Study the Qur’an?

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TonyBS
Since You studied the quran…and I’m assuming you studied the Bible as well. You believe the “Day of Resurrection” has come and gone. Do you believe the second coming of Christ has come and gone? Or the book of Revelation
 
We can accept and believe in each other’s religion and many already do.

There are two parts to any religion.
  1. The spiritual teachings such as love one another, justice, mercy, compassion, forgiveness etc
  2. Social laws revealed for each age which are only for a certain time Those laws are often discarded when they are no longer of any use.
But we can accept the golden thread that runs through every faith and still be loyal and faithful to our own beliefs. Why not?
If the quran is true, then islam is false. Why? Because the quran says to trust the Gospels, but the four Gospels contradict the quran. This means the quran can’t be true if it says the Gospel message is also true
 
TonyBS
Since You studied the quran…and I’m assuming you studied the Bible as well. You believe the “Day of Resurrection” has come and gone. Do you believe the second coming of Christ has come and gone? Or the book of Revelation
Hi Jimmy,

Is this the right thread for us to discuss this or do we have to move elsewhere?

it depends on our understanding . Christians have many differing views on Christ’s Return and understand the Book of Revelation, a most beautiful Book, in different ways.

As long as you are happy with you’re understanding & interpretation of Christ’s Return then cherish it and thank God for giving you knowledge and true understanding. We all understand differently and sharing views in a loving spirit is blest by God.

In the Quran there are ‘signs’ of the last day also. Muslims understand it differently amongst themselves too. Not all Muslims believe Muhammad is the last prophet though because the Quran speaks that the Day of Judgement will come after Muhammad.
 
If the quran is true, then islam is false. Why? Because the quran says to trust the Gospels, but the four Gospels contradict the quran. This means the quran can’t be true if it says the Gospel message is also true
Yes they most certainly do contradict each other with regards to the social laws.

But the Quran states Jesus is the Messiah born of a virgin. Believes in one God and all the Prophets gone before of the House of Israel and teaches love, compassion, generosity, to pray and fast, not to kill, not to commit adultery, to keep knees promise, to be honest and truthful etc.

Spiritually the Bibke and Quran complement each other.

The on,y difference is both Christ and Muhammad gave social laws that were needed for that time. If forgiveness was more important in Christd time thrn self defense was equally important in Muhummad’s time to prevent genocide.

No real contradictions only outward laws.
 
This is a thread about the Studying the Qur’an right? So how do you know this term is it in the Quran? A orderly answer please 🙂

And after that let’s use the Quran explaining the Thief in the Night (you can state the verses because I don’t read it) how it is about the End Times that will come like a Thief in the Night exactly as it was explained by the person who spoke about it and who it relates to.🙂

MJ
Yes but the question was in regards to the End Times Martin, and the question was from a Catholic.

When a Catholic asks me a question about End Times, I usually answer them in a language that they understand.

Would you talk to an English-speaking American in Arabic?

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Just want to say something if it’s ok.

Thanks everyone for having me here and putting up with me. I believe you are good people. I have always been very fortunate that God places me in the company of people like you all here.

Thanks for allowing me to share and express myself.

In some forums I get insulted and ridiculed for speaking about God and religion but here I feel safe

I find people here very humble and godly. You all sound like very nice people.
 
Yes but the question was in regards to the End Times Martin, and the question was from a Catholic.

When a Catholic asks me a question about End Times, I usually answer them in a language that they understand.

Would you talk to an English-speaking American in Arabic?

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In a language we would understand is the book of Revelation. No more spin offs from outside sources.
Matthew 24:11 “Many false prophets will arise; they will deceive many,”
 
In a language we would understand is the book of Revelation. No more spin offs from outside sources.
Matthew 24:11 “Many false prophets will arise; they will deceive many,”
They are undeceivable .
 
In a language we would understand is the book of Revelation. No more spin offs from outside sources.
Matthew 24:11 “Many false prophets will arise; they will deceive many,”
Yes, the Jews all say the same thing dear Jimmy.

History is full of repeated mistakes. We are either amongst those who are resurrected in life or resurrected in death.

🙂

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Please provide the verse from the Qur’an when God instructs Abraham to take Ishmael to be taken up the mountain 🙂

What do Buddhists say about Abraham?

MJ
Or more importantly, what does Abraham say about Krishna and Buddha?

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Sure. That’s why Jesus is the answer. His words spoken with Authority. 🙂

MJ
None of it was His Words, it was all the Father’s 🙂

John 12:49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken

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(from Arte)
Mohamed had sex with a 9 year girl,
That is not true and that issue is very confused. There is more just one of them:

[www.theguardian.com › Opinion › Islam](www.theguardian.com › Opinion › Islam)
raped wives and daughters of husbands and fathers that his army had killed,
had multiple wives and sex slaves,
had POWs including boys beheaded
and had a poet killed because she criticised him.
All these issues are being manipulated and it will take long to discuss.
The holy book that Mohamed instigated, the Quran, and the holy books that records Mohamed’s sayings/actions, the Hadith/Sunnah, are full of violent verses that are extant – still open. Therefore, Islamic terrorism has everything to do with Mohamed because all Muslims REVERE the grossly immoral person I described above and “his” Islamic Holy Scripture is full of open (not closed) violent verses which can and are used by Islamic terrorists and their many millions of supporters.
Muhammad did not kill Pagans when He conquered Mecca. Sultan Saladin did not persecute Christians when he conquered Jerusalem but crusaders had done. Sultan Fatih Mehmet did not persecute Christians when he conquered Istanbul. Ottoman State did not persecute while it conquered many places in Europe.

Christians states caused millions(for about 90 millions) of people to die through world wars and other ways in last century. Crusaders had commited many persecutions. And yet Christians talk much about “love”!

The verses in Qur’an allow Muslims to fight when they are being attacked. Fighting is a fact in human history which start with first humans and Qur’an establishes most peaceful orders for wars.
 
TonyBS
Since You studied the quran…and I’m assuming you studied the Bible as well. You believe the “Day of Resurrection” has come and gone. Do you believe the second coming of Christ has come and gone? Or the book of Revelation
Yes no Doubt about that one 😉 The signs are Biblical and if we look with justice, undeniable.

We are now in the “Day of Judgment”.

God bless all.

Regards Tony
 
That is not true and that issue is very confused. There is more just one of them:

[www.theguardian.com › Opinion › Islam](www.theguardian.com › Opinion › Islam)

All these issues are being manipulated and it will take long to discuss.

Muhammad did not kill Pagans when He conquered Mecca. Sultan Saladin did not persecute Christians when he conquered Jerusalem but crusaders had done. Sultan Fatih Mehmet did not persecute Christians when he conquered Istanbul. Ottoman State did not persecute while it conquered many places in Europe.

Christians states caused millions(for about 90 millions) of people to die through world wars and other ways in last century. Crusaders had commited many persecutions. And yet Christians talk much about “love”!

The verses in Qur’an allow Muslims to fight when they are being attacked. Fighting is a fact in human history which start with first humans and Qur’an establishes most peaceful orders for wars.
Let’s consider a few things. I’ll do a full response later on tonight. During we the Turks systematically expunged the Armenian and greek peoples, also the Japanese did tremendously evil things during WW2 to enemy prisoners and the Chinese people. Hitler, animated not by a Spirit of Christendom but the popular science of his day set out to conquer the world. It was the west that took a stand against such evils and not islam. Before blaming the world wars on Christendom, please consider there were other factors at play. Who was truly Christian during the time, was it not Bonhoeffer, Pope Pius the 12th and C.S Lewis?

As for the Turks not per suiting their Christian subjects, it depends what we call persecution. Is taking the boys from Christian families and forcibly converting them to Islam persecution? Is it persecution to take the greatest churches and defile them by transforming them into mosques? What about the office of the patriarch which now under the Turks went to whomever had the most money? Is he status of Dhimmi something a Muslim would like to live under? There’s a reason why so many converted to Islam, they converted because it was easier being a Muslim than it was being a Christian.

Also should we consider the crusades in context? How many centuries were Christians subject to the constant barrage attacks of Muslims until they finally responded? North Africa, Egypt, Jeruselum were at one point Christian. Then we see the invasions into Spain, Muslim pirates caltering westerners as slaves and bringing them back home. The crusades were not perfect, but the world is a better place because of them, because without them we might have been overrun.
 
Let’s consider a few things. I’ll do a full response later on tonight. During we the Turks systematically expunged the Armenian and greek peoples, also the Japanese did tremendously evil things during WW2 to enemy prisoners and the Chinese people. Hitler, animated not by a Spirit of Christendom but the popular science of his day set out to conquer the world. It was the west that took a stand against such evils and not islam. Before blaming the world wars on Christendom, please consider there were other factors at play. Who was truly Christian during the time, was it not Bonhoeffer, Pope Pius the 12th and C.S Lewis?

As for the Turks not per suiting their Christian subjects, it depends what we call persecution. Is taking the boys from Christian families and forcibly converting them to Islam persecution? Is it persecution to take the greatest churches and defile them by transforming them into mosques? What about the office of the patriarch which now under the Turks went to whomever had the most money? Is he status of Dhimmi something a Muslim would like to live under? There’s a reason why so many converted to Islam, they converted because it was easier being a Muslim than it was being a Christian.

Also should we consider the crusades in context? How many centuries were Christians subject to the constant barrage attacks of Muslims until they finally responded? North Africa, Egypt, Jeruselum were at one point Christian. Then we see the invasions into Spain, Muslim pirates caltering westerners as slaves and bringing them back home. The crusades were not perfect, but the world is a better place because of them, because without them we might have been overrun.
You seem a bit angry. Ottoman took Christian boys but that was an advantage for those childs. They could have importand positions in state. You may have a right that those childs got converted to Islam under care of Islamic families. That was a political law of Ottoman.

As much I know Muslims did not destroy churchs maybe some churchs transformed to mosques becuase of need. But Christians destroyed many mosques in last some centuries after Ottoman.

Dhimni is a description and give chance and permission to non-Muslims to hold their religion. I do not think a Dhimni has disadvantages.

And you may be right that it was more easy to be Muslim for economical and social benefits. But that situation do not refute that Islam has a great fact and affection. Otherwise nobody choice which supposed to be false belief so easily.
 
Just a brief note regarding Aisha.

First. Muslims are forbidden illicit sex with any women before marriage.
Next they can only marry women who have reached maturity.

The misunderstanding with Aisha has its almost parallel but not identical with Mary in the Bible. As we all know Mary, who was a virgin could not explain how she became pregnant and was disgraced. It’s interesting that the Quran agrees that Mary was wronged because with Muhammad a similar event occurred.

You can read the full story here if you want full clarification

iqrasense.com/islamic-history/the-slander-against-ayesha-ra-mother-of-the-believers-and-her-vindication-by-allah.html

What happened was they were travelling in a camel caravan and Aisha fell behind. When Muhammad noticed He went back and brought her back to the caravan. Those who were insincere began rumours and slander that ‘something’ had happened meaning sexually and thus she went through similar shaming that Mary felt having been completely innocent.

Sura 24: 11-21 was revealed. For brevity just the first verse.

“Those who concocted that slander were surely a clique from among your own people. Do not regard it as a misfortune, for it has proved an advantage. Each one of them shall be punished according to his sin. As for him who had the greater share in it among them, his punishment shall be terrible indeed.”

Muhammad never, ever committed the things He was accused of but even His own followers like Christ’s sometimes did disobey or even betray Him.

Some people use this to try and defame Muhammad but close investigation will find the accusations are false.
 
You seem a bit angry. Ottoman took Christian boys but that was an advantage for those childs. They could have importand positions in state. You may have a right that those childs got converted to Islam under care of Islamic families. That was a political law of Ottoman.

As much I know Muslims did not destroy churchs maybe some churchs transformed to mosques becuase of need. But Christians destroyed many mosques in last some centuries after Ottoman.

Dhimni is a description and give chance and permission to non-Muslims to hold their religion. I do not think a Dhimni has disadvantages.

And you may be right that it was more easy to be Muslim for economical and social benefits. But that situation do not refute that Islam has a great fact and affection. Otherwise nobody choice which supposed to be false belief so easily.
I’m reminded of two stories, the first is that of the Jewish woman during the time of the maccabees who encouraged her children to die rather than give in, sacrifice to the gods and eat pork. The second is Saint Sophia and her three children, she encouraged each of them to die rather than sacrifice or praise Caesar. This is the Christian belief in things, it is better to die in pain, suffering and torture, than have material things and false religion and be lost to God forever. It however, the taking of children from their parents, is persecution, no matter how you justify it. Why couldn’t if the Ottomon empire was so great, they remain Christian and get all the benefits you mention? Perhaps ones status as a Christian impaired one’s chances to serve imperial powers hmm? Perhaps ones status as Dhimmi prohibited one from certain jobs?

I don’t know about destroying churches, but I know about converting churches, which seems to be the main of what Ottomons did. They took Christendom’s greatest church and defiled it. They destroyed the icons, altar area no doubt and the vessels which were used during the liturgy. It wasn’t only the Hagia Sophia but a good portion of the churches. Consider these two wiki articles

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Turkey (I see more purple than other colours)

As for destruction of churches by Muslims, consider one of the inciting factors of the Crusades, the destruction of Church of the Holy Sepulche by the Fatimid Caliph, Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah. Now before I investigate this more thoroughly, are so sure you want to suggest Muslims destroyed no Christian churches?

I would ask you some things about the Dhimmi status. What happens to the Christian who fails to pay the Jizya with willing submission? What then happens if he refuses to convert to Islam? What did happen? Nothing? As for Dhimmi only meaning you are protected I would ask, was any Dhimmi under islam allowed to explain why they rejected Muhammad? Would they have been allowed to call Muhammad a False prophet to another Muslim? Would a Muslim have been allowed to become a Dhimmi if they wanted to become a Christian? I suspect you have bought into a rose tinted version of Islamic history Hasantas.

Here is something enlightening from Sydney H Griffith

"There is no doubt then that in the view of the stipulations of the Covenant of Umar the Dhimmi populations of Christans in the Islamic world were what we would now call “second class citizens,” if the term “citizen” can even be meaningfully used of people whose presence in the body politic is merely tolerated. The legal disabilities that governed their lives required subservience, often accompanied by prescriptions to wear distinctive clothing and to cease from public display of their religion, and, of course, to refrain from inviting converts from among the Muslims. Christian wealth, buildings, institutions and properties were often subject to seizure. As a consequence, over the course of time, the number of bishoprics, churches, monasteries, and schools gradually decreased, having fallen victim to the very conditions of the official establishment of Islam. These circumstances of a necessity put dhimmi groups such as the Christian communities at risk; in spite of their numbers they became sociological minorities, subaltern populations subject to discrimination, disability and at times even persecution. "

The church in the shadow of the Mosque, chapter One.

I do not believe the picture of Islamic history you present Hasantas, as if Islam were some beacon of enlightenment and this is one the problems I have with islam. The last point you raise is that no one chose false belief so easily. I happen to think given the time that elapsed and the conditions under which Christians fared while under Islamic rule, people gave into the original sin rather than persevere through suffering. It’s human nature to give into what is easy and it was simply much easier being a Muslim in a Muslim country (that’s still the case) than it is to be a Christian or (especially) a Jew.
 
You seem a bit angry. Ottoman took Christian boys but that was an advantage for those childs. They could have importand positions in state. You may have a right that those childs got converted to Islam under care of Islamic families. That was a political law of Ottoman.

As much I know Muslims did not destroy churchs maybe some churchs transformed to mosques becuase of need. But Christians destroyed many mosques in last some centuries after Ottoman.

Dhimni is a description and give chance and permission to non-Muslims to hold their religion. I do not think a Dhimni has disadvantages.

And you may be right that it was more easy to be Muslim for economical and social benefits. But that situation do not refute that Islam has a great fact and affection. Otherwise nobody choice which supposed to be false belief so easily.
What we can get out of this is that you are talking highly of Islam. You are telling us about Islam which you believe, of course you do, is God’s religion, and a good religion at that. That is OK because as a Muslim you have to take Islam that way, and you are taught to think of it that way.

As a non-Muslim listening to you glowingly telling us that it was to their parents advantage that their children were taken away from them and got converted to another religion, Islam, I suddenly realize that Islam is not a religion that teaches the Golden Rule - do to others what you want others to do to you.

Have you tried to put yourself on those parents shoes, and feel how they must have felt? But as far as I know, Islam does not do that - Muslims are the superior people and the kafirs,are, well, infidels - it is good enough that they were given chance to stay alive and not Islamized. So that, perhaps, just perhaps, is why you do not even apologize why the greatest church in Christendom should be desecrated, trampled and eventually turned into an Islamic mosque. If you had worn their shoes, maybe like the Al Aqsa mosque or the one in Mecca, conquered by Christians and turned into Christian cathedrals, that may change your tone a bit.
 
Might I remind you dear Jharek that forcibly removing children from their families is a lamentable part of the Catholic Church’s history too.

All these things come as a result of what is in evidence in this thread…

…that is, the elitist attitude that we are the owners of Truth and you are not…

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Might I remind you dear Jharek that forcibly removing children from their families is a lamentable part of the Catholic Church’s history too.

All these things come as a result of what is in evidence in this thread…

…that is, the elitist attitude that we are the owners of Truth and you are not…

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True. And I would not defend it. It was certainly wrong, disgusting and not right, not a Christian thing, even if Christians were doing it.
 
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