struggling with mary

[PromisesTrue21]

 

[Luvadoxi]

Out of curiosity, FathersKnowBest and others, what heresy was I guilty of in post #47? Is it a named one, or have I created an entirely new heresy I’m reminded, as a convert, of how easy it is to fall into heresy and how finely tuned the distinctions are. I’m trying to learn not to do this! Many thanks.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Fatherknowsbest #33

You asked 'why not try to emulate Mary as well as Christ"? We have a Perfect example in Jesus Christ to emulate – All others are totally human and are prone to sinfulness.

And Mary Was the earthly mother of Jesus – the mother of His human nature only. Being conceived of the Holy Spirit , Jesus the human baby / being born as a ‘human’ baby allowed Him to be born with human desires – just like Us. In other words – Jesus the Christ Child – was Both God in the flesh – the 2nd part of the Godhead And part ‘us’. Because He was part ‘us’ , He was able to experience all the temptations that We experience. He experienced all the same emotions as we do. But – He also had the strength to Not give in to any of those temptations – He used God’s Word to defeat the temptations that Satan gave to Him. And We can do the same – use God’s Word to defeat Satan’s temptations to us.

How could Mary be the Mother of God – because 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth … mankind included. Mary Was the ‘tool’ that God used to deliver Jesus His Son into the world as a Baby.

A comment was made earlier about the Church knowing who the saints are? What is the term “Church” referring To? And Where is ‘purgatory’ located?

I don’t know if you have a son or daughter but if you do, are you the mother of only half of your son or daughter?

Jesus is not 50% Man and 50% God, He is 100% Man and 100% God, in other words Jesus is not half man and half God but fully Man and fully God, Jesus, God-Incarnate is just as human as you and I.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Just wanted to point out that Mary is our spiritual mother and not our sister. If we are brothers of Christ Jesus then she would be our mother not our sister.

Jesus said, “Who is My mother, who is My brother, who is My sister, he (she) who does the Will of My Father” or words to that effect.

So it was Jesus, Himself, Who said we (humans) are to be His Spiritual mother in bringing Jesus into the world in quite a different way than Mary did in the Incarnation.

The Catholic Church actually teaches that Mary is the daughter of the Father, so it is actually a teaching of the Catholic Church that Mary is our sister.

 

[Luvadoxi]

Miriam that video is beautiful–thank you for sharing! I wish everyone in the world could see it.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Out of curiosity, FathersKnowBest and others, what heresy was I guilty of in post #47? Is it a named one, or have I created an entirely new heresy

I’m not saying you’re a heretic.

But in post 49 I described a heresy which denied that Mary was Theotokos.

 

[Miriam1947]

Miriam that video is beautiful–thank you for sharing! I wish everyone in the world could see it.

I’m so glad you liked it. I first found it on Jennifer Fulwiler’s site conversiondiary.com. She is a former atheist who is now Catholic.

 

[Goya]

Out of curiosity, FathersKnowBest and others, what heresy was I guilty of in post #47? Is it a named one, or have I created an entirely new heresy I’m reminded, as a convert, of how easy it is to fall into heresy and how finely tuned the distinctions are. I’m trying to learn not to do this! Many thanks.

FYI: to be ‘guilty’ of heresy, you must hold obstinately, to a view that is contrary to dogma, or other teaching of the Church of similar dignity–and you must do so, overtly.

That means you first must know what the Church teaches, expressly reject it, and ‘champion’ it (that is, hold to it as Truth, and do so publicly), to others.

Disbelieving Church teachings privately, or not ‘buying’ into them, is not heresy.

It’s not approved, or recommended, but it’s not heresy either.

CAVEAT: That’s just my understanding of heresy, based on recollection from looking into it before. I gladly (as always) welcome correction, where I have written or spoken in error–and fwiw, I’m not an authority, and I don’t hold myself out as such. Just a humble believer…

 

[po18guy]

Jesus wasn’t half human and half God. He was fully human, and fully God. A mystery for sure!

PS: I don’t know where purgatory is…or if it’s a place or a purification process. One misunderstanding I had when I was Protestant was that purgatory was a “second chance” at Heaven. But everyone in Purgatory (wherever or whatever it is) is saved–going to Heaven. I like to think of it as the foyer or “mudroom” of Heaven!

Purgatory is a state of being. It is biblical, and those who say it is not are simply ignoring scripture for the sake of tribal theology.

 

[Sleepy1]

I had a trouble with praying to Mary at 1st
I didn’t understand why we should even pray to her(or any saint)
Looking back, i had judged the notion way too prematurely.
Once i started reading into her and why she is so important to us, i realized where i was wrong.
She is one of many, many ways to get close to God.
Our mother, our reminder of grace and love.

 

[Lion_Heart]

Greetings in Christ Sleepy1

John 14:6; Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[crochet_lady]

po8guy

What do you mean by "for the sake of ‘tribal theology’. Where is the Scriptural foundation for purgatory?

Why is there a Need for ‘purgatory’? A person who accepts Jesus Christ’s shed blood on calvary as being all that’s needed for the forgiveness of sin --God sees us Through the shed blood – just as if we’d never sinned "Justified’. When a person makes the ‘transition’ into eternity – there is No chance for any cleansing / purging of any sins.

No one wants to think that Anyone will have to spend eternity Away from God / heaven. So we’d Like to have a ‘place’ where everyone’s potentially unforgiven sins will be taken care of – and at Some point in the future – the person Will be purified enough to get into heaven.

 

[po18guy]

What do you mean by "for the sake of ‘tribal theology’. Where is the Scriptural foundation for purgatory?

Team sports. Competition for truth and souls. Let’s divide Christianity into competing teams and go at it. I do not recall Jesus praying to he Father for a divided Body. That is tribal theology. Bible alone theology - which your protestant brothers and sisters probably disagree with you on. Who’s right? What if the Methodists think you are wrong and you think they are wrong? Stalemate, with no governing authority to decide. Therefore, truth is whatever a given protestant says it is? What kind of theology is that?

Why is there a Need for ‘purgatory’? A person who accepts Jesus Christ’s shed blood on calvary as being all that’s needed for the forgiveness of sin --God sees us Through the shed blood – just as if we’d never sinned "Justified’. When a person makes the ‘transition’ into eternity – there is No chance for any cleansing / purging of any sins.

You are ignoring an awful lot of scripture and adding your personal meaning to it here. “Do not go beyond what is written” - the bible Christian’s golden rule. Jesus’ sacrifice opened the gates of heaven. It is up to us to walk through them Are you saying that you can sin freely without cost - either in this life or the next? Really? That thought occurred to exactly no one in the first 1,500 years of the Church.

Why did Paul have a ministry of reconciliation for those already Christian? Why was Paul an ambassador (with authority) for Christ? Why did Paul forgive sins in the person of Christ? What was Jesus talking about when He said that some sins would not be forgiven in this world, or in the world to come. Paul teaching that on the day of the Lord, a man’s work would be revealed. Some of it would burn up, but the man would be saved - but only as one passing through fire. Explain how we pass through fire on our way to heaven? Catholic and Orthodox bibles have the book of 2 Maccabees. High Priest Judas Maccabeus thouight that it was a good and holy thing to offer prayer for the dead, that they might be loosed from their sins. This is official Jewish priestly practice that is not in the 66 book bible. Sins loosed - where have we heard that before? Matthew 18:18, John 20:23 - Jesus gave the Apostles the power to bind and loose more than just sins. It’s in the bible - you just have to have a complete bible and pay attention to all of it.

A few of the verses supporting a state of purification:
Apocalypse 21:27
1 Peter 3:19
Matt 12:32
Lk 12:58
Luke 16:19-31
1 Corinthians 3:10-15

You hang your trintarain belief on as few verses as these Was Paul crazy? lying? .

No one wants to think that Anyone will have to spend eternity Away from God / heaven.

Clearly, some will Romans 3:4, 11:22, 2 Peter 2:20. Yet, John said that some sins lead to death, while others do not - that we should pray for those whose sins do not lead to death.

So we’d Like to have a ‘place’ where everyone’s potentially unforgiven sins will be taken care of – and at Some point in the future – the person Will be purified enough to get into heaven.

You have just described the purgation process. Why do you need fear of the Lord (2 Cor 5:11) if Jesus’ sacrifice is all you need?

There is an awful lot more to this than simply “Jesus saves and so I’m good to go!”

 

[sennincatholic]

Team sports. Competition for truth and souls. Let’s divide Christianity into competing teams and go at it. I do not recall Jesus praying to he Father for a divided Body. That is tribal theology. Bible alone theology - which your protestant brothers and sisters probably disagree with you on. Who’s right? What if the Methodists think you are wrong and you think they are wrong? Stalemate, with no governing authority to decide. Therefore, truth is whatever a given protestant says it is? What kind of theology is that?

You are ignoring an awful lot of scripture and adding your personal meaning to it here. “Do not go beyond what is written” - the bible Christian’s golden rule. Jesus’ sacrifice opened the gates of heaven. It is up to us to walk through them Are you saying that you can sin freely without cost - either in this life or the next? Really? That thought occurred to exactly no one in the first 1,500 years of the Church.

Why did Paul have a ministry of reconciliation for those already Christian? Why was Paul an ambassador (with authority) for Christ? Why did Paul forgive sins in the person of Christ? What was Jesus talking about when He said that some sins would not be forgiven in this world, or in the world to come. Paul teaching that on the day of the Lord, a man’s work would be revealed. Some of it would burn up, but the man would be saved - but only as one passing through fire. Explain how we pass through fire on our way to heaven? Catholic and Orthodox bibles have the book of 2 Maccabees. High Priest Judas Maccabeus thouight that it was a good and holy thing to offer prayer for the dead, that they might be loosed from their sins. This is official Jewish priestly practice that is not in the 66 book bible. Sins loosed - where have we heard that before? Matthew 18:18, John 20:23 - Jesus gave the Apostles the power to bind and loose more than just sins. It’s in the bible - you just have to have a complete bible and pay attention to all of it.

A few of the verses supporting a state of purification:
Apocalypse 21:27
1 Peter 3:19
Matt 12:32
Lk 12:58
Luke 16:19-31
1 Corinthians 3:10-15

You hang your trintarain belief on as few verses as these Was Paul crazy? lying? .
Clearly, some will Romans 3:4, 11:22, 2 Peter 2:20. Yet, John said that some sins lead to death, while others do not - that we should pray for those whose sins do not lead to death.
You have just described the purgation process. Why do you need fear of the Lord (2 Cor 5:11) if Jesus’ sacrifice is all you need?

There is an awful lot more to this than simply “Jesus saves and so I’m good to go!”

great post!
I realy wonder why some protestants choose to ignore scriptural passages referring to purgatory even when it is explicitly laid out infront of them. i can’t understand such behaviour.

 

[gmanlq]

Jesus said, “Who is My mother, who is My brother, who is My sister, he (she) who does the Will of My Father” or words to that effect.

So it was Jesus, Himself, Who said we (humans) are to be His Spiritual mother in bringing Jesus into the world in quite a different way than Mary did in the Incarnation.

The Catholic Church actually teaches that Mary is the daughter of the Father, so it is actually a teaching of the Catholic Church that Mary is our sister.

The Church has always taught that Mary is our mother and never our sister. Jesus is stressing that if a person wants to be united with the Trinity and become a part of Jesus’ family that person must do as God commands.

 

[gmanlq]

Greetings in Christ Sleepy1

John 14:6; Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

With love in Christ,
LH

Hello Lion Heart,

John 14:6 is correct and it is important to remember that there are many ways we can come to Jesus.

God bless,

 

[Simca]

Mary’s messages are always the same: She always tells us to turn to her Son and to live a life of prayer. (I realize all these messages are not church-approved.)

Catholics put Jesus first in all things. Sometimes to others, it may not seem like it, but if Jesus isn’t put first, then we’re on the wrong track.

 

[gmanlq]

Team sports. Competition for truth and souls. Let’s divide Christianity into competing teams and go at it. I do not recall Jesus praying to he Father for a divided Body. That is tribal theology. Bible alone theology - which your protestant brothers and sisters probably disagree with you on. Who’s right? What if the Methodists think you are wrong and you think they are wrong? Stalemate, with no governing authority to decide. Therefore, truth is whatever a given protestant says it is? What kind of theology is that?

You are ignoring an awful lot of scripture and adding your personal meaning to it here. “Do not go beyond what is written” - the bible Christian’s golden rule. Jesus’ sacrifice opened the gates of heaven. It is up to us to walk through them Are you saying that you can sin freely without cost - either in this life or the next? Really? That thought occurred to exactly no one in the first 1,500 years of the Church.

Why did Paul have a ministry of reconciliation for those already Christian? Why was Paul an ambassador (with authority) for Christ? Why did Paul forgive sins in the person of Christ? What was Jesus talking about when He said that some sins would not be forgiven in this world, or in the world to come. Paul teaching that on the day of the Lord, a man’s work would be revealed. Some of it would burn up, but the man would be saved - but only as one passing through fire. Explain how we pass through fire on our way to heaven? Catholic and Orthodox bibles have the book of 2 Maccabees. High Priest Judas Maccabeus thouight that it was a good and holy thing to offer prayer for the dead, that they might be loosed from their sins. This is official Jewish priestly practice that is not in the 66 book bible. Sins loosed - where have we heard that before? Matthew 18:18, John 20:23 - Jesus gave the Apostles the power to bind and loose more than just sins. It’s in the bible - you just have to have a complete bible and pay attention to all of it.

A few of the verses supporting a state of purification:
Apocalypse 21:27
1 Peter 3:19
Matt 12:32
Lk 12:58
Luke 16:19-31
1 Corinthians 3:10-15

You hang your trintarain belief on as few verses as these Was Paul crazy? lying? .
Clearly, some will Romans 3:4, 11:22, 2 Peter 2:20. Yet, John said that some sins lead to death, while others do not - that we should pray for those whose sins do not lead to death.
You have just described the purgation process. Why do you need fear of the Lord (2 Cor 5:11) if Jesus’ sacrifice is all you need?

There is an awful lot more to this than simply “Jesus saves and so I’m good to go!”

Hi Poguy,

Great post on purgatory. I imagine that protestants have a very hard time with purgatory and they do so because the founders of their faith dropped seven books of the bible and are missing a great deal of what God desires for us. They also ignore the correct interpretation of the bible as taught by Jesus’ Catholic Church in many instances and ignore the parts that don’t line up with their beliefs. In my opinion God allowed this division created by the influence of the devil for some greater good. It is my prayer that one day God will unite us all under his Church that still lives today after 2000+ years.

 

[Randy_Carson]

po8guy

What do you mean by "for the sake of ‘tribal theology’. Where is the Scriptural foundation for purgatory?

Why is there a Need for ‘purgatory’? A person who accepts Jesus Christ’s shed blood on calvary as being all that’s needed for the forgiveness of sin --God sees us Through the shed blood – just as if we’d never sinned "Justified’. When a person makes the ‘transition’ into eternity – there is No chance for any cleansing / purging of any sins.

No one wants to think that Anyone will have to spend eternity Away from God / heaven. So we’d Like to have a ‘place’ where everyone’s potentially unforgiven sins will be taken care of – and at Some point in the future – the person Will be purified enough to get into heaven.

Your post reveals a misunderstanding about Purgatory that is probably the source of your objection…clear up the misunderstanding and the objection goes away. So, let’s do that.

When someone dies, they are judged immediately by God, and there are only two possibilities: heaven or hell. Now, if the person has died in a state of grace and is judged worthy of heaven, the only question is whether they are ready to enter heaven immediately or whether they still need to change into their “wedding garments” - to get cleaned up for the party after working in the fields. The process by which this final cleansing or purgation performed by God is known as Purgatory.

Purgatory is in no way an unbiblical doctrine. Rather, it is completely biblical on both implicit and explicit grounds. Implicitly, it can be derived from the biblical principles that we still sin till death but that there will be no sin in glory. Thus between death and glorification must come purification.

Explicitly, we not only have the witness of passages such as 2 Maccabees 12, but also the witness of passages describing our accounting before Christ in the particular judgment, including the especially vivid depiction of one escaping through the flames in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

Jesus himself adds to this when he speaks in Matthew 12:32 of a sin which will neither be forgiven in this age nor the age to come, implying that some sins (venial ones of which we have not repented before death) will be forgiven when we repent the first moment of our afterlife.

Furthermore, in Matthew 5:25-26, Jesus tells us: “Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.”

In this parable God is the Judge, and if we have not reconciled with our neighbors before we see God, God will hold us accountable for the wrong we did to them. This is what the Bible means when it says that God will take our revenge for us, so we should not take it ourselves, because God will defend the cause of the poor and uphold the case of the widow.

Whenever a poor person or widow (or anyone else) is oppressed or wronged, God will hold the oppressor accountable for what he did – unless the wronged person freely chooses to forgive the offender. In that case, God will not hold the offender accountable for the wrong he did on a human level (i.e., against the human he wronged), but unless he has obtained forgiveness from God for the wrong he did against God, he will still be held accountable for that.

Thus in our sins against others they are two dimensions – the human, by which we sin against our neighbor in the act, and the divine, by which we sin against God in the act. Thus theft is a sin against our neighbor from whom we stole and a sin against God, whose law we broke. We must obtain forgiveness from God for the divine aspect of our sin, but, as Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:25-26, we must obtain forgiveness for the human aspect of our sin from the human we sinned against. If we do not, God will hold us accountable.

Of course, since humans are finite beings, our sins against them can only merit finite punishment (compared to our sins against God, who is an infinite being, so our sins against him can merit infinite punishment). Because this punishment is finite, it must be temporary (for an eternal punishment is infinite since involves the reception of pain over an infinite period of time). But if this punishment we will receive when we are judged by God (according to Jesus’ parable) is temporary, then it’s purgatory. Thus Jesus says, “You will not get out until you have paid the last penny,” because there is a time when your finite punishment due to the finite, human dimension of your sins will be over.

In any event, more than enough has been said to show the inaccuracy of the charge that purgatory is an unbiblical doctrine. In reality, it is very firmly rooted in Scripture.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Greetings in Christ Sleepy1

John 14:6; Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

With love in Christ,
LH

This bible verse and “No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and to Whomever the Son wishes to reveal Him” are two of the reasons why I believe that it was thru Jesus that I met Dad, God the Father.