Straight answers sought about marriage/separation

  • Thread starter Thread starter olph
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
olph:
Just today he was off of work and wanted to go to mass with the family. He asked if that would be O.K. I said “sure, if you sit on the other side of the church”. I could tell he was offended, and he ended up not going. He says that the message is all wrong, that it is not a message of “forgiveness and reconcilliation” that is being sent to the older kids, and that the younger kids are learning that that “dad” person is not to be trusted near them.

I thought that my daughters need to go to mass as often as possible to help us heal, and if he goes they wouldn’t, so he shouldn’t.
Yes, Mass is healing. You’ve got that right. 👍 ALL families need the sacraments.

Your husband is also right that refusing to sit with him at Mass (of all places!) sends the WRONG MESSAGE.

As their mother, you can and most certainly SHOULD take your children to Mass, telling them quietly and firmly that they WILL sit together with you and their father. Such a request is not asking too much, and is barely asking the minimum of them. Despite their initial pouting and complaining, in the long run (and usually not so very long 🙂 ), such loving firmess will make them happier, I promise! If he really is committed to being a good father (and it sounds like he is), they really can learn to feel at peace in his presence, and they will look to you as their example in this. It’s amazing how naturally children take their emotional ques from their mothers! “If momma ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.” 😛

Thought this is off the point of your original post, I think you have mentioned that a point of contention between you and your spouse is the disciplining of the children. Although it is MOST important that you address such issues in the proper family counseling setting, hopefully with good Catholic counselors, may I recommend a resource that has really helped my husband and I be on the same page with disciplining our children? I tend to be lax, and he very firm (although never abusive), so it is hard to be in agreement on many things! 🙂 BUT we found Dr. Ray Guarendi: www.drray.com. FABULOUS, easy, and simple (really!) ideas for how to raise children that will help you feel more confident around your children and possibly even around your husband.
 
Hope what many readers have picked up on - about the children being used as the wedge by the enemy ( who is laughng his head off ) can be a major issue - they are taught how to break the 4th commandment and in many families this pattern has become so entrenched that it becomes a cruel game , of one bad parent against the good parent and the children !

Reading the scriptures together as a family , esp. the dad taking the initiative , being the priest in the family , having the daily family rosary ( and telling The Lady - with this rosary, I bind my children and us to your Immaculate Heart )are all weapons !
All the events of The Old Testament,and The New where Our Father has removed those scary judgements from us ,having taken them upon Himself , can speak and heal hearts much better than our human wisdom and bring a God inspired unity to hearts that can be so precious !

May be both of you can enroll in a bible study together and get the children involved as well - our focus on The Father,can always help !
Going for Eucharistic adoration all together as a family - another wonderful experience !
There might be deep seated unforgiveness issues , such as from an abortion if any - many say such couples can have real problems even years later …turn to The Divine mercy ( www.thedivinemercy.org) and at websites that deal with this , that your husband would also have understanding and compassion !

Trusting how The Lord can change hearts -esp. through the incidents in The Sciptures , The Tree of life which is sadly neglected by us, just like our Grandparents , can bring that peace into all your lives - esp. the children whom you care about !

Hope you would make a real effort to get the children to show dad gratitude and respect , for their own sake to begin with and it would be respect to The Father who is not shown any affection or thought by many of His !
 
Olph:

It seems to me that your are being rather vindictive and hard hearted. You own 50% of your marital problems. You need to give 100% to the solution. You seem to be evading any responsibility to the healing of your marriage, just like you seemed to evade responsibility for how your husband treated you for many years during your marriage. You let him ride roughshod over you.

Your husband sounds like he’s making significant changes, but you are stalled in the water. Like the wife of an alcoholic who’s recovering. The wife has so much anger and resentment built up that she can’t function when her spouse begins to normalize after years of abuse. She can’t let go of the ways that she developed to cope with the alcoholic. You really need help. These are very difficult habits to change, that is, letting go of fear and establishing trust in the relationship. You can’t even see if your husband’s changes are real and lasting because you won’t allow yourself to get close enough to discern what is going on in his mind and heart. How is your relationship with your father? Is it like the one that you had with your husband? Do you have past issues that are interfering with this process? Get to the bottom of this so you can move forward knowing that you did your best regardless of what option you ultimately choose.
 
I am a divorced father of 2 (9-year old girl and 7-year old boy).

To keep it short - X told me she wanted a divorce and that was it. I offered counseling or living apart for a bit or anything else. She refused.

Our problems were long-standing and there was quite a bit of denial on my part.

To answer your issues from that perspective:

Two years into counseling and you are at great discomfort sleeping in the same bed with him. Time to you know or what or get off the pot… I am not blaming you or him, but after two years in counseling there should be SOME progress. It does not appear that you have made any.

Living apart is NOT the answer (in retrospect I was wrong for even offering it but sometimes emotions get the better of one…).

You do not state the ages of your children, but it seems that they are old enough to have strong opinions. The younger the children the more damage divorce does to them.

You do not state the reason for their feelings towards their father, but it does indeed seem to be bad.

You need to sit down alone and figure out what you want.

If you want to remain married then you must commit yourself repairing the damage. Regardless of what your spouse says or does, you must remain committed. If you do not your marriage cannot survive.

Keep in mind that even if you do so your marriage may not survive. It does indeed take two to tango and he has to also. If he sees your commitmant, it may influence his… or it may not…

Should you decide not to continue your marriage then you should sit down with your spouse and discuss a break-up. The more amicable you can seperate, the easier it is on the children.

I would like to wish you good luck, but luck is not what you need. Instead I offer my hopes that you can quickly decide and commit yourself to a path.

Ronin
 
Thanks all. I have a lot to digest. It is all very confusing to me. I know my husband has made significant changes, but I know him, and know that he is impatient with me. He doesn’t say anything, or at least hasn’t in some time. But just the fact that he is internally impatient with me tells me that he does not know how to love. If he did he would understand my fear and reluctance to trust him and give me all the time and space I need.

I have come to understand that situations like ours are the result of the failure of the man, as he is the one who must give himself completely to the protection of the wife and children. Garry Smalley put it plainly in his book. He said something to the effect of “if after 5 years of marriage there are problems in the relationship, it is the man’s fault”. My husband just does not have the humility to accept that , nor does he seem to want to be held accountable for the failure of our marriage.

I don’t trust his changes.

How does one come to trust changes and begin trusting again?
 
The first thing you need to do is lose [edit] ideas like this one:

“I have come to understand that situations like ours are the result of the failure of the man, as he is the one who must give himself completely to the protection of the wife and children.”

If you cannot then you are just wasting your time, wasting his time and hurting your children more.
 
40.png
olph:
I have come to understand that situations like ours are the result of the failure of the man, as he is the one who must give himself completely to the protection of the wife and children.
Through this thread, you have admitted some of the problems caused by you.

Your husband did cause problems in his verbally abusive behavior.

Yet he did not force you to recruit your children against him. He did not make you refuse to go to the retreat. He is not the one preventing him attending church with his family.

You have received some bad advice from Smalley. He is not entirely responsible for all the problems in his marriage. You have also contributed. It would not be humility for him to accept all the responsibility, it would be a lie. Him lying about it would not gain your trust. How could a lie do that?
How does one come to trust changes and begin trusting again?
By looking at what he has done to change. Three years and only yelling three times? That is a huge improvement.

Its been said before. He has made changes that you acknowledge. To this point, you have refused to make your own changes. Its your turn.

Can you start by committing to stop talking to your kids about their father’s problems?
 
Well, here is a current example of just why I do not think he has really changed. At the heart of our trouble is that I have felt that he insists on controling others.

The older girls in the family who are so angry with him have taken to calling him by the name of “snothead” (they don’t say that around him, they leave!). They have called him much worse, but that seems to be what they have settled on.

When he heard of this, of course he was not happy, and felt that I should forbid them from calling him that. PERIOD!

Of course, I feel sorry for my husband that they would do this, but he is the adult and his feelings should come second. I think the children have to come first. I want them to be free to express their feelings. If I insist that they call him something more respectful, it won’t change how they feel (at best) and at worst, they might stop sharing their feelings around me.
 
Sounds like you and the children are helping DH to become a saint such as in 'love those who hate you ’ etc: - hope he is offering it up in union with The Lord , for the whole Church, for conversion of selfish men who walk out , for priests who need to become real fathers, in the steps of The Lord …

What you are staeling from yourself and the children is the joy of living upto what you are - children of God , who know how to will to be forgiving, respectful …

If the approval of children even at the detriment of their eternal life , joy and peace even here and now has become the goal, the idol of your life , it can come tumbling down ,you might have already taught them how to turn against you, when you try to bring them back !
Would need the Father power through the father …
God Bless!
 
This is really sad that you would enable your children to call their FATHER a name just because you don’t want them feel they can’t express themselves to you anymore. This definitely must be one of the major problems here. Part of being a parent is not just to let your children know they can come to you with how they are feeling, but also to let them know when they are wrong!!! You are not doing your part as a parent if you think that the lesser evil in all this is to allow your chidren to DISRESPECT their FATHER. You are essentially teaching them to break one of the 10 commandments and therefore setting them up on the wrong path in life. It is your job to do the best you can to teach them right from wrong so that they can get to heaven some day.
 
40.png
olph:
When he heard of this, of course he was not happy, and felt that I should forbid them from calling him that. PERIOD!

Of course, I feel sorry for my husband that they would do this, but he is the adult and his feelings should come second.
That idea just isn’t biblical. Children are to honor their parents no matter what they are feeling. Wanting the respect he is due as their father is not controlling. And what reason do they have to feel this way? You say he has changed in the last three years. There seems to be no forgiveness in your family.

You are allowing your daughters to call him Snothead? While your husband isn’t perfect, who is? Look at what he does do. Your daughters have a home and clothes on their back because of him. Frankly they are being brats. And you are pandering to it.

When you start setting the example and demand they respect their father for what he does do, their feelings will change. As long as you encourage their disrespectful and bratty behavior, they will continue to hate their father. It will then spread to the younger children.

Do you allow your children to call each other names? If so, you shouldn’t. If not, why do you make them respect each other but not their father? Sorry, he is right on this one. You should stop your daughters from calling him names. You are the one who needs to teach them to respect people. They won’t learn it on their own.

As long as you encourage that behavior, you will have no peace in your home.
 
40.png
olph:
The older girls in the family who are so angry with him have taken to calling him by the name of “snothead” (they don’t say that around him, they leave!). They have called him much worse, but that seems to be what they have settled on.

When he heard of this, of course he was not happy, and felt that I should forbid them from calling him that. PERIOD!

Of course, I feel sorry for my husband that they would do this, but he is the adult and his feelings should come second. I think the children have to come first. I want them to be free to express their feelings. If I insist that they call him something more respectful, it won’t change how they feel (at best) and at worst, they might stop sharing their feelings around me.
Olph, you seem to have totally lost your perspective in this situation.

You should have come down hard and heavy on your daughters for daring to refer to their father in such a disrespectful fashion. However, you are the one who has caused that - by unloading your problems on them.

You really must insist that they not use any disrespectful words to describe or refer to their father. It does not matter what their feelings are, in this matter - that is no excuse.

You are, unfortunately, preparing your daughters to be unable to have a proper male/female relationship. I fear for their future marriages.

If you truly want to save your marriage, you must be prepared to whatever it takes. That means, trying to reverse the destruction of the relationship between your husband and you, and the destruction of the relationship between your husband and his daughters.

Continuing in the way you have been will only lead to regrets.

From what you tell us, your husband is making efforts to meet you half way, but you are refusing to accept anything from him. How can you build your marriage when you slap away every olive branch he reaches out to you? Unless I am missing something crucial, this is what you are doing.
 
Oh my goodness, olph. The contradiction between your statement that you want to save your marriage and your behavior toward your husband are incredible. I agree with everyone who says that you cannot allow your daughters to speak so terribly disrespectfully about their father. They should not be allowed to walk out of the room on him, either.

I am not a big fan of counseling. I think you need to soften your heart toward him, which you may be afraid of doing both because of his earlier behavior and because of the alcoholism in your background. You recognize that the alcoholism in your family did a number on your self-esteem. It could very well be that the experiences you had growing up have caused you to fear an attempt at a good marriage - better to lose something that was never good than to try to attempt to make something beautiful and then lose it. You may unconsciously be making it impossible to have a good marriage because you feel undeserving of it (you’re not! You’re a child of a King Who loves you and wants you to be happy!) and because it would be easy to lose a bad marriage but devastating to lose a good one. Considering the alcoholism in your background, have you ever tried going to Al Anon meetings?

I hope you will give your husband a chance. I think he is trying. I also hope you will consider dropping the counselors. Al Anon may do you much, much more good, and it’s a lot cheaper!

Best wishes.
 
Olph,

I did have one more thought. Could you sit down today and write a list of 10 things that are good about your spouse? You may feel your heart warming even a little bit toward him.

I did say a prayer for you at adoration today. I have been through a divorce myself, from a man who was both abusive and unfaithful, and even under those circumstances, divorce really is a situation that replaces one set of serious problems for another. I am dealing now w/ a stepmother for my kids, facing working to provide the bulk of support for the kids in the future, dealing with children who have had to live through the death of their family… this was not my option, my husband was determined to go his own way, but in your case, your husband is committed to you. Which could be good quality number one on your list.

I don’t mean to reply as though I know better for your situation than you do, so please take what you wish from my words and discard the rest.

God bless.
 
40.png
olph:
Thanks all. I have a lot to digest. It is all very confusing to me. I know my husband has made significant changes, but I know him, and know that he is impatient with me. He doesn’t say anything, or at least hasn’t in some time. But just the fact that he is internally impatient with me tells me that he does not know how to love. If he did he would understand my fear and reluctance to trust him and give me all the time and space I need.

Not true. Frankly, I think a saint would be impatient with you at this point. Being impatient does not mean he doesn’t know how to love, but I don’t see him as the impatient spouse in your relationship. You seem to have no patience or care for him at this point. All you seem to really care about is getting your “space”, even if it destroys what family/marriage you have left.

I have come to understand that situations like ours are the result of the failure of the man, as he is the one who must give himself completely to the protection of the wife and children. Garry Smalley put it plainly in his book. He said something to the effect of “if after 5 years of marriage there are problems in the relationship, it is the man’s fault”. My husband just does not have the humility to accept that , nor does he seem to want to be held accountable for the failure of our marriage.

Smalley is a quack then. That kind of mentality is just plain rubbish. Given your own words, your dh has an amazing capacity for humility given that you have humiliated him and taught the children of this marriage to do the same for years. There are 2 people in your marriage. He has made great strides in his efforts to make you happy. But YOU are not doing anything for anyone at this point. You are the one who has become over-bearing, verbally abusive, and controling and are impossible to make happy.

The older girls in the family who are so angry with him have taken to calling him by the name of “snothead” (they don’t say that around him, they leave!). They have called him much worse, but that seems to be what they have settled on.

When he heard of this, of course he was not happy, and felt that I should forbid them from calling him that. PERIOD!

Of course, I feel sorry for my husband that they would do this, but he is the adult and his feelings should come second. I think the children have to come first. I want them to be free to express their feelings. If I insist that they call him something more respectful, it won’t change how they feel (at best) and at worst, they might stop sharing their feelings around me.

That is not controling them at all! And it makes me question just how over-bearing he really ever was if you think that is a control issue. That was rightly expecting to get respect from the children of the house and expecting a decent wife would back him up on not allowing children of any age to speak in such a manner.

My children are perfectly capable of saying, " I don’t like this or that because…" without name calling or rudeness and they are all under 11 years old! Speech like that gets a mouth washed out with soap in this house.

Children do not come first in a marriage. The marriage comes first always. To do otherwise is actually a harm to those children and the marriage. Even if I was divorced I wouldn’t tolorate my children speaking that way about anyone and certainly not their father.

You say your dh was verbally abusive, yet you tolorate such verbal hatefullness in your children - endorse it even?!

I have a feeling if he allowed them to speak to you this way, you’d have a different attitude.
 
To defend Smalley, I’ve seen him say that to point out the level of responisbility the husband/father has as head of the household, but in context it has allowances for cases like this where the wife is actively undermining her husband’s authority to lead the family. He wouldn’t hold a husband responsible in a situation where the wife pointedly refused to allow the husband the authority to lead her (or their kids). Smalley would totally disagree with how the OP has been handling this situation, especially the emotional abuse the OP has inflicted on her kids by using them as weapons in her grudge against their father.
 
40.png
olph:
Well, here is a current example of just why I do not think he has really changed. At the heart of our trouble is that I have felt that he insists on controling others.

The older girls in the family who are so angry with him have taken to calling him by the name of “snothead” (they don’t say that around him, they leave!). They have called him much worse, but that seems to be what they have settled on.

When he heard of this, of course he was not happy, and felt that I should forbid them from calling him that. PERIOD!

Of course, I feel sorry for my husband that they would do this, but he is the adult and his feelings should come second. I think the children have to come first. I want them to be free to express their feelings. If I insist that they call him something more respectful, it won’t change how they feel (at best) and at worst, they might stop sharing their feelings around me.
How could you even allow this? Do you not understand how you are dishonoring him and your children as well? Your children don’t have the right to call any adult names especially their father and you are allowing your daughters to sin by not honoring their father. The crapola about them being free to express themselves is just that … crapola! You are their parent and should be setting guidelines for how to live a Godly life. You chose your husband, you promised to honor him…start honoring him, don’t let your children call him names! Heck, I was divorced and my kids were calling their dad names and I punished them for not honoring their father, and trust me there were many good reasons to divorce this man! It wasn’t even that I disagreed with the names my kids came up with, but it was just wrong to allow them to dishonor anyone especially their father. I have read all the posts and it seems to me that you are the one that isn’t being true to your marriage vows. You claim you want it to work out, but you belittle the man and demean him. You really need to think about what you are doing to him. First, you are sleeping on the couch in the living room…this shows the girls that you don’t care enough for your husband to even sleep in the same room, then you let let them call him names…On top of that, you whine about wanting time away from him, try being a wife to him in all ways…show him the respect he deserves as your husband.
 
The fact that Olph is getting a lot of well meant correction here and has been open , truthful and persistent about the situation seem to speak of her desire to hold the marriage together !

Might even be the power of prayers !

There might be communication at other levels such as bodylanguage , tone of voice etc:that might be still giving off the wrong signals from dh that you find troubling and same for the girls - after years of starvation for affection and affirmation, you all might be expecting a real feast, 'right now ’ !

Yet the first word in defining love is - patience and that possibly can only come , when we know the marriage oath is sworn , inThe Lord ; as many here have pointed out , all this could turn out to be a wonderful chance for the whole family, esp. the girls to truly find The Lord, The Power of His ways when we turn and surrender ; scriptures would be critical here - like the River Jordan where Naman bathed to wash away his leprosy, somehow those events and words can give a diffrent perspective , esp. how God can change hearts !
Asking dad to read the scriptures to the family ( following the daily mass readings might be a good plan ) as well as the family rosary daily would bring you all together for a very precious few min; a good start - hope the girls would be allowed no excuses to be absent - the enemy would try !
A morning rosary with you and your husband or the Chaplet of mercy also can unleash the healing waters of God’Love
into the hearts that you wouldn’t mind the sacrifices/‘giving in’ for love of the Father !
 
Practical advice:

There was a time when my mother was known in our family for being indisputably unreasonable. Naturally, us kids wanted to vent and gripe to eachother and Dad about her shortcomings.

Even though we had legitimate reason to be upset, we were never allowed to speak poorly of Mom. Instead, Dad sat us down and had a talk with us. “We all know your mother is going through a tough time right now, but she’s your mother, and under no circumstances may you talk about her like that. That’s just part of who she is right now. If you find yourself getting frustrated, say ‘Mom is Mom.’ That way, you’ve acknowledged that while she isn’t perfect, she’s still your mother and that position demands respect in spite of any shortcomings.”

Olph, you seem to be attracted to something akin to permissive parenting which has been shown time and time again to be ineffective. I suspect that DH’s former temper problem contributed a great deal to the formation of this attitude. While his discipline preferences may be stricter than you prefer, they sound much more effective than trading your position of authority for one of friendship with your children.
 
I appreciate the comments, but I am not at all sure I agree with some of the advice.

It seems to me that because my husband went so long with not really caring about my thoughts and feelings on things, that now that my trust in him is broken, that it is HIS responsibility to earn it back. The male is the initiator, the female the responder. IF he really loves me then he will do whatever it takes to do that and truly be patient in the mean time.

Same goes for the children. I do not think he did anything horrendous with them, but clearly, he has lost their trust and admiration as well. Their contempt for him is not at all in the normal range. I am sorry, but I don’t see how my sleeping in the living room could possibly bring about such a strong reaction in them. I feel that he had to have made them feel very violated in some way for them to react so strongly against him. And so, it is incumbent upon him to show his love by putting them first. By showing that he is willing to do whatever it takes to win then back.

For him to impose himself on them by expecting to go places with them, share meals with them etc. when they clearly do not want to be around him, to me, is sending them the message that he does not care how they feel - and that is just what got him into this mess in the first place.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top