off without hearing any of this, even if they can see for themselves tha we have problems.
Your dh is correct. It is one thing for kids to know things are “off” or to even be told, by both of you together, that you are having problems you are trying to work out. It is a completely other thing to confide in them or discuss the privacy of your marriage with them. It is a burden to them and an additional hardship for your marriage that could be avoided. Worse, your dc are entitiled to the chance at a close relationship to their father and it is wrong to harm that relationship.
  1. He once emailed a long note and several shorter ones to a lawyer who runs a marriage counselling service that I was interested in. He asked in each that his notes be kept confidential. She shared them with a business associate and he emailed them all to me. She says it was o.k. as email is not confidential and she had not agreed to keep them confidential. He was really upset and thinks she was totally out of line.
    I think everyone was out of line. First, he should be honest with you if he is looking into his legal options. Second, although the lawyer wasn’t under confidential laws - that doesn’t mean she should have passed them on either. Third, you say “once” which gives the impression of a it having been a good deal in the past. If so, let it go.
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olph:
It is hard to put into words why I do not like to be close to my husband anymore. There has been no affair or physical abuse, but for years he ran roughshod over me.

ahhh… I see much beter now. So, he’s changed a good deal and you may be more than a little bit scared of giving him any kind of power over you again… physical/sexual distance is a good way to make sure that doesn’t happen. Unfortunately, it’s also a good way to harbor a hardened heart that might otherwise soften towards him. I’m not saying you have to go have sex with him. I am saying that it’s high time for some physical forgiveness for yourself and him. Start with holding his hand at the movies maybe? I agree with the other posters who recommend a joint marriage counselor. You can see the counselor seperately, but it’s important to come together with the counselor too.

In my husband’s defense, I have to say that he really did try to be supportive in the homeschooling effort. He would do math with them before going to work, and he worked like crazy for years so that he could work out of the home and thereby spend more time with the kids. I, in fact would probably have sent them to school, because I was to frazzled to ever really do much school with them.

Also, for clarity, though I still feel the desire for separation, it is not due to any current abuse. He has dropped his bad temper nearly 3 years ago now. He has lost his temper (yelled at) the kids 3 times in 3 years. Not good, but a huge improvement.

He’s only yelled at the kids 3 times in 3 years?! Goodness that’s not improvement - that’s darn near a miracle for anyone!

Nevertheless, I feel a need for space. ANd so do my teenaged girls who leave the room when he enters.

Here is a practical question. DH has voluntarily left the house last Christmas and this last Thanksgiving (against his better judgement he says) so that the girls and I can feel more comfortable with him gone. He has said he is willing to do it again this Christmas, but again, it is against his better judgement and fears it is actually harmful to the girls. I think they will see that as an act of love from him to recognize their feelings and sacrifice his Christmas for him. What do you think?

Your dh’s judgement is spot on. That’s the saddest thing I’ve read so far. :crying: Your dds need a vacation with dad away from mom. By your own words, he has done nothing to deserve such a painfull thing from his daughters and it’s a tragedy. At the very least, it’s disrespectfull for them to treat him that way and you should not allow it to continue.

Your dh seems to have done so much to earn your love and forgiveness for many years now. It’s time to give it to him. You may not love him anymore, I suppose. But he is your dh and it would appear a good man. Do you show him any affection? Does he know it?

**I’m with LSK on this. Go to Retrou. **
**ETA: **
I also think you ARE getting much support here for your marriage, that doesn’t mean you are going to like it or agree with it. You asked in the beginning for straight answers and you are certainly getting that, although they may not be agreement with you. No one here thinks you are a bad person, but many do see some glaring mistakes that can be fixed by you with some desire to do so.
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olph:
AH shucks, Kathy, Thanks for your support. But, no offense intended, I was kinda dissappointed when you mentioned your divorce, as my husband and I are both committed to the marriage working out.
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I was committed to my marriage until he abused both our son and me. Sorry, but physical abuse doesn’t get a second chance in my book, not with me and especially not with my kids.

~ Kathy ~
 
Olph,

Nobody can make this decision for you. It is between you and God. Yes, seek the counsel of good priests and pray and pray.

After 21 years of marriage, I recently separated from my husband. Everyone gave me advice, but nobody really listened–except the priests. I wouldn’t be here today without their support. They really listened and they really heard what I said.

My marriage was making me emotionally ill. I tried and tried to do the right things, but nothing ever got better. Finally, I got so depressed that I stopped functioning. I lost 20 pounds in 20 days, 50 pounds in 4 months. I didn’t eat, I didn’t sleep, I cried all the time, I stopped living. I had to make a choice- my emotional health, or my marriage. I chose my emotional health.

Olph, you have to make this choice. You have to look deep down into your heart and you have to be honest with both God and yourself. You’ll be the one answering to God someday, and only He and you will know the truth. This is a time to grow very close to God, for Him to become your best friend. He is there for you. He sees your tears, and hears your pleas. He understands your heart. Ask Him to heal it, but let Him do it in His way.

God Bless You!!
 
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Hopeful:
Olph,

Nobody can make this decision for you. It is between you and God. Yes, seek the counsel of good priests and pray and pray.

After 21 years of marriage, I recently separated from my husband. Everyone gave me advice, but nobody really listened–except the priests. I wouldn’t be here today without their support. They really listened and they really heard what I said.

My marriage was making me emotionally ill. I tried and tried to do the right things, but nothing ever got better. Finally, I got so depressed that I stopped functioning. I lost 20 pounds in 20 days, 50 pounds in 4 months. I didn’t eat, I didn’t sleep, I cried all the time, I stopped living. I had to make a choice- my emotional health, or my marriage. I chose my emotional health.

Olph, you have to make this choice. You have to look deep down into your heart and you have to be honest with both God and yourself. You’ll be the one answering to God someday, and only He and you will know the truth. This is a time to grow very close to God, for Him to become your best friend. He is there for you. He sees your tears, and hears your pleas. He understands your heart. Ask Him to heal it, but let Him do it in His way.

God Bless You!!
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thank God you got out…you were killing yourself! And now, I am guessing, you are on your way back to health?
 
I was committed to my marriage until he abused both our son and me. Sorry, but physical abuse doesn’t get a second chance in my book, not with me and especially not with my kids.

~ Kathy ~
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:clapping:

You are in my prayers - thank you for protecting your children.
 
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