Straight answers sought about marriage/separation

[dulcissima]

Olph,

I am married to a man that is a control freak and verbablly and emotionally abusive. My husband won’t go to counseling. Do you know what? I do not understand how you are feeling right now at all. Do you know how happy I would be if my husband did everything that your husband now does for you? I would be overjoyed to see him making those efforts. You say you want to make the marriage work, but do you really? You titled this thread “Straight answers sought about marriage / separation”. It seems to me like you are looking for someone, your priest, your counselor, posters on this forum, to flat out tell you to leave your husband and absolve you from the responsibility of making any decision yourself. You say you don’t want your husband to be controlling, yet somehow he is supposed to be the “initiator” and make you and your children love and respect him. It sounds like he is in an impossible situation because you refuse to exercise the freewill that God has given you and you refuse to forgive as Jesus has instructed us to do. I don’t think you want your marriage to be saved, and if that is the case, stop tormenting this husband of yours and set him free. If you do in fact want to save your marriage, then you need to forgive your husband and start moving forward. Go to the retrouvaille weekend. Go out to dinner with him. As another poster suggested, why don’t you make a list of things you like about your husband, have him make a similar list about you, and take it out to dinner and share your thoughts. Start at least treating your husband like you love and respect him and maybe soon you will find that he is worthy of your love and respect. I think that he has made the effort to earn this much trust from you.

 

[maryalene]

olph:

I appreciate the comments, but I am not at all sure I agree with some of the advice.

It seems to me that because my husband went so long with not really caring about my thoughts and feelings on things, that now that my trust in him is broken, that it is HIS responsibility to earn it back. The male is the initiator, the female the responder. IF he really loves me then he will do whatever it takes to do that and truly be patient in the mean time.

I thought the same thing with my husband. He messed up, he caused the problem, he should fix it. I understand that line of reasoning. But if I had stuck with that reasoning, I would probably be divorced or separated now. All it did was make me angrier because I was dwelling on what he did and pushed him away and made him angry with me because I wouldn’t give him a chance. I truly know why you feel this way, but I also think that if you really want to save your marriage, you need to suck it up and treat him with charity, respect and dignity - even if you don’t think you should - because if you don’t, you marriage is most likely doomed to failure.

Same goes for the children. I do not think he did anything horrendous with them, but clearly, he has lost their trust and admiration as well. Their contempt for him is not at all in the normal range. I am sorry, but I don’t see how my sleeping in the living room could possibly bring about such a strong reaction in them. I feel that he had to have made them feel very violated in some way for them to react so strongly against him. And so, it is incumbent up[on him to show his love by putting them first. By showing that he is willing to do whatever it takes to win then back.

For him to impose himself on them by expecting to go places with them, share meals with them etc. when they clearly do not want to be around him, to me, is sending them the message that he does not care how they feel - and that is just what got him into this mess in the first place.

I think part of being Christian is treating others with respect and charity even when they don’t deserve it. Two wrongs don’t make a right, and as Catholic parents, we have a duty to raise our children as children of God. This means sometimes doing things that are uncomfortable or that make us unhappy. This might be an excellent lesson for your children in how to act unselfishly with Christian love. I don’t know how old your kids are, but I don’t think it is ever to early to teach children how to express anger appropriately and respond constructively.
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[vluvski]

olph:

I appreciate the comments, but I am not at all sure I agree with some of the advice.

The advice is, of course, offered for you to take or leave. At the very least, I hope it is giving you some new objective perspective.

olph:

It seems to me that because my husband went so long with not really caring about my thoughts and feelings on things, that now that my trust in him is broken, that it is HIS responsibility to earn it back. The male is the initiator, the female the responder. IF he really loves me then he will do whatever it takes to do that and truly be patient in the mean time.

So what hasn’t he done in order to earn your trust? He’s been to counseling, gotten his temper under control, agreed to sleep separately, and he even WANTS to go to Retrovaille! What more can he do? Your DH has turned himself into a master contortionist bending over backwards and every other way to please you and the kids.

olph:

Same goes for the children. I do not think he did anything horrendous with them, but clearly, he has lost their trust and admiration as well. Their contempt for him is not at all in the normal range. I am sorry, but I don’t see how my sleeping in the living room could possibly bring about such a strong reaction in them. I feel that he had to have made them feel very violated in some way for them to react so strongly against him. And so, it is incumbent up[on him to show his love by putting them first. By showing that he is willing to do whatever it takes to win then back.

Don’t take this the wrong way, but you children sound, well, like total brats. They sound just like the spoiled-rotten kids I knew in high school with smart mouths, no respect for teachers or parents, were ‘too cool’ for just about everyone, and didn’t have the true kind of friends who would do absolutely anything for you. Calling their father snotface is completely unacceptable, no matter what he did. Because they have (either of their own accord or, more likely, because of your recruiting) lost respect for their father, it is up to YOU to demand that they respect him. They don’t need to like spending time with him, but sending him away for Mass and for Christmas just because THEY don’t want him around is letting them all over both of you. You remember that part of marriage where the two become one? Yeah, well, that means that all of this animousity they harbor toward your husband is coming right back to you, too. There’s a thought!

olph:

For him to impose himself on them by expecting to go places with them, share meals with them etc. when they clearly do not want to be around him, to me, is sending them the message that he does not care how they feel - and that is just what got him into this mess in the first place.

From what you’ve said, your husband is the only one who gives a flying flip about anyone except himself here. He HAS agreed to go away if they “need” it, but what we’re telling you here is that’s exactly what they DON’T need!

They need a **mother AND a father who don’t roll over ** to their every want just because they’ll be uncomfortable. How can he possibly earn their trust back if he’s never allowed to be around? Does it make you proud that your kids “express themselves” by calling their father disrespectful names?

I’d recommend listening to LSK’s advice to put on your big girl pants, but it sounds like your snot-mouthed daughter stole them from you. They’re not very flattering on her, either. You’ll have to show her who’s boss without them before you can put them on.
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[Cupofkindness]

vluvski is right about the daughters. Calling their father names is absolutely unacceptable. Someday, those girls will experience the consequences of the attitude that produced such an ugly response to their father. This entire family needs counseling in order to relearn how to relate in respectful, loving, and productive ways. To the OP, you have done your daughters a grave disservice by encouraging and/or tolerating such behavior. At some point, their anger and resentment will be directed at you, and you will feel the pain your husband is going through as a result of their terrible behavior.

 

[vluvski]

After my scathing post about the attitudes of the children, here’s some more practical advice: Why don’t YOU take the fall for your husband staying?

They’re already siding with you, so if they see you siding with your husband, maybe they’ll back off. You already have them on your side, so maybe they’re adopting this attitude to stay on your side since they feel so distanced from their father.

Satan will use any tool possible to drive a wedge into a marriage. First, your husbands lust and anger served nicely. Then, your unwillingness to forgive. Next, your need to have the kids on “your side.” Now that you’re approaching readiness to heal, the kids are doing the job. Since your husband has been ostracized, it is up to you to nip this in the bud.

Here’s a sample script:
kid: whine “Why does snothead have to be here to ruin Christmas?”

you: “First of all, that’s going to be the last time you call your father snothead or any other disrespectful name. Secondly, your father offered to give us space so we could enjoy Christmas without him. ** I ** asked him to stay because we are a family, and it is high time we started behaving like one. You WILL NOT leave the room when he enters. You WILL respect your father because he is your father, and I love him. (the I love him part is key!) We made our vows to stay together 'til death do us part, and we’ve renewed that decision by behaving like a family beginning today. (acknowledge that this is a bit of a change so they don’t think you’re two-faced) If you have a problem with that, you take it up with me. Your father desperately wants to have a loving relationship with our family, and you WILL give him that chance. Now go see if he’s ready to join us for dinner.”

Then ask DH to lead the family in a blessing before the meal. Don’t ask them to hold hands, but the two of you should hold hands to demonstrate solidarity.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

olph:

I appreciate the comments, but I am not at all sure I agree with some of the advice.

It seems to me that because my husband went so long with not really caring about my thoughts and feelings on things, that now that my trust in him is broken, that it is HIS responsibility to earn it back. The male is the initiator, the female the responder. IF he really loves me then he will do whatever it takes to do that and truly be patient in the mean time.

Blarney. Your dh has gone out of his way to love a woman who has turned his children against him and made him feel like dirt in his own home. It is YOUR responsiblity to love your husband. Period. Let me turn it around here for you. Why would any man stay with a woman who persists in treating him this way unless he loves her?

Same goes for the children. I do not think he did anything horrendous with them, but clearly, he has lost their trust and admiration as well. Their contempt for him is not at all in the normal range. I am sorry, but I don’t see how my sleeping in the living room could possibly bring about such a strong reaction in them. I feel that he had to have made them feel very violated in some way for them to react so strongly against him. And so, it is incumbent up[on him to show his love by putting them first. By showing that he is willing to do whatever it takes to win then back.

**Blarney again. No one “wins” their children. It is not loving to allow children to continue to behave as ill-mannered, disrespectfull tyrants to their parent. You have created this situation with your daughters and I strongly advise you to fix it before it come back to take a bigger bite out of YOU than it is your marriage.

For him to impose himself on them by expecting to go places with them, share meals with them etc. when they clearly do not want to be around him, to me, is sending them the message that he does not care how they feel - and that is just what got him into this mess in the first place.

**Good grief, I can’t believe someone is actually writing this! Your dh is not “imposing” himself on anyone. Families share meals and go places together. That’s a big part of being a family. Your dh is part of this family whether you or the kids like or not and it is NOT an option to exclude him. **

:banghead: ** You can not agree all you want to the well intended good advice given by the posters here. However, one huge fact is unavoidable for you to accept:**

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WHAT YOU ARE DOING ISN’T WORKING! SO WHY DO YOU PERSIST IN DOING IT?!

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Either you really don’t care or your being foolish. If you care at all then i****t’s time to take drastic action and…

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do something that might actually work - take the advice of the posters here! For goodness sake woman, what do you have to lose by taking the advice of this thread?

 

[Silvertip]

What are you waiting for? At least your husband actually wants to work on the marriage vs. leaving you and the children.

Go to Retrouvaille.

 

[YinYangMom]

Silvertip:

What are you waiting for? At least your husband actually wants to work on the marriage vs. leaving you and the children.

Go to Retrouvaille.

She appears to be waiting for someone to tell her she’s right, he’s wrong, and she has every right to insist on remaining married while keeping her husband away from her and his children, that such conditions on the marriage would still make it a good Catholic marriage.

I’m beginning to think she’s waiting for us to give her permission and blessings to have a doghouse built in the back yard for him.

 

[Katie1723]

YinYangMom:

She appears to be waiting for someone to tell her she’s right, he’s wrong, and she has every right to insist on remaining married while keeping her husband away from her and his children, that such conditions on the marriage would still make it a good Catholic marriage.

I’m beginning to think she’s waiting for us to give her permission and blessings to have a doghouse built in the back yard for him.

sounds to me like two kids playing in a sandbox ,each fighting for the same toy.
And she sounds just like my daughter who stomped her feet and said I was wrong when I told her what I thought of her BF.
To the OP, there are a lot of things at “play” here. It just ought not to be you. You are sending your kids the wrong message with your behavior.
~ Kathy ~

 

[olph]

Today is an example of how he is making our difficult family situation worse than it already is.

Last night I stayed up and wrapped little gifts for all the kids (and, yes, for my husband too!). He and the little ones got up first and opened their gifts. Now, rather than going off to work (he sets his own hours, and work has been a little slow lately) he is hanging out in the kitchen where the gifts are left for the older girls. THey will not come downstairs if he is here.

Should I just wait it out til he leaves? Should I take the gifts up to the girls? Should I ask him to kindly go off to work so the kids can enjoy the day? (btw they are teens, 13, 15, 18).
It sounds as though some of you might want me to go up there, demand that they come down, and demand that they enjoy themselves.

I just think that you can not force them to reconcile with their dad, and any coercion on my part could be counterproductive.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

olph:

Should I just wait it out til he leaves? Should I take the gifts up to the girls? Should I ask him to kindly go off to work so the kids can enjoy the day? (btw they are teens, 13, 15, 18).
It sounds as though some of you might want me to go up there, demand that they come down, and demand that they enjoy themselves.

Not quite. We’d want you to go up there, tell the girls that you were wrong to have made them privy to your marital issues and to have allowed them to distance themselves from him as much as they have. Then, tell them you expect them to quit hiding from thier father (be it upstairs or in church) and to start treating their father with respect.

olph:

I just think that you can not force them to reconcile with their dad, and any coercion on my part could be counterproductive.

Who’s talking about coercion? We’re telling you its time to start acting like their mother instead of using them as co-conspiritors in your quest to torture your husband. The reconciliation will happen on its on, provided you fess up to your part and quit trying to justify continuing to encourage the animosity you’ve created between the kids and thier father.

 

[Philena]

Olph. Listen to me. You sound like you are so stressed out that you don’t know where to turn or what to do. It’s called mental exhaustion. You and your husband need to get away from the house and the children. Whatever it takes, you need the time to be alone together and work things out. The best way to do this is through Retrouvaille.

Olph. Listen to me. This past year I was married to a “nice” Catholic man. Got pregnant on the honeymoon. Had a miscarriage at 10 weeks. My husband drank at least a 6 pack every day after work. He was abusive to me and my children. He left me when I was pregnant, came back, and left me again 3-4 times before he finally left the last time. While all this was happening, I lost my job earlier this year & found a new one paying 20% less. He made me file papers for divorce so he could play the victim. Now he has a new girlfriend. He is shameless about still attending Mass.

Girl, we all have problems. They’re called character builders. God allows us to have problems to build our trust in Him.

Rom 5:1 By faith we have been made acceptable to God. And now, because of our Lord Jesus Christ, we live at peace with God.
Rom 5:2 Christ has also introduced us to God’s undeserved kindness on which we take our stand. So we are happy, as we look forward to sharing in the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 But that’s not all! We gladly suffer, because we know that suffering helps us to endure.
Rom 5:4 And endurance builds character, which gives us a hope
Rom 5:5 that will never disappoint us. All of this happens because God has given us the Holy Spirit, who fills our hearts with his love.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

olph:

Today is an example of how he is making our difficult family situation worse than it already is.

Last night I stayed up and wrapped little gifts for all the kids (and, yes, for my husband too!). He and the little ones got up first and opened their gifts. Now, rather than going off to work (he sets his own hours, and work has been a little slow lately) he is hanging out in the kitchen where the gifts are left for the older girls. THey will not come downstairs if he is here.

Then they won’t get their gifts. You and your dd are making this worse, not your dh. Your dh is insisting on being a part of a major holiday tradition - as he AND YOU rightly should for all family members.

Should I just wait it out til he leaves? Should I take the gifts up to the girls? Should I ask him to kindly go off to work so the kids can enjoy the day? (btw they are teens, 13, 15, 18).
It sounds as though some of you might want me to go up there, demand that they come down, and demand that they enjoy themselves.

I’d go up there and tell them this is a FAMILY holiday, not THEIR holiday, and if they want their gifts they will have to participate in the family holiday. Otherwise come dinner, the gifts will be donated to children who appreciate them and understand what the season is supposed to be all about.

I just think that you can not force them to reconcile with their dad, and any coercion on my part could be counterproductive.

The only coercion I see here is those girls and you.
It’s not coercion to expect those girls to behave like young ladies instead of little brats out to ruin everyones holiday with their temper tantrums - it’s parenting and high time you did some of it! Make it clear the family is going to go about enjoying this wonderfull day with or without them, but that it would be nice to have them join you when they are ready to behave in a civil manner. Then walk out and go enjoy the day with your other children and husband.

 

[vluvski]

Olph,
You’re taking a lot of heat from the poster here (myself included), so I just wanted to let you know that I’m really glad you’re still coming back.

The problem is becoming evident, especially in the first line of your most recent post. Your hubby is not exacerbating the situation; the OLDER DAUGHTERS are the problem.

Your husband has every right to want to spend the morning with his family. Most wives and children would be elated to have a husband and father with the luxury of setting his own hours and who actually wants to be a part of their life.

I’m so proud of you for including your husband in the gifts. I’m beginning to think that the lack of resolution has less to do with you and your husband and more to do with conflicting parenting techniques.

In the “traditional” sense, Dad tends to be the bad guy while Mom does the nurturing. Given your husband’s past problems with his temper, he has lost the respect of the children as the disciplinarian. Like a recovering alcoholic, no amount of disciplining will be safe for your husband if he wants to keep his temper under control.

When Mom maintains her role as nurturer in this situation, there is no one left to do the disciplining. The effects of this are very evident in the behavior of the older girls. My point is that someone has to be the one to lay down the law, and it is going to have to be you because of the current family dynamics.

Forcing the girls to “come down and have a good time” isn’t quite what I would suggest. It’s their prerogative not to participate in the family event of opening gifts for St. Nicholas Day (that’s the occasion, right?).

When Dad leaves for work, the special morning is over, and the gifts get put away. Period. When they decide to participate in the family civilly (they don’t have to like it, they just have to be respectful- baby steps here), they’ll get another chance to enjoy the benefits of being a part of this family. Until then, no gifts.

The older girls are disadvantaged because 1) they witnessed and remember your husband at his worst and 2) because they are older, thus being more intuitive and probably privy to more private information that you have shared in moments of poor discretion. That is why their reaction is so harsh compared to that of the younger kids.

You did mention disagreements over parenting styles in your first post. In my opinion, this needs to be where you direct your efforts to finally see results in your marriage (aside from going to Retrovaille).

You and your husband need to have a talk TONIGHT and come to an agreement BOTH of you are happy with about how you’re going to deal with insolence and disrespect. I’ll give you a hint: your husband leaving the room or the house or not participating to appease the older girls is NOT an option.

Do not take their inability to heal their relationship with their Dad as your own. Perhaps they are so wounded that it will be years before they can recover, or are willing to reconcile. That’s their decision, and their loss! It is unfortunate for everyone involved, especially your husband, but forgiveness from God is all we’re guaranteed. You deserve and the rest of the children deserve to have a great relationship with a man who has taken great strides to become the man he ought to have been to begin with.

This is a rhetorical question, please do not answer it: How long has it been since you slept next to your husband? **Tonight is the night, Olph, when you can give him a chance to be the loving, compassionate husband that he wasn’t able to be in the beginning of your marriage. ** You don’t even have to touch eachother this time, just share the same bed. Over the next week or month, work up to being able to have his arm around you. I bet you’ll find yourself sleeping with a totally different person than you remember.

Who knows, you might even find yourself desiring more than just going through the motions of having a marriage !

 

[YinYangMom]

olph:

I just think that you can not force them to reconcile with their dad, and any coercion on my part could be counterproductive.

All I can say is you’re wrong.
YOU are the adult here. You are the parent.

What I don’t understand is your ‘overprotection’ of your older daughters. Whenever you write about them it’s to defend them against being uncomfortable or doing something they don’t want - as if that would damage them forever. You are so afraid to demand anything from them that would upset them.

And yet, what you have done up to now is absolutely destroy their ability to appreciate any male/female relationship they may enter into someday. By presenting their father to them as someone unworthy of their respect and consideration you have effectively taught them all men are to be dismissed, used, not trusted. Your duaghters are headed for miserable relationships. Do you realize that? WHY would you wish upon them the same thing you are going through? You’re practically guaranteeing they will share your misery.

Wakeup and truly protect those daughters of your while you still have them in your home. STOP all this stuff and fix it. NOW.

 

[Josephene]

olph:

Today is an example of how he is making our difficult family situation worse than it already is.

…

Should I just wait it out til he leaves? Should I take the gifts up to the girls? Should I ask him to kindly go off to work so the kids can enjoy the day? (btw they are teens, 13, 15, 18).
It sounds as though some of you might want me to go up there, demand that they come down, and demand that they enjoy themselves.

I just think that you can not force them to reconcile with their dad, and any coercion on my part could be counterproductive.

Happy Feast of St. Nocolas - patron of children, bride and grooms !

Wondering if this is someone pulling a Christmas joke on us !

May it be so !

Even so, if you and dh plan to take sometime off to be together,
hope you would then go off to may be ? a retreat center for few days and let the girls be with dad …
Then , if no come down, no eat etc:

 

[SemperJase]

olph:

Today is an example of how he is making our difficult family situation worse than it already is.
Now, rather than going off to work (he sets his own hours, and work has been a little slow lately) he is hanging out in the kitchen where the gifts are left for the older girls. THey will not come downstairs if he is here.

It is his house! Him sitting in his own kitchen is not making your situation worse. Where did the money for the gifts come from? I’m guessing without his provision, there would be no gifts. And he is the problem?

I just think that you can not force them to reconcile with their dad, and any coercion on my part could be counterproductive.

You are confusing their feelings with their behavior. True, you can’t make them change their feelings. You can and must require them to change their behavior. That is how parenting is done. When your children fought as kids, did you say you must like your brother. Most likely you told them, “you don’t hit your brother”. You focus on behavior, not feelings.

You are right, you can’t force them to love their Dad, mostly because you have taught them not to. You can require them to behave appropriately - not call their father names, go to church with the family, eat dinner together. You also have to model the behavior you require.

Do you realize how much power you have given your daughters? They are the most powerful people in the family. They are controlling you because you refuse to enforce appropriate behavior (again behavior, not feelings). They controls their father because they force him - through you - to spend little to no time with the family. They also control their siblings by preventing them from spending time with their father (he can’t spend time with his other children if he isn’t permitted to be in his own house).

If they don’t want to go down to get their presents, that is their decision. That does not give them the right to force him out of the house and make him neglect his other children. That isn’t fair for the younger kids. What about their feelings?

Here is the catch, changes in behavior preceed changes in feelings. If your daughters ever reconcile it will be because you model correct behavior and require the same from them.

Take back the power you have ceded to your daughtesr. The rest of the family is suffering because of their unwillingness to forgive. It is notable that you have done nothing to encourage that forgiveness. You have pandered to their grudges by distancing your husband from the family.

You can’t coerce them to change their feelings but you can coerce them to act appropriately. Teaching them that inappropriate behavior is justified is a grave disservice to your daughters. Here is the key though, changes in behavior generally preceed changes in feelings. Your requirment of appropriate behavior is the only way they will ever change their feelings.

Forcing your husband away is only reinforcing your daugters’ bad behavior.

Vluvski’s words were brilliant:

Here’s a sample script:
kid: whine “Why does snothead have to be here to ruin Christmas?”

you: “First of all, that’s going to be the last time you call your father snothead or any other disrespectful name. Secondly, your father offered to give us space so we could enjoy Christmas without him. ** I ** asked him to stay because we are a family, and it is high time we started behaving like one. You WILL NOT leave the room when he enters. You WILL respect your father because he is your father, and I love him. (the I love him part is key!) We made our vows to stay together 'til death do us part, and we’ve renewed that decision by behaving like a family beginning today. (acknowledge that this is a bit of a change so they don’t think you’re two-faced) If you have a problem with that, you take it up with me. Your father desperately wants to have a loving relationship with our family, and you WILL give him that chance. Now go see if he’s ready to join us for dinner.”

When you start modeling this behavior you will see a miracle in your family. I may take a little while for your daughters to respond but when they see you modeling positive behavior, they will follow your lead. Even if they still don’t like their father, they will be behaving appropriately and you will find peace in your house.

You are the key. From your own words, your husband has already done all he can. If you don’t act, you have lost your family. It’s on you now…

 

[Gwyn]

Olph
You have received some awesome advise here. Now it up to you to follow through and make it happen.
I know it is hard to tell your kids you were wrong, I hate admitting, I was wrong sometimes to my 6 year old.
But I know you can do it and you will come through.

God Bless You and the family and praying that you all have a Happy, Holy Christmas together (all 11 of you), Actually to start HAVE A HAPPY ST.NICHOLAS DAY.

Also special thanks to all the posters with great advise, it has helped me see my faults, in my married and family life.

 

[vluvski]

SemperJase:

Vluvski’s words were brilliant:

Thanks, Semper, but I have to relenquish credit to my totally awesome parents, in this case my dad.
I can only hope that I play the part of the parent as well as I did the whiny, disrespectful kid!

 

[LSK]

At some point all of us are going to have to accept the fact that the OP has all ready made up her mind. Her husband is the villan. She and her older daughters are the big victims. She cannot or will not be the parent to her older daughters. Instead she has decided to let them run the show because after all, their feelings are so much more important than their behavior.

Her husband has asked her to go to a proven weekend retreat to try and improve their marriage. It has been my experience that the reason people resist trying to improve something is because they know, deep down inside, that if they do they will be giving up the power, the drama and the excitement of the way they are living now and they will, instead, be faced with the every day, hum drum, normal life the rest of us have to face And come on, gang - that is not nearly as exciting as all this drama.

There is an old saying in AA. Never try to teach a pig to sing opera. It will only make you mad and it frustrates the heck out of the pig.