Sunday Best? Church Leaders Blush at "Casual Catholic" Dress

[sw85]

When I attend the Tridentine (EF Mass), yes I am much more conscious of what I choose to wear because more people are dressed appropriately and modestly. That has affected how I dress for Ordinary Form Mass.

At the EF Masses I have attended at a variety of diocesan churches in the past 3 to 4 months, people have shown up wearing mainly:

Men/boys – khaki pants with either polo shirts or button down shirts ; dress shirts & pants - some wear ties & a jacket too ; very few wear jeans but those who did they were not tight or very baggy with polo shirts or button down shirts

Women/girls – Dresses that reach the knees or below, short or long sleeved, nothing sleeveless/tight/revealing ; skirts that reach the knees - tight/revealing ; Shirts/sweaters/blouses short or long sleeved not tight/revealing/showing cleavage (with pants or skirts) ; Pants - dressy or khaki types but not tight/revealing ; Many but not all wear some type of head covering like mantillas, veils, headscarf, or chapel caps/veils most popular option

Thanks!

 

[Elizabeth502]

I was merely trying to point out that judging our brothers and sisters in church for what they are wearing is not very Christ like.

And about ten of us have repeatedly pointed out that those who choose to dress ever so slightly differently from our Satuday-chore attire have never judged, do not judge, and will not judge others when they do wear Saturday-chore attire/outdoor grunge picnic attire, etc. But when we plead with others to judge themselves, their own dress, we are called names, stereotyped, and judged as “superficial,” “pretentious,” “un-Christian,” “snotty,” yadayada.

A plea is not a “judgment.” It is a plea. And the plea has been met with unnecessary hostility, when no one was attacked.

I am sadden by the lack of the same charitable thinking by my fellow Catholic brothers and sisters.

Seriously. Same here. :sad_yes: And most especially by those calling themselves “more Christian” than those who dare to wear a buttoned shirt or footwear other than what is worn in the gym showers. Hmmm.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Ditto. But don’t you know? That’s “pretentious,” “judging people,” and “snotty.”

Who knew?

I think it’s not asking for much to leave the symbols of the culture, the low standards of the culture, and the degradation of the culture outside of the nave and the sanctuary. (Many who wear extremes of the above, such as short-short-shorts, and high-thigh mini skirts, are EMHC’s.)

Thanks for your civility, and for not calling names.

I think the only one calling people who dress up super nice that is you? You were responding to a post where the poster was arguing for basic modest…even said she just didn’t want to see shorts too high… But she didn’t say no shorts. But then you turn around and say things such as “they look like they are coming for the gym” Or they put the “least amount of effort into it” or “it seems like they are arguing for who can dress down the most”.

Sorry but that doesn’t sound like you are asking us to nicely examine our hearts and motives…

If someone was in our parish in a suit and a tie…I wouldn’t judget them that they are trying to appear superior…nor would I assume that they were judging me. But if someone made comments such as I mentioned in my first paragraph…then ya…I would assume they are judging me…as would any reasonable person.

You want to dress in a skirt or dress…fine by me…but if I wear dockers and I’m fine with it…then don’t assume I haven’t examined my heart and I won’t assume you haven’t examine yours…simple…

Of course low rise, butt crack showing, hooters T-shirts…that’s a modesty issue…and I think we all agree there…no?

 

[CMatt25]

And about ten of us have repeatedly pointed out that those who choose to dress ever so slightly differently from our Satuday-chore attire have never judged, do not judge, and will not judge others when they do wear Saturday-chore attire/outdoor grunge picnic attire, etc. But when we plead with others to judge themselves, their own dress, we are called names, stereotyped, and judged as “superficial,” “pretentious,” “un-Christian,” “snotty,” yadayada.

A plea is not a “judgment.” It is a plea. And the plea has been met with unnecessary hostility, when no one was attacked.

Seriously. Same here. :sad_yes: And most especially by those calling themselves “more Christian” than those who dare to wear a buttoned shirt or footwear other than what is worn in the gym showers. Hmmm.

Another strawman.

Those of us who have judged our dress for ourselves and wear more casual wear are not saying we are more nor less Christian. So if truly all it is that about the 10 of you want is for each person to judge their dress for themselves. Done. Those of us who wear more casual attire, for example be it jeans, docker shorts, short sleeves, shirts without buttons, plain tee shirts, sports team jerseys, athletic footwear, have done so. But we now expect you and everyone to accept our judgment of our own dress and to go to Mass not wondering about others hearts and respect based on their attire. If it is that’s all you truly want of course.

 

[CMatt25]

St Paul to the Romans: “Wherefore receive one another, as Christ also hath received you unto the honour of God.”

 

[severus68]

Another strawman.

Those of us who have judged our dress for ourselves and wear more casual wear are not saying we are more nor less Christian. So if truly all it is that about the 10 of you want is for each person to judge their dress for themselves. Done. Those of us who wear more casual attire, for example be it jeans, docker shorts, short sleeves, shirts without buttons, plain tee shirts, sports team jerseys, athletic footwear, have done so. But we now expect you and everyone to accept our judgment of our own dress and to go to Mass not wondering about others hearts and respect based on their attire. If it is that’s all you truly want of course.

Amen to that, nicely said.

 

[Riley08]

And about ten of us have repeatedly pointed out that those who choose to dress ever so slightly differently from our Satuday-chore attire have never judged, do not judge, and will not judge others when they do wear Saturday-chore attire/outdoor grunge picnic attire, etc. But when we plead with others to judge themselves, their own dress, we are called names, stereotyped, and judged as “superficial,” “pretentious,” “un-Christian,” “snotty,” yadayada.

A plea is not a “judgment.” It is a plea. And the plea has been met with unnecessary hostility, when no one was attacked.

Seriously. Same here. :sad_yes: And most especially by those calling themselves “more Christian” than those who dare to wear a buttoned shirt or footwear other than what is worn in the gym showers. Hmmm.

The fact that you even notice what people are wearing in church and feel compelled to “point out” the difference in dress is the issue. Seriously, why would this even be on your mind at church? If you don’t like what others are wearing, don’t look at them. We aren’t telling you that you can’t wear your Sunday best we are just asking you to let us wear what we want as well. Why does that make us “defensive”?

I agree if someone has way too much flesh showing it can be distracting and is not appropriate but that is not what any of us are talking about here. Do you really not understand the other side on this one?

Perhaps this issue shows us the real reason the human race is in so much trouble.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Another strawman.

Those of us who have judged our dress for ourselves and wear more casual wear are not saying we are more nor less Christian. So if truly all it is that about the 10 of you want is for each person to judge their dress for themselves. Done. Those of us who wear more casual attire, for example be it jeans, docker shorts, short sleeves, shirts without buttons, plain tee shirts, sports team jerseys, athletic footwear, have done so. But we now expect you and everyone to accept our judgment of our own dress and to go to Mass not wondering about others hearts and respect based on their attire. If it is that’s all you truly want of course.

As I’m sure you know, Matt, judgment of the self can be quite, quite inaccurate, if the self is not properly ‘informed’.

If a child were never told, for example, to show good manners by saying please and thank you, had this behavior modeled for him by parents and friends, then when the child grows to adulthood and thinks that it is perfectly right and acceptable to never say please or thank you, he has never done it before, and so he’s ‘comfortable’ with it. . .

Would you say that his ‘judgment’ regarding good manners or the need to say please and thank you to show this ‘outwardly’ is fine for him?

I think that would be relativism. . .and I think a lot of people are not very willing to actually make the effort to truly explore themselves, their faith, and aspects thereof. . .I think many people just believe that as long as THEY are ‘comfortable’ with something, then GOD is comfortable with it too, and therefore they can do, think, say, or where what they please because their ‘conscience’ says they can.

Now I’m not saying that every person who wears a jogging outfit to Mass (but a suit to work) is likewise going to have a ‘casual’ attitude toward other aspects of the faith. There are bound to be those who are ‘indifferent’ to clothes yet very knowledgeable of the faith.

Nor am I saying that every person who comes to Mass in a dress is going to have a thorough knowledge of the faith in every aspect and be totally on fire and fervent in all those aspects. There are bound to be those who think that ‘all’ they need do is present the ‘outward’ sign of piety yet never delve any deeper.

But on the whole, I do think that in this particular culture and at this particular time and among the majority of the 18-60 age group crowd, there are going to be MORE people, because of a MULTITUDE of factors, who will be both inwardly and outwardly ‘casual’ regarding their faith, more inclined to do the ‘least’, more inclined to the ‘reverse’ snobbism of the god of I wanna be comfortable. . .

than there are those who are outwardly ‘formal and fervent’ but inwardly lax.

Simply because for MANY people dressing in more than jeans and Ts IS an action which requires thought, which requires the person to be ‘less than comfortable’ even if they are physically comfortable but mentally not because they are outwardly not conforming to ‘the rest of the crowd’. In order to have the courage to dare to be different, they usually HAVE examined their motives more thoroughly, done more research, and striven more deeply, than Joe and Jane Jeans today, tomorrow, and every day.

Again I stress that I am not saying that any given INDIVIDUAL at Mass wearing sandals and shorts or a mini and flip flops isn’t absolutely more focused on God and loving and obeying Him than any given INDIVIDUAL at Mass wearing suit and tie but inwardly just going through the motions.

However, I also stress that precisely because one is going ‘against’ the societal ‘comfort is king’ rule there is a greater chance that the ‘more formal’ person is truly reflecting both outward AND inward fervent focus on the love of God and others.

While there is a lot of railing about being ‘misjudged’ for wearing casual clothes, aside from the occasional poster on the message board, most who wear such clothing get plenty of ‘support’ from the majority of Mass attendees who are wearing that same style. . .

While the posters in the ‘dressier’ styles often get hostile remarks made, catty whisperings about ‘stuck up’ or ‘snooty’, even flat out scolding by people, "What are you all dressed up for, who do you think you are? Get that hat off your head, lady, it’s RUDE. Think you’re BETTER than everybody else, doncha? God doesn’t care what you wear --unless you’re wearing stupid suits or dresses because THOSE offend Him!"

 

[Ahimsa]

Sunday Best? In some churches, it’s more like Sunday Breast. Sheesh.

 

[Riley08]

As I’m sure you know, Matt, judgment of the self can be quite, quite inaccurate, if the self is not properly ‘informed’.

If a child were never told, for example, to show good manners by saying please and thank you, had this behavior modeled for him by parents and friends, then when the child grows to adulthood and thinks that it is perfectly right and acceptable to never say please or thank you, he has never done it before, and so he’s ‘comfortable’ with it. . .

Would you say that his ‘judgment’ regarding good manners or the need to say please and thank you to show this ‘outwardly’ is fine for him?

I think that would be relativism. . .and I think a lot of people are not very willing to actually make the effort to truly explore themselves, their faith, and aspects thereof. . .I think many people just believe that as long as THEY are ‘comfortable’ with something, then GOD is comfortable with it too, and therefore they can do, think, say, or where what they please because their ‘conscience’ says they can.

Now I’m not saying that every person who wears a jogging outfit to Mass (but a suit to work) is likewise going to have a ‘casual’ attitude toward other aspects of the faith. There are bound to be those who are ‘indifferent’ to clothes yet very knowledgeable of the faith.

Nor am I saying that every person who comes to Mass in a dress is going to have a thorough knowledge of the faith in every aspect and be totally on fire and fervent in all those aspects. There are bound to be those who think that ‘all’ they need do is present the ‘outward’ sign of piety yet never delve any deeper.

But on the whole, I do think that in this particular culture and at this particular time and among the majority of the 18-60 age group crowd, there are going to be MORE people, because of a MULTITUDE of factors, who will be both inwardly and outwardly ‘casual’ regarding their faith, more inclined to do the ‘least’, more inclined to the ‘reverse’ snobbism of the god of I wanna be comfortable. . .

than there are those who are outwardly ‘formal and fervent’ but inwardly lax.

Simply because for MANY people dressing in more than jeans and Ts IS an action which requires thought, which requires the person to be ‘less than comfortable’ even if they are physically comfortable but mentally not because they are outwardly not conforming to ‘the rest of the crowd’. In order to have the courage to dare to be different, they usually HAVE examined their motives more thoroughly, done more research, and striven more deeply, than Joe and Jane Jeans today, tomorrow, and every day.

Again I stress that I am not saying that any given INDIVIDUAL at Mass wearing sandals and shorts or a mini and flip flops isn’t absolutely more focused on God and loving and obeying Him than any given INDIVIDUAL at Mass wearing suit and tie but inwardly just going through the motions.

However, I also stress that precisely because one is going ‘against’ the societal ‘comfort is king’ rule there is a greater chance that the ‘more formal’ person is truly reflecting both outward AND inward fervent focus on the love of God and others.

While there is a lot of railing about being ‘misjudged’ for wearing casual clothes, aside from the occasional poster on the message board, most who wear such clothing get plenty of ‘support’ from the majority of Mass attendees who are wearing that same style. . .

While the posters in the ‘dressier’ styles often get hostile remarks made, catty whisperings about ‘stuck up’ or ‘snooty’, even flat out scolding by people, "What are you all dressed up for, who do you think you are? Get that hat off your head, lady, it’s RUDE. Think you’re BETTER than everybody else, doncha? God doesn’t care what you wear --unless you’re wearing stupid suits or dresses because THOSE offend Him!"

So those of us who adopt a more casual attire, we are not properly informed? Are you serious?

For the record, I for one have never said anything about those who choose to dress up. Again, I fall into the category of worry about your own soul. How you have arrived at the fact that casual attire equals misinformed is way beyond me.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So those of us who adopt a more casual attire, we are not properly informed? Are you serious?

For the record, I for one have never said anything about those who choose to dress up. Again, I fall into the category of worry about your own soul. How you have arrived at the fact that casual attire equals misinformed is way beyond me.

Please read my post again carefully. I have NOT said that casual attire equals misinformed.

 

[Riley08]

I think the only one calling people who dress up super nice that is you? You were responding to a post where the poster was arguing for basic modest…even said she just didn’t want to see shorts too high… But she didn’t say no shorts. But then you turn around and say things such as “they look like they are coming for the gym” Or they put the “least amount of effort into it” or “it seems like they are arguing for who can dress down the most”.

Sorry but that doesn’t sound like you are asking us to nicely examine our hearts and motives…

If someone was in our parish in a suit and a tie…I wouldn’t judget them that they are trying to appear superior…nor would I assume that they were judging me. But if someone made comments such as I mentioned in my first paragraph…then ya…I would assume they are judging me…as would any reasonable person.

You want to dress in a skirt or dress…fine by me…but if I wear dockers and I’m fine with it…then don’t assume I haven’t examined my heart and I won’t assume you haven’t examine yours…simple…

Of course low rise, butt crack showing, hooters T-shirts…that’s a modesty issue…and I think we all agree there…no?

Well said! I couldn’t possily agree with you any more!!! I am amazed that this conversation has somehow turned into us having a problem with people dressing up.

 

[CMatt25]

Please read my post again carefully. I have NOT said that casual attire equals misinformed.

No Tantum. You didn’t say for everyone. But you used the words “I think” several times including what you think in regards to “a lot of people”. So at least we know what you think.

 

[Riley08]

Please read my post again carefully. I have NOT said that casual attire equals misinformed.

Perhaps you need to read your post again more carefully.

This is what you wrote:

“I think that would be relativism. . .and I think a lot of people are not very willing to actually make the effort to truly explore themselves, their faith, and aspects thereof. . .I think many people just believe that as long as THEY are ‘comfortable’ with something, then GOD is comfortable with it too, and therefore they can do, think, say, or where what they please because their ‘conscience’ says they can.”

Am I wrong that you are saying that those of us who have reached the conclusion that casual attire is okay are of the wrong belief in God’s eyes?

I do not pretend to know what is in other’s hearts but if you are having these thoughts, perhaps some honest self-evaluation is needed on your part.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Perhaps you need to read your post again more carefully.

This is what you wrote:

“I think that would be relativism. . .and I think a lot of people are not very willing to actually make the effort to truly explore themselves, their faith, and aspects thereof. . .I think many people just believe that as long as THEY are ‘comfortable’ with something, then GOD is comfortable with it too, and therefore they can do, think, say, or where what they please because their ‘conscience’ says they can.”

Am I wrong that you are saying that those of us who have reached the conclusion that casual attire is okay are of the wrong belief in God’s eyes?

I do not pretend to know what is in other’s hearts but if you are having these thoughts, perhaps some honest self-evaluation is needed on your part.

No I did not say that. Please read again carefully. I’ve written a few other posts here where I have stated clearly that ‘casual attire’ is a label that covers all sorts of things and that it can be absolutely appropriate. But people can be quite comfortable with, say, wearing a midriff top and short shorts to go shopping, or strolling–and then to Mass–and this attire, while casual, comfortable, and questionably societally appropriate for some events, is not really appropriate for Mass. And it is quite ‘different’ from the equally casual Jeans and T’s. . .clean modest jeans and Ts which I said in earlier posts (not too much earlier than this either) being appropriate but dirty, ripped ones (even if bought for $80 at the boutique) NOT appropriate if the person has clean whole ones in the closet equally ‘wearable’.

I hate to make my already somewhat wordy posts even wordier by having to recapitulate previous posts and dot every i so to speak, but I’m speaking of the kind of casual that is inappropriate due to vulgarity, ‘too much skin’, lack of cleanliness (if and ONLY if there are clean clothes the person could have worn instead, and NOT if it is a case where the person was staying in the hospital or was someplace he couldn’t change), or so ‘casual’ the person couldn’t even wear it to the grocery store at 3 a.m. without blushing (bunny slippers, bathrobe and curlers. . .and not in a hospital or nursing home setting or shortly after surgery–pajamas, bikinis).

I think you can see that the actual number of people who really wear totally inappropriate ‘casual wear’ is pretty small, but it will grow if there isn’t SOME kind of line drawn. Look at the ‘ripped jeans’ look that’s so popular this year. In a couple of years when it isn’t popular any more, though, it will show up at Mass because when it was popular people wore it to Mass and nobody blinked an eye --now when nobody would DREAM of wearing ripped jeans out to any other place though Mass will still be ‘all right’ in the minds of some.

 

[Mrs_V]

Jumping in a little late here, but I think this is a small window into our social changes/decline (depends on what side you are on). I am sure many will argue that I am making a big leap here, but as someone pointed out – this wouldn’t have been a discussion some years ago – but respect meant something totally different then.

I will wear a tie every Sunday – not because someone tells me to, not because everyone else does, not because it is comfortable – but as a sign of reverence - and to show respect for those around me.

One can argue up and down that it is what is in the heart that matters, but to me, how someone presents themselves is an outward expression of their sincerity. I would never wear jeans to a wedding, because I respect the Sacrament of Matrimony, I would never wear jeans to a funeral because I respect the departed and the grief of the family, I would never wear jeans to a baptism, because I respect Sacrament… I am afraid to ask what others would think is appropriate.

What is in ones heart is truly what matters, so much more than the outward appearance. With that said, one would have to do a strong examination into the why’s when deciding what is appropriate. Every action is deliberate and has a meaning – is it one of selfishness and/or convenience? Or is it one to honor the celebration of the Eucharist and the presence of Our Lord?

It’s not an issue of “judging a book by its cover”. I would never say one is less worthy of being there, that’s not my call to make. What I will say is that there is an “apparent” lack of reverence, but it all goes back to how each individual defines respect.

:clapping::clapping::clapping: WON-DER-FUL post!

 

[Tigg]

The fact that you even notice what people are wearing in church and feel compelled to “point out” the difference in dress is the issue. Seriously, why would this even be on your mind at church? If you don’t like what others are wearing, don’t look at them…

We aren’t telling you that you can’t wear your Sunday best we are just asking you to let us wear what we want as well.

(Emphasis mine)
Have you really read this thread and the OP? If so, you will see that it is **church leaders **who are making the appeal to those Catholics who attend Mass dressed according to the standards of our current pop culture, rather than considering the importance of the event (the Mass) taking place.

“I’ll say it from the pulpit,” Rev. Pilcher declares. "This isn’t the camper’s mass, this isn’t the hunter’s mass, it’s the Holy Mass……… Dress nicely, he says, "we are putting on these clothes to see our King."

 

[CMatt25]

Hi Tantum, I’ve read your earlier post multiple times and what I think perhaps Riley was wondering about, but I know I am, is this.

When you say things like “a lot of people”, “many”, or when you say, “on the whole… there are going to be MORE people… who will be both inwardly and outwardly casual”, we or at least I am just wondering if this is a special gift or ability you have to jud… er I mean… to determine the inward heart? And can you on the whole do this from your pew with an accurate level of certainty for many of those you see walk through the doors?

But I suppose only you can answer to that. In any case Tantum, may God bless you and each of us here and His peace be with each of us always.

 

[CMatt25]

(Emphasis mine)
Have you really read this thread and the OP? If so, you will see that it is **church leaders **who are making the appeal to those Catholics who attend Mass dressed according to the standards of our current pop culture, rather than considering the importance of the event (the Mass) taking place.

Again a deacon and 2 or 3 priests in NY and Arkansas in the OP link. What if someone in lets say Oregon had their priest draw a different line? Or take a bishop where I live who might compel Catholics to obey him by attending lets say a Thursday Holy Day. Or else commit mortal sin. Whereas a bishop in lets say Canada for instance might say there the feast day is transferred to Sunday. Surely you would not expect the Catholic where I live to obey the Canadian bishop in that regard.

 

[VeronicaAnne]

Why not? When I have to appear in court, I always wear a suit and tie and dress shoes. Now, I know that Jesus will understand if I come to Mass wearing wife-beaters, low-slung cut-off jeans showing part of the crack, and sneakers, but why is He to be the one dishonored while some traffic court judge is to be given greater respect?

I know this much. 40 years ago, a thread like this one would never appear anywhere.

Well, I do not make it a point to impress a traffic court judge by what I wear. As if being caught going too fast in a school zone on a weekday when I really truly thought it was a Sunday had anything to do with how safe a driver I am has to do with what I wore to traffic court.

I don’t have to impress Jesus, either. Other than the serious attempts I am always trying to make in following Him in what I think and do… and avoid doing.

I am not dishonoring our Lord if, for example, I was a man and wore a white, sleeveless undershirt by itself above my waist and/or low-slung, cutoff jeans … showing a crack, or not.

In any case, showing a crack would be disrespectful of others in the church at that Mass who saw it because a crack is just plain distracting to others. And so, to be avoided. But not because it would somehow be disrespectful of Jesus. Unless, of course, you’d be purposely intending to disrespect him BY MAKING SURE that there’s a crack happening. Unless, of course, the only pants you have happen to show one. And it’s either wearing those pants or NOT going to Mass. Easy choice. Go to Mass.

There’s nothing at all wrong with wearing sneakers to Mass! The only shoes I have are Rykas because they actually FIT my woman’s shaped feet. My size is 10 Wide. I really do wish they’d make Rykas in a style that is not athletic… in a 10-Wide – but, there you are.

I refuse to ever wear any shoe that is NOT flat (i.e., is any kind of heel). Which men don’t have to deal with when choosing “nice” shoes.

Bottom line – modest clothing as clean as you can get it is the way to go.

If anybody thinks otherwise of whether I’m respecting God by what I’m wearing to Mass, then they are judging me. And their (“Church leader,” priest, bishop, or lay person) judgment of me is not my concern.