Struggling Young Woman

[SerraSemper]

Im a woman in her twenties and I’m struggling with a question. My boyfriend and i are devout Catholics, but we have slipped several times and went to third base. What I mean is that we had manual sex. I let him finger me and penetrate me with his fingers. We have not done anything else: nothing like oral or vaginal sex. And I know he did fingering when he was a young teen. This also stresses me out because I feel like he didn’t wait for me and that part of him should be mine.

Just want to know: are we still virgins if we’ve done that and nothing more?

Note: please be sensitive. I have emotional problems and this whole topic hurts me tremendously.

Good morning, Hellosunshine!

When I was considering marriage, I always wanted a virgin for a husband. It took a long time for me to realize that I could actually love someone who was not a virgin but who had repented and lived chastely for quite some time (and who didn’t have dangerous STDs). It was the person I wanted to love, and sometimes such a person might have sinned grievously in the sight of God. While I preferred to have a virgin, I realized that my heart had expanded, and that I could actually marry someone who had “secondary virginity”.

It is very common for women who marry a man who has been divorced or has had other relationships to be jealous and insecure about her position and relationship with the man. This jealousy either has foundation (the man is a womanizer), or not (he has truly repented or you are his one focus). A prudent woman who evaluates a man for marriage looks at his behavioral patterns. If he slipped once as a teenager, that is not a danger sign. If he did so from his teens up to the point of his dating you, then, yes, a prudent woman would pause and evaluate the risks of infidelity and STDs and so on.

Obviously it is up to the woman if she mandates virginity as an absolute requirement for a potential spouse. And just as obviously, she may end up as a spinster because most men engage in or have engaged in porn, sex, and solitary sin according to the statistics. Men who have saved themselves are pretty rare, but they do exist, and I’ve been privileged to meet some of them. To put things very bluntly, women should never, ever, marry someone they are jealous of. It ruins the marriage because marriage is built on trust and mutual respect. Same for men. If they are irritated by the kisses and so on that their love has given to others, they should not marry until/unless that is worked through.

I can understand your discomfort and dismay in your situation. While I would not call you a virgin, you certainly can have “secondary” virginity restored as the good Lord freely forgives. Yes, some innocence has been lost. However, what you need to focus on now is developing your relationship with Jesus (marriage exists for the spouses to get to heaven more easily together than apart) and in evaluating your relationship with your boyfriend. Are you both committed to working for the other’s genuine good (which includes being chaste and growing in holiness)? To make the necessary sacrifices for this to happen? Are you personally able to continue in this relationship if you are worried about his having been involved with another to the extent that it’s really destructive in your relationship with him? You know, women are much more emotionally attached to those they have sexual relations with. This is partially due to certain hormones that are released. Men, as a general rule, don’t. It’s more of a physical thing, and they are able to detach themselves a lot more easily. Thus, if your boyfriend slipped once, his heart is probably not with her, whoever she is. I’m not saying that anyone should condone sin, I’m simply saying that you have the choice of moving on in your relationship with your boyfriend and accepting that you/he are weak human beings in need of God’s grace like the rest of us, or you may opt to wait for a virgin husband or perhaps consider consecrated life in most of its forms other than consecrated virginity.

I guess the bottom line is be what you are, a cherished daughter of God. Once forgiven, do as Magdalene did and cling close to Christ. I think it was the Little Flower that said that Magdalene didn’t stop to think whether she was worthy or not… she followed her Love and acted as His cherished friend. He didn’t condemn her for her former lifestyle, she was a close friend. She didn’t hold back thinking of her past… she was forgiven and that was the end of that! We do ourselves a disservice by dwelling on our past sins and faults and the past sins and faults of others. We simply need to beg forgiveness and then logically work out what needs to be done. If someone’s past disturbs us, we need to examine it, find a reasonable response, and follow it.

God bless you, my sister in Christ!

 

[Chevaleresse]

Aren’t there 10 commandents? Isn’t adultery (sexual sin) for instance just “one area of sin”? It is serious but it’s not the worse sin!

What’s your point? Mass genocide and fornication are both mortal sins (“one area of sin” too). So making light of one is making light of the other. Most people think they have to accept the first one because it’s so common, but no one doubts that everyone will reject the second.

 

[Chevaleresse]

Good morning, Hellosunshine!

When I was considering marriage, I always wanted a virgin for a husband. It took a long time for me to realize that I could actually love someone who was not a virgin but who had repented and lived chastely for quite some time (and who didn’t have dangerous STDs). It was the person I wanted to love, and sometimes such a person might have sinned grievously in the sight of God. While I preferred to have a virgin, I realized that my heart had expanded, and that I could actually marry someone who had “secondary virginity”.

It is very common for women who marry a man who has been divorced or has had other relationships to be jealous and insecure about her position and relationship with the man. This jealousy either has foundation (the man is a womanizer), or not (he has truly repented or you are his one focus). A prudent woman who evaluates a man for marriage looks at his behavioral patterns. If he slipped once as a teenager, that is not a danger sign. If he did so from his teens up to the point of his dating you, then, yes, a prudent woman would pause and evaluate the risks of infidelity and STDs and so on.

Obviously it is up to the woman if she mandates virginity as an absolute requirement for a potential spouse. And just as obviously, she may end up as a spinster because most men engage in or have engaged in porn, sex, and solitary sin according to the statistics. Men who have saved themselves are pretty rare, but they do exist, and I’ve been privileged to meet some of them. To put things very bluntly, women should never, ever, marry someone they are jealous of. It ruins the marriage because marriage is built on trust and mutual respect. Same for men. If they are irritated by the kisses and so on that their love has given to others, they should not marry until/unless that is worked through.

I can understand your discomfort and dismay in your situation. While I would not call you a virgin, you certainly can have “secondary” virginity restored as the good Lord freely forgives. Yes, some innocence has been lost. However, what you need to focus on now is developing your relationship with Jesus (marriage exists for the spouses to get to heaven more easily together than apart) and in evaluating your relationship with your boyfriend. Are you both committed to working for the other’s genuine good (which includes being chaste and growing in holiness)? To make the necessary sacrifices for this to happen? Are you personally able to continue in this relationship if you are worried about his having been involved with another to the extent that it’s really destructive in your relationship with him? You know, women are much more emotionally attached to those they have sexual relations with. This is partially due to certain hormones that are released. Men, as a general rule, don’t. It’s more of a physical thing, and they are able to detach themselves a lot more easily. Thus, if your boyfriend slipped once, his heart is probably not with her, whoever she is. I’m not saying that anyone should condone sin, I’m simply saying that you have the choice of moving on in your relationship with your boyfriend and accepting that you/he are weak human beings in need of God’s grace like the rest of us, or you may opt to wait for a virgin husband or perhaps consider consecrated life in most of its forms other than consecrated virginity.

I guess the bottom line is be what you are, a cherished daughter of God. Once forgiven, do as Magdalene did and cling close to Christ. I think it was the Little Flower that said that Magdalene didn’t stop to think whether she was worthy or not… she followed her Love and acted as His cherished friend. He didn’t condemn her for her former lifestyle, she was a close friend. She didn’t hold back thinking of her past… she was forgiven and that was the end of that! We do ourselves a disservice by dwelling on our past sins and faults and the past sins and faults of others. We simply need to beg forgiveness and then logically work out what needs to be done. If someone’s past disturbs us, we need to examine it, find a reasonable response, and follow it.

God bless you, my sister in Christ!

And just because the chances of you marrying a virgin husband are lower, don’t go have sex yourself to “even the score” with your future husband. That suggests you’re already jealous, and certainly not ready for marriage with that mindset.

I know people who did that, and they ended up really regretting it. Just back off now before things* really* get out of hand.

Also, don’t reject out of pride (evaluation is not pride) but don’t accept out of pride either. That’s just as bad.

 

[kelvinf]

What’s your point? Mass genocide and fornication are both mortal sins (“one area of sin” too). So making light of one is making light of the other. Most people think they have to accept the first one because it’s so common, but no one doubts that everyone will reject the second.

What do you mean by accept?

• Manasseh, King of Judah shed much innocent blood including the burning of his sons. But he repented and was forgiven by God.
• King David orchestrated the murder of Uriah and stole his wife. He repented and was forgiven.
• St Paul, as Saul, consented to the execution of St. Steven and was dedicted to the persecution of the Church before his conversion.
• Alessandro Serenelli murdered St. Maria Goretti, repented, did his time behind bars and lived a normal life thereafter.

So what’s your point?

 

[Chevaleresse]

What do you mean by accept?

• Manasseh, King of Judah shed much innocent blood including the burning of his sons. But he repented and was forgiven by God.
• King David orchestrated the murder of Uriah and stole his wife. He repented and was forgiven.
• St Paul, as Saul, consented to the execution of St. Steven and was dedicted to the persecution of the Church before his conversion.
• Alessandro Serenelli murdered St. Maria Goretti, repented, did his time behind bars and lived a normal life thereafter.

So what’s your point?

What to accept in a future spouse in terms of their past. Again: people will tell others to accept sexual sin in a spouse’s past because it’s just “one area of sin”, but then when it comes to other mere “areas of sin” (like mass genocide - equal), they make an exception. I just find it hilarious and contradictory.

 

[kelvinf]

What to accept in a future spouse in terms of their past. Again: people will tell others to accept sexual sin in a spouse’s past because it’s just “one area of sin”, but then when it comes to other mere “areas of sin” (like mass genocide - equal), they make an exception. I just find it hilarious and contradictory.

First of all, all sins are forgivable by God!

The gravity of sin varies from sin to sin. Some sexual sins could be venial.

So according to you, what sins are acceptable for marriage?

 

[Havard]

People say (and I really hate this) that sexual sin is “just one area of sin” in response. It’s annoying. It has to be one of the most useless and pointless things to say. It does nothing to refute the point that sexual sin is serious in anyone’s past (and how I could expect a man to be a leader of a family if he’s failed in such a major way).

Just wondering if you could clarify this more for me. For example, I’m not a virgin, but I have changed a lot since then, I’ve grown tremendously in faith, and I’ve been living chastely for well over a decade. I want very much to have a wife and children, and I am always praying and working on/preparing myself for the day that hopefully happens. How and how much do you think my past sin should be a factor in women trusting my suitability as husband/father?

 

[Chevaleresse]

The gravity of sin varies from sin to sin. Some sexual sins could be venial.

Umm… I was referring to mortal sin. The example I used would be equivalent. Either way, you’re side-stepping what I’m saying.

So according to you, what sins are acceptable for marriage?

We’re not playing Talmudic gotcha games. Quit it.

For example, I’m not a virgin, but I have changed a lot since then, I’ve grown tremendously in faith, and I’ve been living chastely for well over a decade. I want very much to have a wife and children, and I am always praying and working on/preparing myself for the day that hopefully happens.

How and how much do you think my past sin should be a factor in women trusting my suitability as husband/father?

Basically, I wouldn’t marry you. Your past sin does reflect what you are capable of, and what you are capable of starting again. Many people with those sins see them surface again (you’ve read the threads about sexual sin/unchastity in marriage, right?). You’re supposed to be the leader of the family, and I’m supposed to be able to trust you.

I think women really need to raise their standards for men. Catholic/Christian men are starting to follow Muslim men. Muslim men have temporary marriages where they can have sex all they want before they get married permanently (with expectation that the permanent wife will just “deal with it and forget it”). I do no wrong rejecting you for marriage because of your sin.

 

[Havard]

Basically, I wouldn’t marry you. Your past sin does reflect what you are capable of, and what you are capable of starting again. Many people with those sins see them surface again (you’ve read the threads about sexual sin/unchastity in marriage, right?). You’re supposed to be the leader of the family, and I’m supposed to be able to trust you.

I think women really need to raise their standards for men. Catholic/Christian men are starting to follow Muslim men. Muslim men have temporary marriages where they can have sex all they want before they get married permanently (with expectation that the permanent wife will just “deal with it and forget it”). I do no wrong rejecting you for marriage because of your sin.

Interesting. So now that I’ve proven that I can never be trustworthy enough to be the leader of a family, no matter what kind of prayer and spiritual development I work on or go through, what should I do with the rest of my life?

 

[Chevaleresse]

Interesting. So now that I’ve proven that I can never be trustworthy enough to be the leader of a family, no matter what kind of prayer and spiritual development I work on or go through, what should I do with the rest of my life?

Basically, I wouldn’t marry you.
I wouldn’t marry you.
I wouldn’t
I
I<< (first person singular subject personal reflexive pronoun)

Most Catholic women have given up on holding men to a high standard (“Boys will be boys”, right?). I haven’t. (It sort of reminds of industry-wide price fixing scandals. The consumers can do nothing but pay more.) So basically, I wouldn’t marry you, but someone else probably will (I mean, there are fewer men than women at church, right?).

Otherwise, keep doing what you’re doing.

 

[Havard]

Basically, I wouldn’t marry you.

In saying you couldn’t trust me, it’s implied that I’m not worthy of your trust. So why should I be worthy of any Catholic woman’s trust?

 

[Chevaleresse]

You, but in saying you couldn’t trust me, it’s implied that I’m not worthy of your trust.

Right.

So why should I be worthy of any Catholic woman’s trust?

Everybody has a different standard for trust. You did something that’s going to make it harder for some people to trust you. Potentially impossible (like me).

 

[Kelfa28]

Basically, I wouldn’t marry you. Your past sin does reflect what you are capable of, and what you are capable of starting again. Many people with those sins see them surface again (you’ve read the threads about sexual sin/unchastity in marriage, right?). You’re supposed to be the leader of the family, and I’m supposed to be able to trust you.

My husband is an outstanding leader in our family, a good Catholic, a good provider and a wonderful father.

He’s no angel either and had quite the past.
So did I, come to think of it.

However, if I decided to kick him to the curb the day I found out he had a former fiance he had been with for years and had cohabitated with…I would have missed out on a fantastic husband who developed a deep love and devotion to the faith.

Being too scrupulous about people’s past actually shows a lack of faith…especially if that person went to confession and received absolution or was baptized into the faith.

Everyone sins…full stop. No one is perfect.

If you were in my shoes you would have turned down a fabulous husband who knows right from wrong and realizes that mistakes can be forgiven and forgotten.

 

[Chevaleresse]

My husband is an outstanding leader in our family, a good Catholic, a good provider and a wonderful father.
He’s no angel either and had quite the past.
So did I, come to think of it.

Read my previous posts above if you want to know what my reply would be.

Being too scrupulous about people’s past actually shows a lack of faith…especially if that person went to confession and received absolution or was baptized into the faith.

No, it does not.

Everyone sins…full stop. No one is perfect.

If you found out there was a warrant for his arrest for some gruesome crime, would you say the same thing?

If you were in my shoes you would have turned down a fabulous husband

You bet.

and realizes that mistakes can be forgiven and forgotten.

Ummm, forgiven does not mean accepted, and you’ve clearly not forgotten.

 

[Havard]

Right.

Everybody has a different standard for trust. You did something that’s going to make it harder for some people to trust you. Potentially impossible (like me).

I don’t disagree that it doesn’t make me harder to trust initially, but I hope and want to believe that people who see who and what at I am now will know that I am worthy of their trust.

I do appreciate your honesty. And I appreciate your frustrations about what goes on between the young men and women of today. We are on the same side in this battle, and I truly regret that it is perhaps harder on you, and women in general, than it is on men. You should never have to settle, and I hope you find a man who makes you truly happy.

 

[Chevaleresse]

I do appreciate your honesty. And I appreciate your frustrations about what goes on between the young men and women of today. We are on the same side in this battle, and I truly regret that it is perhaps harder on you, and women in general, than it is on men. You should never have to settle, and I hope you find a man who makes you truly happy.

Thanks.

ETA: It’s hard on both sexes.

 

[Kelfa28]

Ummm, forgiven does not mean accepted, and you’ve clearly not forgotten.

Of course I’ve forgotten…it doesn’t sit in my head every waking moment of every day I wake up next to him.
Forgetting means I don’t see it as a problem. His past is no different then recalling what I made for dinner last Thursday. I can remember what I made for dinner but I really don’t care or see it as something relevant…same thing as remembering his past…it’s in my head but it’s not relevant.

I don’t look at his face and automatically think…“what is wrong with me? How can I trust someone so “untrustworthy” as him since he made a mistake in his past?”

No…I look at his face and see a man who loves me and would give me the world if he could because he loves and cares for me and has never done anything to betray my trust in the five years I’ve known him.

That is because I’ve spent time with him, learned who he was and is as a man and what he is capable of. I didn’t turn him down but I gave him a chance and it was the best decision I could have ever made.
God put the two of us together for a reason and we couldn’t be happier.

If I worried all day waiting for God to send me a husband who is “perfect and free from sin” I’d be a spinster…easily. I’d be aging and bitter and angry.

It kind of reminds me of the story of a man caught in a flood and asks God for help…everything and everyone up to the Coast Guard shows up to help but the man keeps insisting God will come to help. He drowns and goes to heaven and asks God…“Why didn’t you help me?”
God says “I sent you drift wood, a raft, a man in a row boat and then the Coast Guard…but you wouldn’t take advantage of any of it.”

 

[Kelfa28]

No, it does not.

Well…this isn’t something that I came up on my own…but by two, very knowledgable, priests who taught my RCIA class this past year. This is exactly what they explained to us when we learned about the sacrament of confession. If you cannot accept the absolution from a priest of someone’s sin…then you don’t trust the sacrament…fairly simple in my head.

If you found out there was a warrant for his arrest for some gruesome crime, would you say the same thing?

Irrelevant since that didn’t happen…and since you won’t describe what sins are acceptable and what aren’t when it comes to a relationship, I don’t wish to elaborate on what I would do.
Truth be told…I did date a man who was arrested at a young age for DUI. He was 18 and very immature.
He lost his license for a period of time and had to attend classes for awhile. He finished the program, got his license back and cut his drinking down substantially…only for special occasions and he absolutely refused to drink at all if we all went out…he’d be the designated every time.
He told me this, years after it happened, and it didn’t bother me one bit because I saw he had clearly changed and learned from his mistake.
It didn’t end up working out between the two of us…but that was because we weren’t right for each other…it had nothing to do with his past.

You bet.

That’s awesome…I enjoyed the benefits from overlooking something slight in his past.

 

[Chevaleresse]

If I worried all day waiting for God to send me a husband who is “perfect and free from sin” I’d be a spinster…easily. I’d be aging and bitter and angry.

Yes, I think we women really do have low standards. LOL. Why would you be bitter and angry though?

It kind of reminds me of the story of a man caught in a flood and asks God for help…everything and everyone up to the Coast Guard shows up to help but the man keeps insisting God will come to help. He drowns and goes to heaven and asks God…“Why didn’t you help me?”
God says “I sent you drift wood, a raft, a man in a row boat and then the Coast Guard…but you wouldn’t take advantage of any of it.”

Heard it before. Doesn’t really apply here. I don’t need any sort of “rescuing” from any man, thanks.

Well…this isn’t something that I came up on my own…but by two, very knowledgable, priests who taught my RCIA class this past year. This is exactly what they explained to us when we learned about the sacrament of confession. If you cannot accept the absolution from a priest of someone’s sin…then you don’t trust the sacrament…fairly simple in my head.

Who said I didn’t accept the absolution? Did you read my previous comments?

Irrelevant since that didn’t happen…

No kidding? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilemma? en.wiktionary.org/wiki/example?

and since you won’t describe what sins are acceptable and what aren’t when it comes to a relationship, I don’t wish to elaborate on what I would do.

You’d reject him.

That’s awesome…I enjoyed the benefits from overlooking something slight in his past.

I don’t remember mortal sin being “slight”.

 

[Chevaleresse]

That’s awesome…I enjoyed the benefits from overlooking something slight in his past.

I also forgot to mention the fact that you took a risk. There are lots of threads on this board and others about husbands going back to sinful practices.