Straight answers sought about marriage/separation

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O.K., you have all really gone out of your way to help me out. The advice seems to be really not lining up with my feelings. There is more info on our mess that may change some of your responses. I was reluctant to mention it earlier, because my gut feeling is that it is not true.

Our marriage problems came to a head nearly 3 years ago. That is when I finally got some good counsel from a solid priest and realized that it was not me to blame for our marriage problems, it was my husband and his temper and his ruthless control of the family. He is the one that gave me the Gary Smalley book.

My husband had a pretty good relationship with all the kids save the oldest boy who had really felt boxed in by his controlling nature and had already made himself pretty distant from his father.

About 6 months after that epiphany for me, the oldest girls started showing that they did not like him. They complained that he ate too much, that he smelled bad, that he didn’t mow the lawn as often as other dads - weird minor stuff, (some of which was true!)

Then, one of the girls (12 at the time) said she did not like the way he used to cuddle with her a year and more before. He would put his hand under her shirt when he gave her back rubs after mass on Sundays on the family room couch.
A younger one said that she felt the same. That he once put his hand on her stomach and she did not like it.

I mentioned it to our marriage counselor, and he did not see anything in it worth pursuing.

About six months later, the lawyer (that runs a marriage counseling business) thought I should take them to someone else for a second opinion.

When I did, the nurse that saw them siad she needed to report it to social services. Turns out their story changed and now were saying that he (for the 12 year old) touched her breasts once a week for 2 years, and (for the 11 year old) that he touched her breasts a few times.

The Social services investigated, the Sheriff investigated and both immediately concluded that the charges were unfounded.

Husband, of course denied all but innocent cuddling. He said “heck, they didn’t even have breasts to fondle at the time, and if he were so inclined would not have done so in the family room after mass in the busiest room in the house.”

As I said, my gut feeling is that he is telling the truth, and that the girls are just unable to express some very serious negative feelings that they have towards him. Only God, the kids and my husband will ever know. My husband has been tested by numerous shrinks and all come up with him not being inclined to pedophilia or sex/porn addiction.

Anyway, here we are. THe girls have never changed their story since, nor has my husband. I guess the seriousness of their feelings make me perhaps overprotective of them. I certainly don’t want them to think that I think they are lying.

Does that change anything of how you guys think I should handle things?
 
Yes, it does make a difference. To tell you the truth, my gut instinct in the beginning of this thread was that might be what was behind your daughter’s attitudes. I held back on commenting to see if you would reveal this, because otherwise, I just couldn’t understand what was going on. This does make more sense now. I have a feeling that Puzzleannie picked up on this too. Are your girls in counseling? Even unproven (and this might not be possible to prove), I think this is cause to consider separation. I think the urge toward pedophilia is based partly on control and you already know that is present in your husband.
 
That does change things somewhat. The kids definitely all need to be in counseling for their alleged encounters, regardless of whether any of it is true. I assume this is why you refuse to share a bed with him? If you truly believe him, why give credence to the children’s lies?

It is a statistical fact that very few cases of sexual assault are made up by children. I’d almost be inclined to pursue the issue until the stories match, but then again I have no experience dealing with such problems. I certainly hope and pray your husband is telling the truth!

The fact remains that your daughters’ behavior is ruling the household and they are out of line. It is possible that permissive parenting the lacked real displine (replaced by your husbands temper) enticed them to create stories. Even more so because of the accusations, YOU need to be the one to enforce this. Emphasize that you will not allow them to be alone with their father.

You mention that your daughters began distancing themselves from him AFTER you realized he was the current source of the problem. Could they have sensed, or did you share with them, these thoughts?

I advise you to decide once and for all whose story you believe, and get professional help doing so. You will never, ever be able to move forward. You can’t ride the fence on this one. If the accusations are true, you are better off taking the children elsewhere, and there is no need to feign a relationship with a father who would sexually assault his children. If the accusations are false, all the more reason to come down on them hard and fast, and show your husband you have faith in him by sharing a bed with him.
 
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olph:
My husband had a pretty good relationship with all the kids save the oldest boy who had really felt boxed in by his controlling nature and had already made himself pretty distant from his father.

The Social services investigated, the Sheriff investigated and both immediately concluded that the charges were unfounded.

As I said, my gut feeling is that he is telling the truth, and that the girls are just unable to express some very serious negative feelings that they have towards him. Only God, the kids and my husband will ever know. My husband has been tested by numerous shrinks and all come up with him not being inclined to pedophilia or sex/porn addiction.

Anyway, here we are. THe girls have never changed their story since, nor has my husband. I guess the seriousness of their feelings make me perhaps overprotective of them. I certainly don’t want them to think that I think they are lying.

Does that change anything of how you guys think I should handle things?
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**Nope, not one bit. Your girls are of an age where they should be more than able to express negative feelings in a more mature manner than they are. If you don’t think it happened, the law doesn’t think it happened (and heavens knows they are quick to assume the worst!) , your dh says it didn’t happen, and the girls have never expressed anything more than a back or tummy rub as little kid - then either cut bait or deal with this in a rational manner. **
There’s no reason for you to have a problem with letting your girls think they are lying, if that’s the case. I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt though and think they have been brainwashed into thinking that a father doing such is actually dirty. If that’s the case, then set them straight that it wasn’t and they need to start behaving better from this point on towards everyone in the family.
End of discussion. Frankly, it shouldn’t have been allowed to continue like this for 3 years. The entire family should have been in group and individual counseling since day one.
 
No, actually, I refused to share a bed with him before the girls made their allegations.

The girls have gone to counseling a few times, but nothing has really come of it yet.

Dad does not object to avoiding situations where they would be alone with them, but does object to avoiding family settings - mass, rosary, birthday parties etc.

Today I asked that he stay away from home as one of the litlle ones were having a birthday party and the younger of the two girls who made the claims was going to run the party. She told me that if Dad came home during the party she would leave. He left and stayed away. He is not at all happy about that situation. He thinks that by going to such extremes I am reinforcing them in their false allegations.
 
Oh, and Rob’s wife, I am a bit confused by your answer.

The girls originally said just back and tummy rub, but the story grew and within 6 months they claimed he was touching their breasts.

And, I do not think my husband did ever act in any sexual way towards them.

Now does it change anything?
 
Did y’all ever think we are having the wool pulled over our eyes??
~ Kathy ~
 
note: this post assumes DH is telling the truth
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olph:
Dad does not object to avoiding situations where they would be alone with them, but does object to avoiding family settings - mass, rosary, birthday parties etc.
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This seems reasonable, assuming DH is telling the truth.
Today I asked that he stay away from home as one of the litlle ones were having a birthday party and the younger of the two girls who made the claims was going to run the party. She told me that if Dad came home during the party she would leave. He left and stayed away. He is not at all happy about that situation. He thinks that by going to such extremes I am reinforcing them in their false allegations.
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Again, I’m assuming your husband is telling the truth here. The accusations themselves do not change anything. The only thing that would change it is if they really were violated by him in some way. You ARE reinforcing their LIES (don’t sugarcoat it here) if you let them run the house based on sensitivity to something they claim happened but you don’t believe did.

Now they have realized they can get exactly what they want by sending him away or else. You are quite effectively punishing your husband for your children’s lies. It is simply a control mechanism, and an excuse not to reconcile the legitimate hurt (verbal abuse, etc) that actually did happen.

And again, if you decide DH is lying after all, go ahead and leave to protect your children if you must, but you still demand that the children respect their father by not calling him names.
 
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olph:
As I said, **my gut feeling is that he is telling the truth, and that the girls are just unable to express some very serious negative feelings that they have towards **him. Only God, the kids and my husband will ever know. My husband has been tested by numerous shrinks and all come up with him not being inclined to pedophilia or sex/porn addiction.

Anyway, here we are. THe girls have never changed their story since, nor has my husband. I guess the seriousness of their feelings make me perhaps overprotective of them. I certainly don’t want them to think that I think they are lying.

Does that change anything of how you guys think I should handle things?
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For me, no. Because of the bolded statement.
Trust your gut, defend and protect your husband.
Instead, you encouraged and supported your daughter’s inability to express properly what it is they are really dealing with.
You did not help your daughters when they really needed it and you aren’t helping them now.

As for that priest who gave you the Smalley book, he was flat out wrong, but for you, it was a breath of fresh air and you sucked it in so deeply you hesitate to release it because it means you can no longer blame only your husband for all your troubles. You’d actually have to own up to your part.

Olph, I’m sorry, I truly am, that you are so mixed up. That priest messed with your head convincing you you and your daughters are innocent victims in all this.

I still encourage you to recognize the damage you have allowed to take place in your home by not being the responsible adult all these years.

My previous advice still holds. Get those girls into counseling. Get your whole family into counseling because their example certainly has to be affecting the little ones. Enough is enough. Regain control of your family. You complain that your husband is the controlling one and yet you’ve done nothing to establish your own control over the situation. You handed all that over to the older daughters. No more, please.

You will certainly remain in my prayers.
 
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Katie1723:
Did y’all ever think we are having the wool pulled over our eyes??
Code: 
                    ~ Kathy ~
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I have to agree and say that thought did cross my mind. Something seems a little odd here. :confused:
 
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olph:
No, actually, I refused to share a bed with him before the girls made their allegations.

The girls have gone to counseling a few times, but nothing has really come of it yet.

A “few times” doesn’t usually lead to anything.

Dad does not object to avoiding situations where they would be alone with them, but does object to avoiding family settings - mass, rosary, birthday parties etc.

I agree with him there. I could see where he would want to assure everyone that there is no chance of improprities.
Today I asked that he stay away from home as one of the litlle ones were having a birthday party and the younger of the two girls who made the claims was going to run the party. She told me that if Dad came home during the party she would leave. He left and stayed away. He is not at all happy about that situation. He thinks that by going to such extremes I am reinforcing them in their false allegations.

:banghead: He’s right to be upset because he is being forced from his own home and daughter’s birthday because that girl is acting like a tyrantical brat and his wife doesn’t have the backbone to put an end to it.

Oh, and Rob’s wife, I am a bit confused by your answer.

The girls originally said just back and tummy rub, but the story grew and within 6 months they claimed he was touching their breasts.
And, I do not think my husband did ever act in any sexual way towards them.
A claim that was unfounded and you supposedly don’t believe and they didn’t even have breast to touch and he isn’t ever alone with them and it shouldn’t have taken 6 months to “grow” the story that far. My girl is 4 years old and if anyone touched her breast area - she’d say they touched her chest. She knows the difference between chest and tummy or back. And they really grill those kids during an investigation. I really find it hard to believe anything happened if it took 6 months of investigations to get to the point where we think he might have touched their chest.

Now does it change anything?

Nope. Still the same advice. Cut bait or make changes. If you’re not happy with the way things are - then change the way things are or accept it as the bed you’ve made and quit gripping.
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olph:
Oh how I wish I were “pulling the wool over your eyes”.
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Then please, answer some questions, based upon the advice you’ve received here:

Do you recognize the role you’ve played in the separation between your daughters and their father?

Do you believe your family, right now, is in good shape?

Do you believe if your husband left the house for good your daughters will be happy? What about the little ones?

Do you believe your daughters respect men?

Do you believe they are on the right path to maturity which will lead to healthy male/female relationships?

Conceding that the fact these accusations about their father is real to your daughters makes it real, whether or not it actually occurred, have your daughters shown any evidence that they have healed from these incidents or are they carrying the damage around inside?

What is really holding you back from attending Retrouvaille?

Here’s the catch: ANSWER from your position. Do not answer with more accusations about your husband, do not answer with more advice from the priests or counselors, do not answer from your children’s perspective. What are your answers with regard to you?
 
Well Yinyangmom…
  1. No, I don’t see how I have contributed to this situation except possibly accidentally
  2. No
  3. Ideally, no, but sometimes I think it would be better than this mess.
  4. Well, no. But I do try to encourage them to continue with counseling.
  5. Well, one of the reasons people doubted their allegations was that aside from their fear and hatred of their father, they show none of the typical characteristics of abused children. Socially, academically they are doing fine. No drugs, depression, promiscuity, etc. So, I guess that they are not carrying around antyhing inside. But they sure display a lot on the outside.
  6. I don’t feel safe emotionally in close quarters with my husband. I do not want to put myself in a position where he could emotionally attempt to control me again.
 
Okay, lets start with #1.

We realize you haven’t purposely contributed to the problem. I’m sure your husband wasn’t trying to wreak havoc on your marriage with his temper and his control.

This is an open-book, open-note, open-neighbor quiz. Provide your answer by making the appropriate action in your real-life situation. Ask for additional advice if you have to. You asked for straight answers, and that’s what you’re getting.

What can YOU do, particularly in dealing with your children, to improve the situation?

Now go do it, and then come back to us for the next piece of advice.
 
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olph:
Then, one of the girls (12 at the time) said she did not like the way he used to cuddle with her a year and more before. He would put his hand under her shirt when he gave her back rubs after mass on Sundays on the family room couch.
A younger one said that she felt the same. That he once put his hand on her stomach and she did not like it.
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Olph, this is a very hard situation to know the right path. I agree, your husband could be telling the truth. First, overall, my usual advice is that your gut feelings ought not be ignored. I’ll stand by that here.

But, being intimately familiar with such accusations, they may well be based on something else, which is true, even though the surface accusation is false or misleading. However, I am also intimately familiar with counselors trying to make a situation into something it isn’t. That easily could have happened to your girls. You probably know all this.

The underlying truth could be something like that the physical contact, even though not sexual at all, was nevertheless highly unwanted and thus repugnant. And the girls knew the truth, but can’t back down from their stated story now or are mired in confusion. Imagine, though, that a bunch of unwanted cuddling from a parent could have been very invasive to the child.

I don’t mean that he wanted to hug them, and they felt too grown up for a hug. I mean that he wanted to stroke and cuddle them, often, regularly, for a longish seeming time, and that he trapped them into doing it, and all they really understood about it is that is was horrible, and so they didn’t want to be around him, so that it couldn’t happen. This may not be what happened, but I guarantee it could have. Notice that similar scenarios to what I am describing could seem one way to the child and another way to the parent. Also, it could be done in a living room, I’m sure.

If this is what happened, do NOT force the girls into close physical proximity to him at any time. Yes, a Christmas celebration could be trouble for them, because they can’t socially say, “no, I don’t want to sit on the couch next to dad because then our bodies would accidentally touch” (squished together on the couch, not a brief touching of hands as you pass the salt).

However, a safe celebration could still be done. Control the seating, etc. Give them chairs to sit on, so someone can’t “casually” sit down real close to them.

BTW, your girls could know how counselors can report things back to a parent. They would never tell a counselor that the breast accusation was a lie if they suspect this. Then counseling will not help them if they can’t be honest about it.

Let me say it very clearly…It is absolutely possible that a parent could touch a child (say a twelve year old) too much, too often, against the child’s will, and it could be very, very damaging, even though none of it was sexual, it was only their back or feet or hair. I expect this problem would not be in isolation from other problems.

However, it could all be a pack of lies. You will never know. I have a zillion more things I could say, but this is huge already.

(If he was controlling towards you, how would he have reacted to them not wanting his affection one day, just because kids do that sort of thing, and then for control reasons, he made them accept it?)
 
This has been such a great line of messages. I really hope olph follows the advice and sees great improvement in her marriage. If you don’t, olph, you will either be instrumental in helping your dh achieve great sanctity by somehow staying with you, or you will succeed in permanently driving him away. If the latter happens, you can bet your sweet life that the courts WILL give him at least alternating Christmases with the kids, and YOU will be the one missing from the celebration. If you can imagine how that would hurt you, know that it will crush your little ones’ tender hearts. But they will spend time with their dad and will eventually wonder why you think he’s such a bad guy.

But don’t change for negative reasons, olph, make the change for great ones, like the opportunity that you still have to make a wonderful, loving marriage. Go for it!!! Set your resentments, which may originally have been justified but to which you have become so attached, at the foot of the cross, and ask Jesus to set you free from them. He sure paid a high price to be able to do that for you.

And one last thought… if any of your troubles stems from spending so many years being pregnant, nursing an infant, chasing toddlers, be sure to discuss NFP w/ dh and both use it lovingly so that you can have both a marriage and a rest! You may be worn out and are subconsciously pushing him away because you just don’t feel like you have any more to give. And then when everything has improved - you might go for #10 after all! And if I’m off base on this, forget I said anything! 🙂

God bless you and your family!
 
Is it possible that the girls knew you were unhappy with DH and made up the story in order to “help” you get away from him? I don’t mean that they were coached or anything, but could they have known that you disliked DH and since they are closer to you, they agreed with you and starting looking for all the ways that their Dad annoyed them or made them uncomfortable? I don’t know if this is coming out right. I do think that your daughters absolutely need to be in counseling. I don’t know if you can force the 18 year old to go since she is an adult, but for the others, I would just make the appointments and take them.
 
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olph:
Our marriage problems came to a head nearly 3 years ago. That is when I finally got some good counsel from a solid priest and realized that it was not me to blame for our marriage problems, it was my husband and his temper and his ruthless control of the family. He is the one that gave me the Gary Smalley book.

My husband had a pretty good relationship with all the kids save the oldest boy who had really felt boxed in by his controlling nature and had already made himself pretty distant from his father.

About 6 months after that epiphany for me, the oldest girls started showing that they did not like him.
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Let me get this straight. 3 years ago you were still sharing a bed with your husband and he had a good relationship with all but the oldest male. Then starting within 6 months after you started talking to this priest and doing a selective reading of Smalley (who doesn’t really agree with Catholic family teaching in the first place), you quit sharing a bed with your husband and the kids started keying in on the fact that it was ok to complain about dad.

From what you are saying, the changes that led to the more dramatic problems in your marriage are directly tied to acting on the advise of that priest. If it is the same priest that advised separation despite not knowing your husband’s side of the story and without also encouraging you to try Retrouvialle, then its an absolute certainty that you are getting outrageously bad advise from that priest. It might be advise that felt good to you at the time, and its probably that your husband needed to make some changes, but the fruits of the advise you’ve gotten from him indicate the advise is rotten.
 
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