Student at Catholic elementary school has his parent's are two gay fathers

[PhiloMed]

I feel the Polish people stick the cathechism much more firmly. This is from my experience of having a priest and current bishop in the family.

Clearly, extrapolating from one family’s experience is a great way to generalize.

In my Polish family we have 0 priests. 0 bishops. 0 nuns though my mom left the convent and married someone who had been married twice before. Lots of people who never attend church, use contraception, used fertility treatments to have their children.

Didn’t you mention your BIL had a “husband”?

Just to bring this thread full circle before it goes totally off the rails…

To the OP if you’re still reading. What do you do? You treat this child and those with whom he lives with respect. They deserve that much as human beings. If you don’t want to give a mixed message to your child then explain to him/her (if age appropriate) what our beliefs are but that we always show love and respect.

If you’re not comfortable sending your child to their home (and this is a personal choice) and your child is friends with this child then keep play dates at your house. This may be a moot point of your kids never become friends, which may be for a thousand reasons unrelated to the parents.

How they live is none of your business as how you live is none of theirs.

 

[PhiloMed]

Please accept my sincere apologies for hurting your feelings. To be clear, when I wrote “invalid marriage” I didn’t mean that your parents didn’t love one another, weren’t kind people and were not dedicated to each other. I was referencing technically to what the Catholic church deems an invalid marriage sorry I wasn’t clear. I based that on your previous post where you said your mother was a former nun and your father was twice-divorced without seeking annulment and they were married on a mountaintop.

I will bow out of the discussion since you wrote you felt like you move further from the Catholic church when you read posts. I don’t want to be a part of that, again I am sorry for any feelings I may have hurt. We have differences in parenting philosophies but I meant no personal attack on your family. God bless.

I know you didn’t mean to be hurtful, but this is exactly what we are getting at in this thread.

Of course their marriage was invalid and it also wasn’t sacramental, but should I not have been allowed to attend Catholic school because of that? Should classmates not have been allowed to come to my home because of that? Should the school refer to my parents as the cohabitating boyfriend and girlfriend? Of course not, it would have been disrespectful at the very least.

I never understood why my mother didn’t go to communion. Then one day she started to. I have no idea why or what happened. I never asked. It must have been very difficult for her personally and she certainly wouldn’t need some old church lady to question her devotion, the state of her soul or the validity of her marriage. If I had been barred from the schools or had fellow “Catholics” talking about us like that you bet I wouldn’t be a part of the church now. And what would that have accomplished? Would my classmates been spared some “scandal” when they found out about my parents?

I know very well what the church teaches. So do many others. Then your well-meaning neighbor calls your marriage invalid, your life disordered, your choices scandalous…and there you go. Now it went from being your personal struggle to someone else’s judgement against you as a person. It’s one thing for Christ to say something is sinful, it’s another when Sally Busybody decides that your kid shouldn’t be at the school because your life is “intrinsically disordered” or “gravely evil”.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

I know you didn’t mean to be hurtful, but this is exactly what we are getting at in this thread.

I know very well what the church teaches. So do many others. Then your well-meaning neighbor calls your marriage invalid, your life disordered, your choices scandalous…and there you go. Now it went from being your personal struggle to someone else’s judgement against you as a person. It’s one thing for Christ to say something is sinful, it’s another when Sally Busybody decides that your kid shouldn’t be at the school because your life is “intrinsically disordered” or “gravely evil”.

Actually, what “Sally Busybody”, who I would in this call “Sally ConcernedMom”, is saying is “what you are intentionally or unintentionally publically promoting as normal is not and is a threat to my children’s souls, and that is something worth dying over.” No one has approached this from any angle other than the welfare of all the children; the only mention of that being busybody-like was by you, but you can label it however you want, and I’ll continue to give my child’s well-being primacy in these discussions over any names being attached to me.

Clearly, extrapolating from one family’s experience is a great way to generalize.

In my Polish family we have 0 priests. 0 bishops. 0 nuns though my mom left the convent and married someone who had been married twice before. Lots of people who never attend church, use contraception, used fertility treatments to have their children.

Didn’t you mention your BIL had a “husband”?

Just to bring this thread full circle before it goes totally off the rails…

To the OP if you’re still reading. What do you do? You treat this child and those with whom he lives with respect. They deserve that much as human beings. If you don’t want to give a mixed message to your child then explain to him/her (if age appropriate) what our beliefs are but that we always show love and respect.

If you’re not comfortable sending your child to their home (and this is a personal choice) and your child is friends with this child then keep play dates at your house. This may be a moot point of your kids never become friends, which may be for a thousand reasons unrelated to the parents.

How they live is none of your business as how you live is none of theirs.

And frankly, since the child of two dads is already enrolled, you are correct since what else can you do? Teach the child what is right and wrong, and teach him to show love to his peers. Whether or not you promote a friendship their or playdates is up to the parents - I would not.

The discussion actually surrounded the school’s approach more than the parents, since the ball is in their court at this point. They may be well aware and not care, may be well aware and made the teachings of the Church known to the two men in an unabashed way, or may still somehow be unaware.

In terms of the school, it appears there are three camps overall:

1. The situation is in fact a big deal in a Catholic environment, but the rights of the child to a loving Catholic environment and our need to promote that as Catholics outweighs the need to remove any scandalous influence from the school.
2. The situation is a big deal in a Catholic environment, but the rights of the other children to not have an unintended confusing or mixed-message conveyed should be the priority.
3. It isn’t a big deal and is not scandalous, as it is the parents responsibility to expose their child to that which they disagree with and teach them accordingly what we believe.

I would note that the comparisons to various individuals private sins seem to ring flat, though. Thhis is no different than when an active homosexual teacher outs themselves publically on Facebook or the like. We hear cries of “well, what other sins do the other teachers have we should consider?” Well when those teachers publically advertise their sins, we can address those as well. But that usually isn’t the case, and with the push for homosexual normalization at the forefront of secular society’s goals right now, it is disingenuous to cite examples of mafioso or prostitutes as similar examples. When there is a large mafia or street-walker lobby pushing their agenda in schools, we can compare the two and treat it with the same dire urgency as we do the push to normalize homosexual relations to our most impressionable minds.

 

[PhiloMed]

Actually, what “Sally Busybody”, who I would in this call “Sally ConcernedMom”, is saying is “what you are intentionally or unintentionally publically promoting as normal is not and is a threat to my children’s souls, and that is something worth dying over.” No one has approached this from any angle other than the welfare of all the children; the only mention of that being busybody-like was by you, but you can label it however you want, and I’ll continue to give my child’s well-being primacy in these discussions over any names being attached to me.

And frankly, since the child of two dads is already enrolled, you are correct since what else can you do? Teach the child what is right and wrong, and teach him to show love to his peers. Whether or not you promote a friendship their or playdates is up to the parents - I would not.

The discussion actually surrounded the school’s approach more than the parents, since the ball is in their court at this point. They may be well aware and not care, may be well aware and made the teachings of the Church known to the two men in an unabashed way, or may still somehow be unaware.

In terms of the school, it appears there are three camps overall:

1. The situation is in fact a big deal in a Catholic environment, but the rights of the child to a loving Catholic environment and our need to promote that as Catholics outweighs the need to remove any scandalous influence from the school.
2. The situation is a big deal in a Catholic environment, but the rights of the other children to not have an unintended confusing or mixed-message conveyed should be the priority.
3. It isn’t a big deal and is not scandalous, as it is the parents responsibility to expose their child to that which they disagree with and teach them accordingly what we believe.

I would note that the comparisons to various individuals private sins seem to ring flat, though. Thhis is no different than when an active homosexual teacher outs themselves publically on Facebook or the like. We hear cries of “well, what other sins do the other teachers have we should consider?” Well when those teachers publically advertise their sins, we can address those as well. But that usually isn’t the case, and with the push for homosexual normalization at the forefront of secular society’s goals right now, it is disingenuous to cite examples of mafioso or prostitutes as similar examples. When there is a large mafia or street-walker lobby pushing their agenda in schools, we can compare the two and treat it with the same dire urgency as we do the push to normalize homosexual relations to our most impressionable minds.

See, to me, it does not ring flat. In fact it is the entire crux of the issue.

Before I determine another’s life to be sinful I need to remove the telephone pole in my own eye and everyone else I have deemed acceptable and sin-free enough for myself and my children to associate with.

Perhaps I come at this from a different angle since I was the child in this scenario, but with heterosexual (though equally “unmarried”) parents. Sure am glad my friends parents didn’t feel this way. Life would have been very difficult and I don’t think I would have much respect for faith at this point in my life.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

See, to me, it does not ring flat. In fact it is the entire crux of the issue.

Before I determine another’s life to be sinful I need to remove the telephone pole in my own eye and everyone else I have deemed acceptable and sin-free enough for myself and my children to associate with.

Perhaps I come at this from a different angle since I was the child in this scenario, but with heterosexual (though equally “unmarried”) parents. Sure am glad my friends parents didn’t feel this way. Life would have been very difficult and I don’t think I would have much respect for faith at this point in my life.

I’d say the glaring difference is no child would look at your loving parents and see anything amiss. I doubt they promoted their personal details to children any more than you or I promote ours.

It becomes impossible to hide something as public as homosexual relationships and the stewardship of children. That is the key difference. Don’t personalize it and try to remove yourself from the equation, because the situations are not overtly analogous. My Dad wasn’t Catholic and never attended Church. The children at my school never knew anything more than he was the baseball coach.

Most children in a Catholic school should notice that Heather has two mommies and may say “that’s not right. Or is it?”

 

[Thorolfr]

I see both sides, but I also think people have their heads in the sand sometimes.
I have to deal with people as they present themselves, and encourage people to fall in love with Christ. At some point we all have to model Christlike behavior.
What would the Gospels sound like if Christ never said “repent”? Or He never spoke to or ate with sinners?
He didn’t CONDONE anything evil. Neither does the Church and her schools.
but they are populated with people. People in need of mercy and yes, correction.

 

[1990Domer]

Clearly, extrapolating from one family’s experience is a great way to generalize.

In my Polish family we have 0 priests. 0 bishops. 0 nuns though my mom left the convent and married someone who had been married twice before. Lots of people who never attend church, use contraception, used fertility treatments to have their children.

Didn’t you mention your BIL had a “husband”?

Just to bring this thread full circle before it goes totally off the rails…

To the OP if you’re still reading. What do you do? You treat this child and those with whom he lives with respect. They deserve that much as human beings. If you don’t want to give a mixed message to your child then explain to him/her (if age appropriate) what our beliefs are but that we always show love and respect.

If you’re not comfortable sending your child to their home (and this is a personal choice) and your child is friends with this child then keep play dates at your house. This may be a moot point of your kids never become friends, which may be for a thousand reasons unrelated to the parents.

How they live is none of your business as how you live is none of theirs.

No, BIL is openly gay and atheist. I’m not sure what his deal is because he’s tried for 22 years to break yo our marriage.

 

[1990Domer]

Please accept my sincere apologies for hurting your feelings. To be clear, when I wrote “invalid marriage” I didn’t mean that your parents didn’t love one another, weren’t kind people and were not dedicated to each other. I was referencing technically to what the Catholic church deems an invalid marriage sorry I wasn’t clear. I based that on your previous post where you said your mother was a former nun and your father was twice-divorced without seeking annulment and they were married on a mountaintop.

I will bow out of the discussion since you wrote you felt like you move further from the Catholic church when you read posts. I don’t want to be a part of that, again I am sorry for any feelings I may have hurt. We have differences in parenting philosophies but I meant no personal attack on your family. God bless.

I echo Monicad. This is getting in too deep for me. There are too many mis assumptions and angry words. I wil pray for this family!

 

[Magdalen2013]

Matthew 19:14

But Jesus said, Suffer the little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[EasterJoy]

Matthew 19:14

But Jesus said, Suffer the little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Chapter 19 of Matthew, yes, but do not forget Chapter 18:

*Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one child such as this in my name receives me.

Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come! If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life maimed or crippled than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into fiery Gehenna.

See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of my heavenly Father*.

Matt. 18:4-10

 

[1990Domer]

Can we all agree it is not the child’s fault? The child should be loved and pitied. This is an issue with the parish and the school. I wish the moderators would close this thread.

 

[1990Domer]

No. No I don’t.

And I don’t see “scandal”. I see opportunity for education and a chance to be charitable.

Then again, it takes an awful lot to get my panties in a bunch.

Perhaps you should learn what scandal is and how sinful it can be.

 

[PhiloMed]

Perhaps you should learn what scandal is and how sinful it can be.

And perhaps you should… Oh never mind. You’re never going to get it.

 

[pianistclare]

This happens a lot on these forums.
People make a bold blanket statement, believing that everyone will certainly agree, and when called out for exactly what they have written, they cry foul.
If I had a buck for every time someone post “stop twisting my words!” I could build our parish a new education center.

So many times, when one is obsessed with “scandal” it’s because they have lived through one, are afraid of one, and are likely paying some lawyers because of one.
That’s the only thing that causes people to stop acting charitably.
The schools TEACH. They teach the truth, hopefully. Where would a child learn the truth? At school. Where would a child be privy to adult conversation about things that should not be shared with children? Around the dinner table and the carpool line.

I’d rather the child learn the truth, with charity, than play the “what if” game. My daughters know my position on these things, the Church’s position (which is the same, just to beat someone to the punch) and they understand how to charitably disagree with friends who want to push an agenda. Because we parents are the first educators of the faith. The schools exist to help. If one relies on the parish and the school to shield their children from others, then there is always going to be angst, anger, and disappointment. Nothing replaces good instruction by parents who model morality and kindness. They go hand in hand. I never worried. I knew what I taught.
Papers that are signed, make good toilet tissue.
People sign marriage licenses all the time, and void their vows. People sign tax documents that are often a tad false. People sign that they will go to Mass every Sunday. Why? Because they WANT something. One that “thing” has been rewarded? You can toss that paper. There’s a problem with “signing” your morality, It can’t be done.

 

[MomaMary8]

Here you go.
From the CCC

Respect for the souls of others: scandal

2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. the person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."85 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.86

2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.

Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."87 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,88 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.

2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"89

 

[PhiloMed]

This happens a lot on these forums.
People make a bold blanket statement, believing that everyone will certainly agree, and when called out for exactly what they have written, they cry foul.
If I had a buck for every time someone post “stop twisting my words!” I could build our parish a new education center.

So many times, when one is obsessed with “scandal” it’s because they have lived through one, are afraid of one, and are likely paying some lawyers because of one.
That’s the only thing that causes people to stop acting charitably.
The schools TEACH. They teach the truth, hopefully. Where would a child learn the truth? At school. Where would a child be privy to adult conversation about things that should not be shared with children? Around the dinner table and the carpool line.

I’d rather the child learn the truth, with charity, than play the “what if” game. My daughters know my position on these things, the Church’s position (which is the same, just to beat someone to the punch) and they understand how to charitably disagree with friends who want to push an agenda. Because we parents are the first educators of the faith. The schools exist to help. If one relies on the parish and the school to shield their children from others, then there is always going to be angst, anger, and disappointment. Nothing replaces good instruction by parents who model morality and kindness. They go hand in hand. I never worried. I knew what I taught.
Papers that are signed, make good toilet tissue.
People sign marriage licenses all the time, and void their vows. People sign tax documents that are often a tad false. People sign that they will go to Mass every Sunday. Why? Because they WANT something. One that “thing” has been rewarded? You can toss that paper. There’s a problem with “signing” your morality, It can’t be done.

Exactly. We meet people where they are, not where we want them to be. Hopefully we can get them where we want them to be.

And you’re right about those private issues almost always becoming public. It’s amazing how much I knew about the lives of my friends parents either from being at their home or just from hearing it from the kids themselves. Kids share and over share information. Without hearing those things and having an open discussion at home I would have been incapable of handling life outside of the security of my home.

 

[marymary1975]

Yeah, but you know what? That’s what happens. (I totally get what you’re saying…btw )

But seriously.:
I don’t know how many times I’ve had to deal with some very argumentative and unhelpful parishioners…"but they’re big givers, or whatever…we leave them alone". Don’t upset them.

I think that’s what I’m reacting to. People think that the churches and the schools are a haven for Saints. An insurance policy of sorts against secularism.
It’s not that way. Anywhere. People can say "Not at MY school: all they want. I’ll bet they just aren’t aware.

It’s just not real life.
In real life some poor kid has 2 moms. What? We just abandon them? We’re nicer to our pets.

I think this thread has run it’s course.
I see both sides, but I also think people have their heads in the sand sometimes.
I have to deal with people as they present themselves, and encourage people to fall in love with Christ. At some point we all have to model Christlike behavior.
What would the Gospels sound like if Christ never said “repent”? Or He never spoke to or ate with sinners?
He didn’t CONDONE anything evil. Neither does the Church and her schools.
but they are populated with people. People in need of mercy and yes, correction.

This happens a lot on these forums.
People make a bold blanket statement, believing that everyone will certainly agree, and when called out for exactly what they have written, they cry foul.
If I had a buck for every time someone post “stop twisting my words!” I could build our parish a new education center.

So many times, when one is obsessed with “scandal” it’s because they have lived through one, are afraid of one, and are likely paying some lawyers because of one.
That’s the only thing that causes people to stop acting charitably.
The schools TEACH. They teach the truth, hopefully. Where would a child learn the truth? At school. Where would a child be privy to adult conversation about things that should not be shared with children? Around the dinner table and the carpool line.

I’d rather the child learn the truth, with charity, than play the “what if” game. My daughters know my position on these things, the Church’s position (which is the same, just to beat someone to the punch) and they understand how to charitably disagree with friends who want to push an agenda. Because we parents are the first educators of the faith. The schools exist to help. If one relies on the parish and the school to shield their children from others, then there is always going to be angst, anger, and disappointment. Nothing replaces good instruction by parents who model morality and kindness. They go hand in hand. I never worried. I knew what I taught.
Papers that are signed, make good toilet tissue.
People sign marriage licenses all the time, and void their vows. People sign tax documents that are often a tad false. People sign that they will go to Mass every Sunday. Why? Because they WANT something. One that “thing” has been rewarded? You can toss that paper. There’s a problem with “signing” your morality, It can’t be done.

Absolutely agree. The priest that runs my daughter’s Catholic.school always says something.very similar to this.

 

[1990Domer]

And perhaps you should… Oh never mind. You’re never going to get it.

I was once there. I wised up when I loved into an orthodox Archdiocese…

 

[pianistclare]

Unsubscribing.
We can’t compare Diocese like apples and oranges.
We can’t give a sideways jab at Bishops.
I’m out.

 

[1990Domer]

This happens a lot on these forums.
People make a bold blanket statement, believing that everyone will certainly agree, and when called out for exactly what they have written, they cry foul.
If I had a buck for every time someone post “stop twisting my words!” I could build our parish a new education center.

So many times, when one is obsessed with “scandal” it’s because they have lived through one, are afraid of one, and are likely paying some lawyers because of one.
That’s the only thing that causes people to stop acting charitably.
The schools TEACH. They teach the truth, hopefully. Where would a child learn the truth? At school. Where would a child be privy to adult conversation about things that should not be shared with children? Around the dinner table and the carpool line.

I’d rather the child learn the truth, with charity, than play the “what if” game. My daughters know my position on these things, the Church’s position (which is the same, just to beat someone to the punch) and they understand how to charitably disagree with friends who want to push an agenda. Because we parents are the first educators of the faith. The schools exist to help. If one relies on the parish and the school to shield their children from others, then there is always going to be angst, anger, and disappointment. Nothing replaces good instruction by parents who model morality and kindness. They go hand in hand. I never worried. I knew what I taught.
Papers that are signed, make good toilet tissue.
People sign marriage licenses all the time, and void their vows. People sign tax documents that are often a tad false. People sign that they will go to Mass every Sunday. Why? Because they WANT something. One that “thing” has been rewarded? You can toss that paper. There’s a problem with “signing” your morality, It can’t be done.

My autistic son was bullied out of his Catholic school and is still suffering the effects. Nice that his classmates called him a pedophile and homosexual when he wanted to be a priest.

Walk in my shoes for a mile. I bet you wouldn’t like it. So obviously, we were not one of the “in” crowd.