Stripped bare: 'Gay' school plot unveiled

[GregoryPalamas]

Oh stop it. Homosexuals do not have a mental condition. Anymore than heterosexuals do. A bunch of baloney.

On what grounds do you utter such nonsense?

CDL

 

[mattyc4]

LOL. All truth is God’s truth, and he has revealed through sacred Scriptures and the Church that the condition is intrinsically disordered. If you are going to participate on a Catholic discussion board, you should be open to people being good Catholics and upholding what God has revealed to this mystical body of Christ. Science, as a study of what is the case, cannot tell us what ought to be the case, as is does not imply ought. Hume showed us that.

Reason, the capacity by which people infer connections among previous beliefs, also cannot tell us what ought to be the case. On top of that, it cannot tell us what is the case (independent of tautologies). It can only tell us what implies what; the same goes for logic. I can infer that if it rains tomorrow, then I will take my umbrella, but I can’t reason myself to knowing whether it will in fact rain. It is an abstract thought process that tells us little to nothing about the world, particularly nothing about what we ought to do (unless you are a Kantian, but the formula of the law of nature clearly shows homosexuality to be against the categorical imperative and thus wrong).

That leaves “compassion” which I take to be equivalent to a back rub, with maybe a pat on the back and a reassurance that “I’m ok” and so are you. Of course, homosexuals are not ok. They have a mental condition that is intrinsically disordered, being attracted to things they ought not be attracted to. The attraction itself is no sin, mind you, but it is certainly disordered. God has made that abundantly clear from the start, despite all your back rub philosophies.

1. Hume has been refuted by a few scholars I have read this semester, such as Searle. You also seem to be falling into the commonly misunderstood interpretation of Hume.
2. If you are going to participate in any discussion anywhere, you should be open to being wrong. You are not infalliable, nor is your religion. You cannot base an argument on a controversial fact that you assume is true. Scriptures can be intepreted in many different ways. I mean, heck, I can use the scriptures to justify the oppression of women, slavery, and stoning innocent people–all that the Bible condones. How is the Bible infalliable if some parts of it are no longer considered accurate?
3. There are very few moral absolutes, if any. I am basing my argument on current science that says homosexuality is at least partially genetic and has been around for longer than the Bible says humanity has existed.
4. You do not know what you are talking about. Reason, combined with knowledge and science, can be useful. The study of meterology says it is going to rain tomorrow, so I will then take my umbrella. The study of human sexuality shows that is a naturally occuring, perfectly normal attribute, so I will therefore treat homosexuals with respect and allow them to live the way they want to–not according to someone else’s faulty moral standards based on a valuable, if falliable, book.
5. Homosexuality, no matter how many catholics or their religious doctrines and dogmas claim, is neither entropic nor inherently disordered. You have no proof this is so, besides the fact that somebody in the church said so.

You sound somewhat like Augustine, and that is very disheartening. He claims that torturing non-believers results in the fact that “many have found advantage…in being first compelled by fear or pain, so that they might afterwards be influenced by teaching…”

Your fear and pain is a psychological, malovent attack claiming damnation and mortal sin.

I was, certainly, a christian until I came to this board and saw all the hatred, rampant discrimination, and lack of personal accountability and responsibility. God would be ashamed of what religion has become. Who would of thought people would use the Bible, THE BIBLE, to preach discrimination, hatred, and bigotry? My God, what has happened? Who do you think gave you a conscience?

My friend, an atheist, told me to come to this board to see what christianity really was about. I wish he didn’t, as I am rapidly losing faith in both religion and humanity.

How could something so GOOD, so GOOD–result in something absolutely wrong, morally bankrupt, and incredibly sad? The church, and christians everywhere, will look back upon this moral demise with great sadness in years to come.

I am ashamed, and you will all be in my prayers that you recieve compassion.

I need some time off from these boards to reassure myself the majority of the world is not like this.

Matt

 

[goofyjim]

On what grounds do you utter such nonsense?

CDL

On the grounds of the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association. Both have removed it from the list of mental disorders. The Church may continue to call it a moral disorder but it has no right to classify it as a mental disorder.

 

[goofyjim]

Call it whatever you want; semantics are both uninteresting and unimportant. The fact remains: homosexual desire is intrinsically disordered, and as such, those who normalize the desires (and the behavior stemming from those desires) do a disservice to homosexuals by confusing them over their very real need for grace, brought through prayer, fasting, and the sacraments. We ought to be praying that God heal them and make them whole, rather than convince everyone that - despite appearances - they already are healed and whole.

I have SSA. Nothing to be healed from and I am already whole.

 

[I_thirst_4_YOU]

I think this is one of the greatest reasons why we need to send our children (our nieces and nephews, cousins, our children-children, grandchildren etc.) to CATHOLIC schools!

We need to financially support Catholic schools and prayerfully support the pastors of said schools.

God bless America because we need it!

 

[goofyjim]

I think this is one of the greatest reasons why we need to send our children (our nieces and nephews, cousins, our children-children, grandchildren etc.) to CATHOLIC schools!

We need to financially support Catholic schools and prayerfully support the pastors of said schools.

God bless America because we need it!

Granted but I would supplement my children’s Catholic schooling with a respect for homosexuals as well.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Granted but I would supplement my children’s Catholic schooling with a respect for homosexuals as well.

Repsect for the “person” not the “acts”

 

[goofyjim]

Repsect for the “person” not the “acts”

Can I really be the only one in this world who prays that no matter what decisions people make, Jesus accepts everyone into His loving arms? If we are not praying that I doubt whether we are Christians in anything but name only. My prayer excludes noone on the basis of certain sexual acts.

 

[Maxply]

Homosexuality is a complex psychological disorder. Read Jeffrey Satinover’s Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth.

Tennis players HAVE committed suicide over their tennis.

 

[kaygee]

I think your assumption is incorrect. I believe that people in growing numbers believe that homosexuality is, if not superior to, at least equal with anyother kind of suxuality. If popularity determined truth, as many people believe, Christianity would disappear.

CDL

If people in growing numbers believe that homosexuality is, if not superior to, at least equal with any other kind of sexuality, the human race will disappear.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Granted but I would supplement my children’s Catholic schooling with a respect for homosexuals as well.

Repsect for the “person” not the “acts”

Can I really be the only one in this world who prays that no matter what decisions people make, Jesus accepts everyone into His loving arms? If we are not praying that I doubt whether we are Christians in anything but name only. My prayer excludes noone on the basis of certain sexual acts.

So you went from “respect” for homosexuals to “praying” for them.
My comment was directed to your post about respecting homosexuals, what does this have to do with praying for them? Do I have to respect their acts to pray for them? FYI: I pray for all sinners!

As a side note, my kids go to a Catholic school, they are taught to respect all people, but they are not to accept, respect, whatever the “sin”. I think if that changed I may as well have them in public school!

 

[CradleCath]

First, is it NOT a mental illness. NOT. NOT. It was removed in the early 70’s. I am pretty sure most homosexuals wouldn’t want your help. People rarely seek help from smug self-righteous people. They do not want your “help”. They might be willing to give you some help to see reason and logic. I have refuted that it is intrinsically disordered in the past. Your can quote religious doctrine as often as you want, I’ll cite reason, logic, science, and compassion.

Sorry, but if you are citing reason & logic to promote homosexuality, you’re in trouble. Same sex attraction flies against both. This orientation is*** basically*** disordered. It is in opposition to the Natural Law by which God created & “manages” His universe. Reason alone tells us that the two purposes of sexual intercourse are procreation & unity between a married couple.

This is not a matter of “self-righteousness”, but a matter of common sense. God so designed the bodies of men & women to be complementary…they complete one another & have the power to actually participate in the creation of a third person.

As for compassion. NO ONE has the right to belittle another because they are disordered in some way…it doesn’t matter whether said disorder is a crippling physical disease, mental disability, or a disordered sexuality. No one has a right to discriminate against people who suffer from any of the above. This is the law…one cannot refuse a job or decent housing to any of these people because of their disorder. I feel the utmost compassion for someone afflicted with SSA, their lives must be hard…simply because they are “different” & there are those in our society who do not tolerate difference of any kind…relgious difference, racial difference, etc. This does not, however, mean that I must condone disorder & sin & I, for one, resent the constant pressure that comes from the homosexual activists to accept their orientation as natural & good…it is neither.

 

[nobeerinheaven]

1. Hume has been refuted by a few scholars I have read this semester, such as Searle. You also seem to be falling into the commonly misunderstood interpretation of Hume.

This point of Hume’s remains uncontested; Searle does work primarily in philosophy of language, not ethical theory (and I have a feeling whatever article you are alluding to here shows far less than you think it does, as the principle that is does not imply ought is firmly accepted among philosophers). This comes from someone writing his Ph.D. dissertation in ethical theory. Is - simply and incontrovertibly - does not imply ought. You are assuming it does.

1. If you are going to participate in any discussion anywhere, you should be open to being wrong. You are not infalliable, nor is your religion. You cannot base an argument on a controversial fact that you assume is true. Scriptures can be intepreted in many different ways. I mean, heck, I can use the scriptures to justify the oppression of women, slavery, and stoning innocent people–all that the Bible condones. How is the Bible infalliable if some parts of it are no longer considered accurate?

I’m not talking about the Scriptures alone; I’m no protestant. God has revealed himself throughout the ages, not only to the Apostles who wrote down these revelations, but to their successors. Likewise, homosexuality has been consistently condemned by the Church fathers throughout the ages. I am only following their infallible lead.

1. There are very few moral absolutes, if any. I am basing my argument on current science that says homosexuality is at least partially genetic and has been around for longer than the Bible says humanity has existed.

Science has nothing to say about moral “absolutes.” Science doesn’t have access to moral properties as such properties are non-natural. Scientists will never discover them, even in principle. Likewise, the age of a sin doesn’t undermine its status as a sin. Murder has been around even longer than homosexuality, and its old age doesn’t make it morally permissible. The age of a crime has nothing to do with its moral status.

1. You do not know what you are talking about. Reason, combined with knowledge and science, can be useful. The study of meterology says it is going to rain tomorrow, so I will then take my umbrella. The study of human sexuality shows that is a naturally occuring, perfectly normal attribute, so I will therefore treat homosexuals with respect and allow them to live the way they want to–not according to someone else’s faulty moral standards based on a valuable, if falliable, book.

Murder is naturally occurring; watch any nature show for more than 15 minutes. As such, it is perfectly normal. In virtually ever US city, it happens more 100 times a year (in some cases up to 300 times per year). In some countries there is, perhaps, more murder than there are homosexuals (Iran, for instance). Does a sin’s being widespread, in both human and in animal kingdoms, imply it’s not a sin? Why does that work for homosexuality and nothing else?

The principle you are arguing from, that an action’s being normal and natural implies it is morally acceptable, is just another instance of your assuming that is implies ought. Again, you cannot derive an ought from an is. “Detroit has a murder every 2 hours” - Sure, that is true, but it ought not be true. “There have been approximately 46 million abortions since Roe v Wade” - Again, that is true, but it should be false. “Homosexuality is widespread, and naturally occurring”- Sure, that is true, but that doesn’t mean that homosexuality is morally permissible. It tells us nothing about the moral status of the action. The way the world IS does not tell us the way the world OUGHT to be.

 

[nobeerinheaven]

[continued]

1. Homosexuality, no matter how many catholics or their religious doctrines and dogmas claim, is neither entropic nor inherently disordered. You have no proof this is so, besides the fact that somebody in the church said so.

I’ll take God’s word over anyone else’s, personally.

I was, certainly, a christian until I came to this board and saw all the hatred, rampant discrimination, and lack of personal accountability and responsibility. God would be ashamed of what religion has become. Who would of thought people would use the Bible, THE BIBLE, to preach discrimination, hatred, and bigotry? My God, what has happened? Who do you think gave you a conscience?

I’m not really sure what you are talking about here except for my upholding God’s moral teaching about homosexuality. If you say you are a Christian, then you should be willing to submit to God’s moral code (as revealed in Scriptures, to the Church fathers, and to all the subsequent apostolic successors) and not make one up for yourself and submit God (and his religion) to it.

My friend, an atheist, told me to come to this board to see what christianity really was about. I wish he didn’t, as I am rapidly losing faith in both religion and humanity.

How could something so GOOD, so GOOD–result in something absolutely wrong, morally bankrupt, and incredibly sad? The church, and christians everywhere, will look back upon this moral demise with great sadness in years to come.

I am ashamed, and you will all be in my prayers that you recieve compassion.

LOL, browbeat much? Homosexuality is immoral, and our saying that does not make us “wrong, morally bankrupt, [or] incredibly sad,” as God himself has made this known to us time and again. When you finally discover God himself, or he (perhaps) reveals himself to you, you may understand why we don’t change his moral code based on the whims of those around us.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

On the grounds of the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association. Both have removed it from the list of mental disorders. The Church may continue to call it a moral disorder but it has no right to classify it as a mental disorder.

The APA’s buckled under to political pressure over 30 years ago just as much of the rest of American Society has. Since morality has come to mean virtually nothing to many people then it is easy to dismiss the truth as coming from neanderthals (aka Catholics). I suppose you’ve been in conversations with homosexualists and with gay pride parade participants. If that is so I don’t believe that you are serious when you claim that such behavior does not demonstrate a mental disorder.

CDL

 

[pnewton]

Oh stop it. Homosexuals do not have a mental condition. Anymore than heterosexuals do. A bunch of baloney.

You’re playing both sides. You just brought up the need for sensitivity because of them being suicidal. Why do homosexuals need to even be mentioned in schools in this regard? Do homosexuals have a higher suicide rate?

 

[goofyjim]

The APA’s buckled under to political pressure over 30 years ago just as much of the rest of American Society has. Since morality has come to mean virtually nothing to many people then it is easy to dismiss the truth as coming from neanderthals (aka Catholics). I suppose you’ve been in conversations with homosexualists and with gay pride parade participants. If that is so I don’t believe that you are serious when you claim that such behavior does not demonstrate a mental disorder.

CDL

I don’t have frequent conversations with “homosexualists” and “gay pride participants”. I have never been to a gay pride parade in my life. But same sex attraction is NOT a mental disorder. It does not fit any of the requirements such as treatable by medication, curable or whatever. The individual with just the attraction is able to function normally in society with absolutely no psychological treatment whatsoever. Now if you people can’t understand that, what a pity.

 

[goofyjim]

You’re playing both sides. You just brought up the need for sensitivity because of them being suicidal. Why do homosexuals need to even be mentioned in schools in this regard? Do homosexuals have a higher suicide rate?

As if you on the opposing side do not play both sides. You keep arguing that it is not true that the majority of teen suicides are young homosexuals then try to say that homosexuals are more prone to suicide. They do attempt or even commit it my friend. It is because there are no visible representatives of those with SSA to keep them going. Instead they get the nonsense from the religious right that there is something wrong with them from the get go.

 

[nobeerinheaven]

Instead they get the nonsense from the religious right that there is something wrong with them from the get go.

Something IS wrong with them from “the get go.” Their desires are intrinsically disordered. Telling them otherwise is doing them a disservice, as it’s a lie that frustrates the possibility of help from God (and, perhaps, counseling).

 

[goofyjim]

Something IS wrong with them from “the get go.” Their desires are intrinsically disordered. Telling them otherwise is doing them a disservice, as it’s a lie that frustrates the possibility of help from God (and, perhaps, counseling).

Nothing wrong with them from the get go. There is nothing wrong with me just for being SSA. I don’t require counseling and God loves me without exception.