Student at Catholic elementary school has his parent's are two gay fathers

[PhiloMed]

For some of us, you need to respect it is very real and very damaging. Take my word on it–my husband is tormented because he does not know the state of his parents’ soul.

Honestly, when I hear this type of personal anguish here on CAF I feel sympathy for those with such high levels of anxiety but it strikes me as more of a psychiatric problem than a religious one.

IOW, preventing children of parents in “scandalous” relationships from socializing with our kids is not going to solve it and may even perpetuate it.

 

[1990Domer]

Well, while I disagree with his actions, I’ll give him that he’s certainly consistent.

Though one does wonder how it’s terribly charitable to tell a mom in a crisis pregnancy “Don’t have an abortion, but your child will never get a Catholic education unless you get married.” Or, for that matter, as did happen to one of my parochial school classmates, “Sally, I’m sorry your dad walked out on you and your mom. I know your life has been turned completely upside down, and you’re angry and hurting. However, we’re going to add to this by expelling you because your dad is acting like a jerk.”

I have no idea at all why her dad left; my parents, quite rightly, only told me that Mr. Smith wasn’t living with Mrs. Smith and Sally anymore, and that I should be extra kind to Sally because she was probably very sad about this. Sally, of course, stayed in the school, and was surrounded by her friends and teachers while she dealt with the fallout from Daddy leaving.

The sacrament of Confession absolves you of those sin to be in the grace of our Lord. Have you forgotten that? Now, if the person does not take advantage of this beautiful sacrament and says, essentially, screw the Chruch’s views, that is an altogether different story.

 

[UbiCaritas]

The sacrament of Confession absolves you of those sin to be in the grace of our Lord. Have you forgotten that? Now, if the person does not take advantage of this beautiful sacrament and says, essentially, screw the Chruch’s views, that is an altogether different story.

No, haven’t forgotten at all about Confession. My point is that in at least one of those cases, it seems that the archdiocese has.

In the case of the single mom in a crisis pregnancy who decided not to abort, she could go to confession–but apparently the archdiocese still thinks that the fact that she’s a single mom is still scandalous, so no Catholic school for Junior.

In the case of the married-in-the-Church couple (at least, so I assume) with a child in Catholic school and Dad decides to walk out on them, I do not understand how it’s scandalous to not punish the student because her father decided to leave. Like I said, essentially the student’s being told “Sorry your dad left, but now that your family’s been turned upside down, we can’t have you around. Bye!”

I also must say that while I don’t think it would cause* me* to leave the Church, She being rather more than Her members, if a woman was abandoned by her husband and, while scrambling to pick up the pieces of her life and figure out what’s best for her kid, was told at the same time that she needed to further shake up her kid’s life by putting her in another school because Catholic schools don’t want children in them who’ve been abandoned by their fathers…well, I can quite see why she’d be tempted to leave the Faith and find a church that would support her during a terrible crisis.

 

[pianistclare]

With all Christian charity, I am confused and don’t know how these conclusions are being drawn.

Where are people here advocating for a child of a single mother or a child abandoned by their father to be banished from a Catholic school? I don’t know of a school that does this, or of anyone that advocates it so it seems like a sideline argument to me but perhaps I just don’t understand.

1990Domer I believe was discussing that a family had to sign a paper that they would follow the teachings of the church. A single mom and a broken family could all sign this document! Two men living together as a married couple cannot. A single mom who is doing her best and a broken family all have the ability to be good Catholics, a gay couple living together does not maybe that is the confusion here? We are all sinners, that is a fact but living in a lifestyle such as the gay life openly or living in polygamy openly makes it clear you have no intention to be Catholic. Just if a man were openly cheating on his wife and flaunting his mistress in public when sins are all out there for little eyes to see it can cause scandal, further complicating his already sinful state of adultery.

Unless said couple were celibate.
Which is the whole point.
people ASSUME a whole lot.
And children are denied access to that catechism class.

 

[PhiloMed]

I am not sure if that was a direct insult, and that you meant to insinuate my children were all “innocent snowflakes” or if you were trying to be funny. Sometimes it’s hard to say so I will assume you were trying to have a good debate and respond.

I have not seen anywhere in the thread where people would encourage their own children to be hateful and shun such a child. That confuses me, I wouldn’t let my child go to their home to play but wouldn’t encourage my child to be cruel or shun the child so I don’t know how that conclusion is being drawn?

The way you feel is common from what I have experienced. Many people believe we need to expose our children to everything. From the way you were raised I believe your thinking makes total sense, since your parents were in an invalid marriage you feel personal about this. It is good that you want to be a good parent! I think we just have a different.

No it was not directed at anyone (see my follow up post). Just a general observation.

And yes it is personal and even the language used is hurtful. For example, you said my parents were in an invalid marriage. That’s hurtful. They were married for 25 years and raised me. But my dad is dead now so I guess my mother’s soul is a-ok! Yay! whew. Good thing he up and died so she can go to confession and make it right. It’s one thing to intellectually know the teaching, it’s another to then be hurt by it.

In some ways I feel like I move further and further from the church when I read posts on CAF.

 

[PhiloMed]

I’ll also add that there is no family without sin, except for the Holy Family. So if one family’s life is scandalous (and I hate that word it makes me think of some uptight spinster circa 1940) to you then you haven’t even begun to scratch the surface of every other family and the less visible sins.

Should we let our snowflakes play with Johnny next door? He’s an only child and I bet his parents used contraception! Do we check the marriage certificates of everyone to be sure they were validly married in the Church?

Fabulous example. In my parish there was a wonderful family with three children. The dad was not the biological father of the oldest child but had been in her life since she was a toddler and was the only father she knew. Mom taught CCD practically since the beginning of time and had been the DRE for some time too. Very active in the parish and the community. Loved by all.

Sadly, the mother developed cancer and died when the kids were very young. It was devastating. It was only upon her death that anyone found out the couple had never been married. At all. Imagine that.

I’m not saying that is right, or condoned, or anything like that. I’m just saying you don’t know. You can never really know. Singling out one type of sin over another is simply hypocritical.

 

[UbiCaritas]

With all Christian charity, I am confused and don’t know how these conclusions are being drawn.

Where are people here advocating for a child of a single mother or a child abandoned by their father to be banished from a Catholic school? I don’t know of a school that does this, or of anyone that advocates it so it seems like a sideline argument to me but perhaps I just don’t understand.

1990Domer I believe was discussing that a family had to sign a paper that they would follow the teachings of the church. A single mom and a broken family could all sign this document! Two men living together as a married couple cannot. A single mom who is doing her best and a broken family all have the ability to be good Catholics, a gay couple living together does not maybe that is the confusion here? We are all sinners, that is a fact but living in a lifestyle such as the gay life openly or living in polygamy openly makes it clear you have no intention to be Catholic. Just if a man were openly cheating on his wife and flaunting his mistress in public when sins are all out there for little eyes to see it can cause scandal, further complicating his already sinful state of adultery.

I asked 1990Domer if her archdiocese, in addition to not allowing children of homosexual couples into its schools on the grounds that that would cause scandal, also had the same policy for children of single parents, children of families in which one parents had walked out on the family, divorced parents, etc. She said it did.

I offered two examples in which I thought this was a particularly bad policy, that of a single mom, especially one who’d had a crisis pregnancy, and that of a mom whose husband had left her and her child.

I drew the reasonable conclusion that if children of single or divorced parents weren’t allowed in these schools, then neither would children of a parent who walked out on the marriage, and said why I thought that would be harmful in particular to a kid who was already established at a school when Dad decided not to act like a husband and father anymore, as happened to a childhood friend of mine. (And, as I said, in her case the school of course didn’t expel her!)

I agree with your overall point, which is that scandalous behavior should be avoided in front of kids, and suggested that a school should sit down with the parents in such a situation (divorced, cheating, a homosexual “marriage,” what-have-you) and explain that behavior not in keeping with Catholic standards won’t be tolerated at school functions. EasterJoy made the very good point (which I hadn’t thought of until then) that this shouldn’t be restricted to public sexual sin, but should encompass public sin, period. If it’s generally known that Daddy is a mafia hit man (extreme example, but there you have it), then no, the school shouldn’t be taking blood money as tuition. Etc.

 

[PhiloMed]

I asked 1990Domer if her archdiocese, in addition to not allowing children of homosexual couples into its schools on the grounds that that would cause scandal, also had the same policy for children of single parents, children of families in which one parents had walked out on the family, divorced parents, etc. She said it did.

I offered two examples in which I thought this was a particularly bad policy, that of a single mom, especially one who’d had a crisis pregnancy, and that of a mom whose husband had left her and her child.

I drew the reasonable conclusion that if children of single or divorced parents weren’t allowed in these schools, then neither would children of a parent who walked out on the marriage, and said why I thought that would be harmful in particular to a kid who was already established at a school when Dad decided not to act like a husband and father anymore, as happened to a childhood friend of mine. (And, as I said, in her case the school of course didn’t expel her!)

I agree with your overall point, which is that scandalous behavior should be avoided in front of kids, and suggested that a school should sit down with the parents in such a situation (divorced, cheating, a homosexual “marriage,” what-have-you) and explain that behavior not in keeping with Catholic standards won’t be tolerated at school functions. EasterJoy made the very good point (which I hadn’t thought of until then) that this shouldn’t be restricted to public sexual sin, but should encompass public sin, period. If it’s generally known that Daddy is a mafia hit man (extreme example, but there you have it), then no, the school shouldn’t be taking blood money as tuition. Etc.

I’m from Sopranos territory. That mafia hit man example isn’t that far off.

Those are some of the most revered families in the diocese. They’re the biggest donors. Very successful in their “trucking” businesses.

 

[UbiCaritas]

I’m from Sopranos territory. That mafia hit man example isn’t that far off.

Those are some of the most revered families in the diocese. They’re the biggest donors. Very successful in their “trucking” businesses.

Lovely. (She says in a voice dripping with sarcasm.)

sigh

 

[pianistclare]

Lovely. (She says in a voice dripping with sarcasm.)

sigh

Yeah, but you know what? That’s what happens. (I totally get what you’re saying…btw )

But seriously.:
I don’t know how many times I’ve had to deal with some very argumentative and unhelpful parishioners…"but they’re big givers, or whatever…we leave them alone". Don’t upset them.

I think that’s what I’m reacting to. People think that the churches and the schools are a haven for Saints. An insurance policy of sorts against secularism.
It’s not that way. Anywhere. People can say "Not at MY school: all they want. I’ll bet they just aren’t aware.

It’s just not real life.
In real life some poor kid has 2 moms. What? We just abandon them? We’re nicer to our pets.

I think this thread has run it’s course.
I see both sides, but I also think people have their heads in the sand sometimes.
I have to deal with people as they present themselves, and encourage people to fall in love with Christ. At some point we all have to model Christlike behavior.
What would the Gospels sound like if Christ never said “repent”? Or He never spoke to or ate with sinners?
He didn’t CONDONE anything evil. Neither does the Church and her schools.
but they are populated with people. People in need of mercy and yes, correction.

 

[EasterJoy]

Honestly, when I hear this type of personal anguish here on CAF I feel sympathy for those with such high levels of anxiety but it strikes me as more of a psychiatric problem than a religious one.

IOW, preventing children of parents in “scandalous” relationships from socializing with our kids is not going to solve it and may even perpetuate it.

Is it a “psychiatric problem” to worry about parents who show signs of cancer or heart disease but refuse to see a physician? Why is the state of your parents’ souls a different matter?

When the parents of a child at school are exposing their child to objectively illicit use of mind-altering substances and their child comes to school teaching their friends that using psycho-active drugs or getting drunk on weekends is just a fine hobby, do you put the word “scandalous” in quotes when you talk about the concerns raised by the other parents? Why are other objectively damaging life choices different than the choice of living with your homosexual lover and pretending that homosexuality and heterosexuality are the same thing?

I actually think that the example of the child of an alcoholic or a drug addict is not a bad one. We don’t judge why someone is alcoholic or why they are addicted. We do not know if we would not be addicts, in their shoes, and we do not know what circumstances mitigates their culpability for what they choose to do. We don’t keep their child out of school because the parent is an alcoholic. We do not, however, tolerate them showing up at school drunk and we do not tolerate them telling children that the Church is too uptight when it says it is morally forbidden to get drunk and a mortal sin to drink and drive. If the parent were an unrepentant drug dealer who was pedaling the falsehood that drugs are OK, we would eventually be forced to ask the family to leave the school, as sad as that would be.

**CCC 2291 ***The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law. *

 

[1990Domer]

Is it a “psychiatric problem” to worry about parents who show signs of cancer or heart disease but refuse to see a physician? Why is the state of your parents’ souls a different matter?

When the parents of a child at school are exposing their child to objectively illicit use of mind-altering substances and their child comes to school teaching their friends that using psycho-active drugs or getting drunk on weekends is just a fine hobby, do you put the word “scandalous” in quotes when you talk about the concerns raised by the other parents? Why are other objectively damaging life choices different than the choice of living with your homosexual lover and pretending that homosexuality and heterosexuality are the same thing?

I actually think that the example of the child of an alcoholic or a drug addict is not a bad one. We don’t judge why someone is alcoholic or why they are addicted. We do not know if we would not be addicts, in their shoes, and we do not know what circumstances mitigates their culpability for what they choose to do. We don’t keep their child out of school because the parent is an alcoholic. We do not, however, tolerate them showing up at school drunk and we do not tolerate them telling children that the Church is too uptight when it says it is morally forbidden to get drunk and a mortal sin to drink and drive. If the parent were an unrepentant drug dealer who was pedaling the falsehood that drugs are OK, we would eventually be forced to ask the family to leave the school, as sad as that would be.

**CCC 2291 ***The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law. *

Thank you EasterJoy. My kid doesn’t even attend Catholic school due to severe bullying. But, we had to sign an oath that we would obey the chatechism of the RCC before we made our decision. We are hardly The Sopranos. Besides, we’re Polish and I’m insulted.

Further, this has nothing to do with accepting the innocent child. It has everything to do with other adults seeing the school not following RCC doctrine in a very open way! Sure, other scandal takes place, but it is not “in your face” as this one is. Can’t you see the difference?

 

[PhiloMed]

Thank you EasterJoy. My kid doesn’t even attend Catholic school due to severe bullying. But, we had to sign an oath that we would obey the chatechism of the RCC before we made our decision. We are hardly The Sopranos. Besides, we’re Polish and I’m insulted.

Further, this has nothing to do with accepting the innocent child. It has everything to do with other adults seeing the school not following RCC doctrine in a very open way! Sure, other scandal takes place, but it is not “in your face” as this one is. Can’t you see the difference?

No. No I don’t.

And I don’t see “scandal”. I see opportunity for education and a chance to be charitable.

Then again, it takes an awful lot to get my panties in a bunch.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thank you EasterJoy. My kid doesn’t even attend Catholic school due to severe bullying. But, we had to sign an oath that we would obey the chatechism of the RCC before we made our decision. We are hardly The Sopranos. Besides, we’re Polish and I’m insulted.

Further, this has nothing to do with accepting the innocent child. It has everything to do with other adults seeing the school not following RCC doctrine in a very open way! Sure, other scandal takes place, but it is not “in your face” as this one is. Can’t you see the difference?

How is a school who accepts students whose parents are living in objective sin “not following RCC doctrine in a very open way”? Are the admitted children of prostitutes not to get a Catholic education?

I totally do not understand the reference to your family background. What does being from a Polish family have to do with this discussion? What, some policy can be insulting for Poles but somehow more tolerable for mere Italians, Germans, Mexicans, or the Irish? Which ethnic groups in the Universal Church deserve to be treated with some special deference and which ones don’t? Please, enlighten us on that?

 

[PhiloMed]

We are hardly The Sopranos. Besides, we’re Polish and I’m insulted.

I’m Polish and I approve of my messages.

 

[1990Domer]

How is a school who accepts students whose parents are living in objective sin “not following RCC doctrine in a very open way”? Are the admitted children of prostitutes not to get a Catholic education?

I totally do not understand the reference to your family background. What does being from a Polish family have to do with this discussion? What, some policy can be insulting for Poles but somehow more tolerable for mere Italians, Germans, Mexicans, or the Irish? Which ethnic groups in the Universal Church deserve to be treated with some special deference and which ones don’t? Please, enlighten us on that?

I was offended by the Soprano reference…plain and clear…while led me to think of a mafia reference. We are a non-violent people. Never saw the show, but I am sure it was quite violent.

 

[1990Domer]

I’m Polish and I approve of my messages.

Then we have to agree to disagree. My pastor preaches about scandal constantly, so it is in the forefront of my mind.

 

[1990Domer]

How is a school who accepts students whose parents are living in objective sin “not following RCC doctrine in a very open way”? Are the admitted children of prostitutes not to get a Catholic education?

I totally do not understand the reference to your family background. What does being from a Polish family have to do with this discussion? What, some policy can be insulting for Poles but somehow more tolerable for mere Italians, Germans, Mexicans, or the Irish? Which ethnic groups in the Universal Church deserve to be treated with some special deference and which ones don’t? Please, enlighten us on that?

I feel the Polish people stick the cathechism much more firmly. This is from my experience of having a priest and current bishop in the family.

 

[EasterJoy]

I feel the Polish people stick the cathechism much more firmly. This is from my experience of having a priest and current bishop in the family.

Results do vary. Expecting to be treated the same as everyone else regardless of your ethnic background is a better policy.

 

[PhiloMed]

I was offended by the Soprano reference…plain and clear…while led me to think of a mafia reference. We are a non-violent people. Never saw the show, but I am sure it was quite violent.

That makes 0% sense. I was backing up Ubi’s hypothetical about there being really really bad people in parishes and confirming that it isn’t a hypothetical. It’s a reality where I’m from. It wasn’t even in reference to you.