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jinglebelle
Guest
And every heterosexual catholic family with 2.4 offspring are parfait
Student at Catholic elementary school has his parent's are two gay fathers
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1990Domer
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pianistclare
Guest
Oh, I think that ship has sailed.
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Maximilan_Kolbe
Guest
If they are overtly promoting a disordered, unhealthy relationship and anything but that, they are not.
When it comes to overt flaunting of one sins, why is a qualification always necessary? The fact is flawed hetersoecual families are still led the way God intended in terms of the gender of the spouses. They are typically actually married.
Neither is ever true of homosexual families, and when it comes to our children, I am not going to worry about the argument of “fairness” when it comes to their sanctity. It’s the same tired argument about denying communion to proudly over homosexual couples and the fact that “well, what about everyone else’s sins.” Well I fully expect if I ever approach the communion rail whilst having an abortion or looking at pornography on my Ipad that I should be summarily denied, too.
There is no lobby promoting spousal abuse as healthy to our children. There isn’t a strong push to promote infidelity among spouses as healthy. There is a very strong push to teach children that marriage can be whatever we want it to be, and that yes, Heather can have two mommies.
When you start seeing a push for the two former examples to be legitimized to our children, get back to me.
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UbiCaritas
Guest
Here’s the thing.
Provided that the school is doing due diligence by not supporting the notion that two men can get married, and provided that they make it perfectly clear that immoral behavior per Church teaching won’t be tolerated at school functions, period, then what’s the harm of letting this kid be surrounded by loving peers in a safe environment?
I’m reminded of something that happened in a town I lived in years ago. The local abortionist thought it a cute idea to send his kids to the local Catholic high school. Various parents complained vociferously enough that the kids were removed from school and not allowed to return solely because of their dad’s behavior.
These were the same parents who picketed the abortionist’s family home to never let either the kids or the neighbors forget for a second that Your Daddy Is A Murderer.
True though that was, it was hardly a method that was going to win their souls for Christ. Ditto expelling them from a school for no reason pertaining to their own behavior.
Now, I’d be all in favor of having the school teach orthodox Catholic teaching day-in and day-out, which would probably take care of all sorts of problems right there. Instead, they took the coward’s way out: “We won’t have pro-life activities on our campus, or give our kids a solid grounding in pro-life apologetics, but we will keep them from having contact with those EVIL children because some very tiresome people threw a fit.” And mind, the kids themselves did nothing wrong. There’s a nice, lasting message to them! “No matter what you personally do, we’ll despise and shun you for who your parents are.” Ugh.
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pianistclare
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yup.
Children are not culpable for their parents’ sins.
And most children have no clue who is gay or whose mom is having an affair unless the ADULTS crow about it.
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EasterJoy
Guest
What is your point, exactly?
You may not realize it, but your comment comes off as saying that since no marriage is perfect it naturally follows that the work of promoting a true understanding of marriage has no importance whatsoever.
Please tell me you are not saying that, because that is too cynical. If that is the attitude, after all, why have Catholic schools? Since obviously all sin, why teach moral law at all? What is sin, if all sin, each according to his own weakness, such that no one cares to know or teach the difference between sin and virtue?
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1990Domer
Guest
I pray for the family to seek the way of God. Our hope is always to see Heaven.
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1990Domer
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Can we all pray for the genuine family? This was the whole basis of The World Meeting of Families. The Devil desires to destroy what is weakest, and that now is the family.
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UbiCaritas
Guest
But how is that kid going to seek the way of God if Catholics shun him for the sins of his whatever-you’d-call-'ems? (The two guys claiming to be his dad, who, despite the dysfunction, he probably loves very much?)
Understand that I’m not suggesting for a second that the kids at the school be taught that that is a marriage, or that the parents be given communion at school Masses, or anything except that the right thing to do is treat other people with kindness and respect.
The closest equivalent to this that I can think of is single-parent families in the '40s and '50s. Dad went to parochial school back then. There were two kids whose parents were divorced who went there. The other kids all refused to play with them (or were told not to by their parents) because their parents were divorced, which Everyone Knew (back then) was Always Unacceptable. Again, never mind that while the parents may or may not have behaved badly (I haven’t a clue what led to the divorces), the kids were the innocent parties and should have been treated as such. Instead, they had no friends or support systems during what must have been a terribly sad and frightening time in their lives. How is that upholding the institution of marriage? Similarly, how is shunning and generally treating badly the child of two homosexuals leading anyone to God or upholding the institution of marriage?
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Maximilan_Kolbe
Guest
But you say shunning as though the goal is to exclude the child because he has two dads. (we’ll call them Greg Evigan and Paul Reiser, for the purposes of this topic), when that isn’t it at all. The goal is to protect impressionable young children who have enough pressure from outside the school and faith working against them; now the school and Church can no longer be a sanctuary either?
I suppose it depends I suppose on how infused Greg and Paul are into the school’s culture, or if it just a tidbit someone passed on which is not overtly shared. If the school deems that children with two homosexual parents cannot enroll due to scandal or confusion among their charges, I support them in that. There will always be casualties in the children involved, which is horrible, but that is the result of Greg and Paul’s selfishness, not the school’s actions.
The school has to weigh the needs of the many (apparently, they outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one… Spockkkk) in these cases, and has more than just this child to concern themselves with.
There is never a “good” solution when solving horrific problems. There is generally a “least damaging” solution.
It does seem to me in this case, it could have been avoided during admissions when personal information gets provided.
Did no one notice this:
*
Father’s Name: Greg
Mother’s Name: Paul*
on the enrollment form?
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MomaMary8
Guest
I do wonder if perhaps the mother has enrolled her child and the father has abandoned his family for his male friend? That could be the case? Until we have more information it’s only speculation. But, if it is the case, the mother and child will need lots of support from the Church.
Where is this poor child’s mother?
Where is this poor child’s mother?
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UbiCaritas
Guest
Oh, believe me, I think the school should be perfectly forthright with Paul and Greg when they sign Junior up. “Junior seems like a good kid and an excellent student, and we’d love to have him at out school. However, we need for you to be aware of a few things before we enroll him. Brief outline of Church teaching regarding homosexuality. PDA will not be tolerated at school events from you, just as they aren’t from any couple who isn’t married in the eyes of the Church. Understand that we will be teaching the kids about the complementarity of the sexes and that marriage is between one man and one woman. Here’s a form for you to sign, stating that you understand this and agree to Junior being instructed in the truths of the Catholic faith.”
Paul and Greg probably won’t enroll Junior. If they do, then they’ve been duly warned, they can’t sue (thanks, legal form!), and Junior will be surrounded by people who care about him and will teach him the Catholic faith. If not, at least both sides have been quite honest with each other.
I can tell you that in the short time I was in parochial school, I hadn’t the faintest idea whose parents were doing what unless Mom or Dad told me.
ETA: Besides, wasn’t the whole point of “The Search for Spock” that even though it’s illogical, the many will undertake to care for the needs of the few? Or the one?
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nodito
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Our local Catholic school requires that all parents of potential students sign a form saying that they understand that the school teaches Catholic morals and values regarding marriage and sexuality. They don’t discriminate against children who’s parents are in irregular or non-marriage situations, but I like knowing that everyone is on the same page about what will be taught in the classroom.
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UbiCaritas
Guest
Very sensible. I detest the watering-down of Church teachings to avoid uncomfortable situations, but I loathe “gotcha” tactics nearly as much.
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EasterJoy
Guest
If child’s guardians don’t make any public point of this, if they refer to each other by their first names and never show any outward indication that they have a sexual relationship or consider each other to be sexual partners, there is no problem. A child can live with two men, and people can just mind their own business about it.
If some parent or parents makes it a point to defy some major tenet of Church teaching, the situation becomes different. In that case, the school has to sit down with the parents and say, "When we become aware that there are parents who publicly oppose a major teaching of the Church, we feel we owe the parents an explanatory meeting concerning our position on that, so thank you for coming in.
"Your child is welcome here and you are welcome here, and we will not tolerate any personal attacks on you. We also do not allow anyone to badger anyone else about whether others personally accept Church teaching. If you have problems with that, please let us know, so we can meet with those parties to clarify our policies.
"Having said that, you have to realize that we are going to continue teach the true meaning of marriage and human sexuality. We are not going to make a bigger deal of it than some other part of the Catechism, but we are also not going to soft pedal it. We are not in the business of judging what appear to be objective violations of moral law, that is not our place, but if you oppose our teaching mission in any way, that will not be tolerated. The truth will be taught as the truth here, not as an opinion. What the Church teaches is true, period, and we are not going to pretend there is any question about that. There will not be any negotiation on that point. Do you have any questions? Is this acceptable to you?
"OK. In that case, we will thank you to quit referring to each other as husbands. The Church teaches that it is impossible for two men to marry each other. Not just illegal or illicit, but impossible. We won’t stop anyone who corrects you on Church teaching when you are the ones bringing up an errant understanding, but we would rather avoid having you in the middle of that kind of a debate on moral law in the first place.
“In any event, you are not to teach anything different than what the Church teaches in the context of any school or parish event. If you do, you will need to find a school that has a teaching mission you can at least tolerate in public. That is our policy, and it applies to all areas of Church teaching.”
This has to be the policy on any major matter of Church teaching, not just those concerning sexuality, or the school will stand fairly charged of hypocrisy.
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UbiCaritas
Guest
Exactly!
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EasterJoy
Guest
This. The policy needs to be clear before the first tuition check is signed. I would not limit the listing to marriage and sexuality, though. If someone says they get their tuition money by some means that is morally forbidden or whatever, it should not be treated differently than this.
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UbiCaritas
Guest
The quote I gave was one of several leading from her initial post saying that her archdiocese would “never allow” this child to attend a school in it. She implied (and 1990Domer, please correct me if I misunderstand!) that for a child of two homosexual parents to attend a Catholic school wouldn’t be seeking God’s will. So I asked how, if the child is effectively banned from Catholic society, is he supposed to grow up to seek God’s will?
If my kid attended this school, I’d be fine with her being friends with this child. I wouldn’t let her go over to his house, but I would invite him to mine. I’d do the same thing if his dad had left his mom for a live-in girlfriend. If the parents didn’t like that, that’s on them. I agree that they’re at fault here, but I also think that every effort ought to be made to improve the emotional and spiritual well-being of the child, and that having him ignored by people of good will won’t help with that in the least.
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1990Domer
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Our Archbishop said it promotes scandal, and he is our spiritual Shepard. I am in full agreement. Further, I highly doubt in today’s society that a Catholic school can do “due diligence.” When that child attends class Mass and says the Nicene Creed, does that child fully embrace that? I truly feel for the child. He/she needs our prayers.
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