E
- Status
A
Annabelle_Marie
Guest
I could care less what is written in the society pages about me…What are “dockers”?
Let’s rephrase. Say you wanted to have a productive meeting with the Pope or with the President, in which you find out what he wants, and you get what you want in return.
Does that change the equation at all? I mean, if you don’t care whether he likes you or not, you can wear your pyjamas to the meeting. But if you care about his opinion of you, and you care what will be written about you in the social pages about the meeting for your mother to read, then I think you would also care to dress appropriately for the occasion.
Are those my only two choices…formal wear or pj’s?
R
rlg94086
Guest
In that case, I recommend PJs that look like formal wear.
A
Annabelle_Marie
Guest
A
Annabelle_Marie
Guest
Blazer, dress shirt, and jeans and cowboy suit? You don’t say…oh wait…that’s what our govenor wears all the timeA false dichotomy is exactly what you have done. From Wikipedia:
What if someone wore a suit jacket or a blazer and jeans? I think I just heard somebody’s head exploded.I’ve seen it done, so where does that fall? A suit jacket would probably go under formal, and most people put jeans under casual (although it is debatable, about.com says that some companies consider dress jeans to be business casual).
I must admit that I’m laughing inside trying to anticipate whether or not some of those options above will be received better or worse.
C
catharina
Guest
Finally I’ve seen what others have seen.
I never look, never notice, the clothing of others.
Yet this past Sunday, finally I saw a shocker.
I was waiting after Mass so I could thank the extremely crippled
elderly priest who managed to say Mass for all of us. As a result,
I saw a teen-aged girl leaving Mass with two boys. The boys were
dressed WAY casually, the scruffy type of long shorts, but the girl
(on the plump side) was wearing short shorts - short shorts that were
caught way up her legs due to her plumpness. I didn’t think
I could/would ever see this kind of display - but I did and it shocked me.
She was dressed for the beach - not for church.
C
CMatt25
Guest
What you said was “people can dress as nicely for Mass as they would for a first date”. And I merely stated what I have worn on a first date.
And what I find antagonizing and therefore useless to me is when you confirm “what Elizabeth was referencing specifically was we witness to each other; Mass is not just a Jesus and me event. It is a conscious coming-together to worship and celebrate, in community.”
If you and Elizabeth or anyone else are making how folks dress as some sort of witnessing to each other or prerequisite for being able to come together as a community in worship, that’s not the type of worshiping community I would want to come to be part of.
M
MissRose73
Guest
I know I was dressed casually in the past for Mass especially as a teen and young adult. I have repented my past ways. But I realize now that I must dress decently and modestly for Mass & any other church related things too. The clothes I wear to the office as part of the business casual dress code are also appropriate for Mass too. I would much rather see people wearing the types of clothes I see in the office on a daily basis compared to a pair of jeans with a concert tee shirt & trainers/tennis shoes.
S
Sarabande
Guest
I venture to guess that before and after mass is when most people notice these things, unless it’s right in front of you during mass. It kind of hits you right in the face. Had she been wearing longer shorts that fit her properly and had the teenage boys been wearing nice shorts and not really scruffy ones, you probably would not have noticed them at all.
A few years back, I drove into the parking lot of my parish to attend mass. As we drove in, I saw one of my former music students with her family. It was a few months after I had resigned from teaching and got married. She was about 14. The family was dressed nicely as it was a special mass and the family didn’t usually attend mass at that parish. The reason why I noticed her (before I knew it was her) was because she wore a skirt that literally just barely covered her rear and when the wind kicked in, my husband and I got a full picture of her underwear and everything else underneath. There wasn’t much material to have to move. That was a shocker to both of us.
But I also was embarrassed for her and knew that she probably didn’t know any better since her mother and father were allowing her to wear a skirt that short. It actually would have been a nice outfit had the skirt been longer.In your experience and my experience, I think the situation was more about modesty, and with my former student it is also about what is an appropriate, modest “nice” outfit for church, as I believe both she and her parents thought she was wearing an appropriate, nice outfit for the special occasion at a mass.
S
Sarabande
Guest
I’d also like to add that I don’t think this is an uncommon line of thought amongst most people. I know that I thought that way myself when I was a teen and a woman in my early 20s. My mother, who was considered a very prude, old-fashioned and strict mother to us, didn’t even realize it when she allowed me to wear short skirts sometimes 4 inches above my knee (although never as short as what I mentioned and never would have allowed me to wear short-shorts). I think that there has been some sort of blurring of the lines of what is appropriate in all aspects of life… not just with clothes. This is for good and bad as I like how other aspects of life are less formal and that you don’t necessarily have to be viewed as eccentric or weird if you do things differently (which my family, including myself, was always thought of.) But I also think it has caused some confusion as to what can and cannot be done, said, worn, etc. I think we also have to remember that this way of thought is nothing new and has been working it’s way to what we see it as today for at least a couple of centuries when you read history or even just the fiction written during various time periods and see how the train of thought was leading in all aspects of life. In some regards, and in terms of this subject, it has gone too far to the left with regards to modest attire. But then, predictably, what is modest today? What is showing too much skin? I think most people innately knows, but then you do have people on either ends of the spectrum who would think otherwise.
R
ringil
Guest
OK, here is an example of clothing I did notice at mass. I noticed that the altar server was wearing jeans and tennis shoes under their alb (or whatever it’s called in the Maronite church.)
I do tend to think that servers should wear non-jeans for boys and something similar to girls but the tennis shoes did catch my attention. I felt myself taking notice and going “oh jeez that just looks silly” but then I caught myself and focussed back on the liturgy.
I do feel that EMHC’s and ushers should wear what is called “smart-casual” but as long as folks are adequately covered (including normal shorts) then everything is OK.
I do feel that some of the folks here bemoaming dress at mass are taking this a little further than “dress better it looks nice”. There is a touch of judgement, not by all but certainly by some and to state such judgements and then when confronted say “that’s not true” is being disengenous. Some folks here are implicitly or explicitly stating that dress is correlated with devotion to the mass and that’s not fair.
I do tend to think that servers should wear non-jeans for boys and something similar to girls but the tennis shoes did catch my attention. I felt myself taking notice and going “oh jeez that just looks silly” but then I caught myself and focussed back on the liturgy.
I do feel that EMHC’s and ushers should wear what is called “smart-casual” but as long as folks are adequately covered (including normal shorts) then everything is OK.
I do feel that some of the folks here bemoaming dress at mass are taking this a little further than “dress better it looks nice”. There is a touch of judgement, not by all but certainly by some and to state such judgements and then when confronted say “that’s not true” is being disengenous. Some folks here are implicitly or explicitly stating that dress is correlated with devotion to the mass and that’s not fair.
I
irishpatrick
Guest
Giving your best in every way means exactly that. Of course, Jesus reads our hearts and can see if we love him, yet how we choose to dress is a statement. It is also a point of witness to those around us to make every attempt to dress well when we go to Mass. Like it or not, perception is reality for many people, and when some people see lesser clothes being worn to Mass, then they will get the idea that Mass is nothing special (this especially applies to children). It is also clear that when a young person sees we will wear nice clothes to work, but we wear shorts and t-shirt to Mass, then we are showing them we think Mass is less important than Mass.
Jesus does not need us to dress well–we need to do that for the sake of our own souls, and we need to do that for those around us. Personal discipline, even in what we wear, is a very holy thing and it helps us remain steadfast in the Lord.
(btw, this is really not about you personally, it is about what people should do in general)
I don’t live in the Vatican, but I sure don’t get the sense there are a lot of people working there who wear shorts and t-shirts each day while being around or with the Pope.
It is obvious that “if” all a given person has is shorts and a t-shirt, then they are giving their best even though outwardly it looks like less.
It also strikes me that, as Catholics, we should be praying for the conversion of our fallen away brothers and sisters in Protestant faiths. It seems that one of the most amazing gifts the Lord gives is His Real Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, in the form of the Eucharistic species. However, if I were a Protestant walking into most Catholic Churches, I would be utterly unconvinced that the people there think they are receiving anything special at all. We are called to make the faith attractive to those around us, so that they feel compelled to enter the Church. We should look, act and live, in a way that sets us apart from the world. It should be obvious to those around us–not for showman’s type sake, but for the sake of truly being “set apart.”
I
irishpatrick
Guest
I have heard it said that it is good that certain people simply go to Mass (men, husbands, young people), and worrying about how they are dressed is not as important.
I agree clothes do not compare to actually go to Mass; however, I also believe we need to stop lowering the bar just because we want more people to go to Mass. This especially applies to some husbands and teenagers who somehow think they are doing us some incredible favor by going to Mass with their family, so they rebel by wearing “lazy” clothes.
I think never saying anything about that situation is simply a case of lowering the bar of expectations (which our culture has done in nearly every area of life).
How would any of us feel if the husbands and teenagers around us attending a Church Wedding dressed in jean shorts and t-shirt with some picture on it? Would that not be a sign of total disrespect for the couple and for all those in that Church? Most people would not let the bar of expectations be lowered in those cases–most people would find people dressed that way at a Wedding to be an insult. Yet, we are so desperate to see people go to Mass, that we eagerly lower the bar of expectations for those same people. I believe that is wrong–we should call people to a higher level–we should expect more of ourselves and of those around us!
We are Christians, we are called to look, act and live, in a way that sets us apart.
I agree clothes do not compare to actually go to Mass; however, I also believe we need to stop lowering the bar just because we want more people to go to Mass. This especially applies to some husbands and teenagers who somehow think they are doing us some incredible favor by going to Mass with their family, so they rebel by wearing “lazy” clothes.
I think never saying anything about that situation is simply a case of lowering the bar of expectations (which our culture has done in nearly every area of life).
How would any of us feel if the husbands and teenagers around us attending a Church Wedding dressed in jean shorts and t-shirt with some picture on it? Would that not be a sign of total disrespect for the couple and for all those in that Church? Most people would not let the bar of expectations be lowered in those cases–most people would find people dressed that way at a Wedding to be an insult. Yet, we are so desperate to see people go to Mass, that we eagerly lower the bar of expectations for those same people. I believe that is wrong–we should call people to a higher level–we should expect more of ourselves and of those around us!
We are Christians, we are called to look, act and live, in a way that sets us apart.
C
catharina
Guest
irishpatrick, your post reminded me of this:
Matthew 22:
1a Jesus again in reply spoke to them in parables, saying,
2“The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast* for his son. 3* He dispatched his servants to summon the invited guests to the feast, but they refused to come.
4A second time he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those invited: “Behold, I have prepared my banquet, my calves and fattened cattle are killed, and everything is ready; come to the feast.”’
5Some ignored the invitation and went away, one to his farm, another to his business.
6b The rest laid hold of his servants, mistreated them, and killed them.
7* The king was enraged and sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city.
8Then he said to his servants, ‘The feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy to come.
9Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find.’
10The servants went out into the streets and gathered all they found, bad and good alike,* and the hall was filled with guests.
11* But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment.
*12He said to him, ‘My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?’ But he was reduced to silence. 13 c Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’ **
14Many are invited, but few are chosen.”
Matthew 22:
1a Jesus again in reply spoke to them in parables, saying,
2“The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast* for his son. 3* He dispatched his servants to summon the invited guests to the feast, but they refused to come.
4A second time he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those invited: “Behold, I have prepared my banquet, my calves and fattened cattle are killed, and everything is ready; come to the feast.”’
5Some ignored the invitation and went away, one to his farm, another to his business.
6b The rest laid hold of his servants, mistreated them, and killed them.
7* The king was enraged and sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city.
8Then he said to his servants, ‘The feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy to come.
9Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find.’
10The servants went out into the streets and gathered all they found, bad and good alike,* and the hall was filled with guests.
11* But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment.
*12He said to him, ‘My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?’ But he was reduced to silence. 13 c Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’ **
14Many are invited, but few are chosen.”
I
irishpatrick
Guest
Good passage.
T
Tigg
Guest
Which is one of the reasons why many schools insist upon a dress code. They readily recognize that more casual clothing does not promote an environment for learning - that the “outer” is important for discipline, even of the mind. It sets the tone for a proper attitude regarding self-control.
S
Sarabande
Guest
I do agree that people who determine others’ devotion to the mass based on their attire is inappropriate and unfair. Although, if that is how they view it for themselves, I think that is fine. Those people just needs to be sure that they don’t put that standard on others.
For everything else you mentioned, it does seem like it is kind of difficult in today’s culture to figure out what “should be” appropriate dress outside of the modesty and clean aspect of it. (Although that can be a bit confusing as well in today’s world, as I mentioned in my previous post.) In regards to what you noticed with the altar servers and your thoughts on what EMHC’s, ushers, etc. should wear (which I would tend to agree with myself)… why would we hold them at a higher standard of dress if we don’t hold that standard for the rest of the congregation? Funny thing is that I also don’t hold that standard to people in the congregation either, so I am probably being partially hypocritical for having two “standards”.
I know for myself, I do dress better in my church/cantor uniform when I am cantoring whether or not I am in the back up in the organ loft where no one can see me or in the front where everyone can see me. I do so for a variety of reasons - some personal and some external. One of the external reasons is because it is expected of me by the priests at all the churches I have ever cantored at. (And I have cantored at more churches than I can count in many states and dioceses due to my job as a freelance musician) They almost always want anyone who is going to be performing some sort of function for mass to be “well dressed”. It doesn’t have to be fancy or a dress or suit and tie, but they don’t want jeans and sneakers or shorts, for instance. Although, the altar servers or anyone wearing an alb can get away with wearing shorts since they are usually covered up. Some have told me that they want us to set an example to the congregation for appropriate attire. We are being used to try to set a standard. So, even though they may never talk about it in their homilies or in the bulletins, they do it in more quiet and subtle ways, as I think they also do have this balancing act of not wanting to push people away from mass and not being misunderstood as being judgmental. I also think more of their concern is the modesty and cleanliness issue and less about if a man wears nice shorts or a pair of nice slacks, because whenever I do hear it broached by priests during a homily, it is usually always at the start of summer and a reminder to still dress modestly and appropriately for mass.
I
irishpatrick
Guest
This has nothing to do with the devotion or faith of those who dress down for Mass. It has simply to do with what is appropriate attire for Mass–nothing more needs to be assumed with this discussion.
The litmus test is simple (imo): What would people wear if they were invited to dinner with the Pope?
If a person would wear a dress or suit to have dinner with the Pope, but they think it is fine to wear jean shorts and a t-shirt to Mass, then perhaps that person’s priorities are bit off (just a thought).
The litmus test is simple (imo): What would people wear if they were invited to dinner with the Pope?
If a person would wear a dress or suit to have dinner with the Pope, but they think it is fine to wear jean shorts and a t-shirt to Mass, then perhaps that person’s priorities are bit off (just a thought).
C
catharina
Guest
Or perhaps, a great deal off!
I
irishpatrick
Guest
I was trying to be kind.
- Status