Sunday Best? Church Leaders Blush at "Casual Catholic" Dress

[CMatt25]

I commented on voiced attitudes (toward clothing, and toward pleas and suggestions from the appointed leaders of your Roman Catholic Church, which although is not visible in your identity, you admit on this thread that you belong to and attend Mass).

I questioned attitudes which fail to distinguish a significant difference between everyday occasions and the occasion of the Mass, and the inexplicable anger and defiance of those who do not wish to distinguish these different occasions and are anywhere from annoyed to outraged that their Church leaders would suggest a distinction, and that Catholic brothers and sisters would dare to respect and agree with those pleas by Church leaders. I addressed the attitudes, not the clothing. If you and anyone else on the thread felt truly fine with your own clothing, you would not have spent pages defending the particular pieces of clothing and demanding approval for those particular items. You would be at peace about it instead of constantly engaging in repetitive arguments.

Ok so you “commented” on our individual or collective attitudes about our reverence based on what clothing we wear to Mass. If you can see into the heart and judge attitude with regard to another’s reverence based on outerwear accurately enough to even begin to “comment” about it, then more power to you. But I think I’ll continue striving to leave the judging or “commentary” in regards to one’s attitude concerning their own reverence of God, to well, God, Elizabeth. But you proceed as you see fit.

And yes I admit I attend Mass. But no, per CAF policy I can not make visible in a profile identity, any such Catholic belonging.

In any case I am unaware of the Church leaders you speak of being in the diocese which leads the Catholics in my area. And as Annabelle Marie has stated, her priest has not addressed this in the manner in which the leaders in the OP did. I was unaware of an infallible doctrine of Mass attire. Church leaders, lets say in Canada, will also tell you for them, Elizabeth, HDofO are transferred to Sunday. So you are going to agree with them and choose not to attend Mass on a HDofO in your diocese because in another diocese the leaders follow a different policy? Of course you wouldn’t. Yet you give the impression if a priest lets say across the country sets a policy of no shorts in his parish, that all Catholics are to follow this policy.

And for the record, I engage such clothing threads so as to counter when views, as Annabelle Marie so distinctly put it, get out of hand. I am actually very much at peace with my choice of attire for Mass. And afterall supposedly all you truly wanted was for us to take a look at and judge our Mass attire for ourselves. So be at peace Elizabeth knowing I am at peace with mine. And I believe God is as well.

 

[CMatt25]

Once again, you fail to understand the difference between a generalized statement and an absolute statement, and also the difference between recommending something and requiring it.

Actually I understand quite well the difference between absolutes and generalized statements of belief or faith. But great now that I know you are merely recommending and not requiring, after much thought, self-examining and prayer, I reject any recommendations that I not wear such things as jeans or shorts or plain tee shirts and gym sneakers to Mass. Though someone has said something in this discussion about appropriate Mass attire in regards to being able to witness and come together as a worshiping community. But whether meant as a requirement, or recommendation in order for such a community to be a witnessing and worshiping community, I utterly reject that as well. Peace.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Why is the above quote addressed to me?
I’ve never mentioned jeans or dockers.
In fact, I wear athletic shoes on nearly all occasions since I have
rheumatoid arthritis and I have to wear them. On really healthy days,
I wear clogs. Why are you talking to me about jeans and dockers???

Here’s what I said:
Yes - the tone has dropped into a valley. Awful.
How can it be a problem when folks agree with Church leaders???

Why are you making my post into your issue about jeans?

I wasn’t per se…You brought up what Church leaders were saying…which got me to thinking…let’s examine what they say in this article. That’s all:shrug:

The jeans and dockers are what I’ve been talking about and I don’t see where they conflict with what Church leaders say…but that’s part of the larger discussion…not directed at you personally.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

(1) This isn’t Mass. This is a discussion forum.
(2) I haven’t “looked down upon you” on this discussion forum. Perhaps others have. If so, you should address them.

Hmm. (Yeah, we didn’t know that. )
Again with the defiance. I haven’t said anything about your clothes, but your attitude toward the Church statement persists. It’s Church leaders who care about what all of us wear, not specifically you or limited to you. They, like I, made general statements. If they don’t apply to you, no need to be defensive in such a personal way when no one here has gotten personal with you.

Have a nice day, though.

It is about a general attitude that people may take with them to Mass…and pervey on other people at Mass. And when I say people…that may or may not include you:shrug: I’m not talking about others here looking down on me. My concern again is people’s attitude about dress that would go beyond what some Church leaders (which I believe from the article is a few priest) have actually said. For example, I don’t find anything in what they said that would not allow modest, clean, dark jeans. So lets say someone I know goes to Mass is such jeans. There are people that may think that it’s not appropriate…beyond what Church leaders have said…may not know their circumstances…certainly can not know their heart…that may look down on them or worse yet say something to them. If that is you or not…I don’t know. But it has happened as my point about the couple who had the lady hand them the pamplet illustrates. Now I’m pretty sure that lady wasn’t you…

I pointed you out about what I wear because you stated that if I didn’t have a problem then I wouldn’t still be arguing…that is NOT true. I don’t have a problem with my clothes but with the attitude of some here (again…not necessarily you) that seems to go beyond what a few Church leaders have ACTUALLY said. So yes you did go a little personal in that remark but perhaps you don’t see that…doesn’t mean the reference isn’t there.

You have a nice day too!

 

[oneplustwo]

I don’t think this issue has much to do with what is going on interiorly with individual people, why they really dress the way they do. Clothing is an outward thing and we are a community of believers, so we have an obligation to consider not only our interior condition before God, but how others will see our outward condition.

My opinion: error on the side of being too dressed up, rather than being under-dressed. This is a generally accepted rule of thumb in all areas of society.

 

[jmcrae]

In your experience and my experience, I think the situation was more about modesty, and with my former student it is also about what is an appropriate, modest “nice” outfit for church, as I believe both she and her parents thought she was wearing an appropriate, nice outfit for the special occasion at a mass.

I honestly think that there is a great deal of confusion among the younger generation about what it means to “dress up.” I once asked a group of teens to “dress up” for Sunday Mass, and they all showed up in Hallowe’en costumes.

For a Confirmation class that I was teaching, I asked one of the Moms, who I knew was always dressed modestly and nicely, to give the welcome speech for the Bishop on the day of Confirmation. She arrived at the Church dressed as if for an evening out on the town - low cut, no sleeves, and short - the Bishop didn’t know where to look.

She told me afterwards, “I thought I should dress up for the Bishop.”

I didn’t want to make her feel bad, so all I said was, “you would have been just fine in your normal clothes - there was no need.”

I think we need to go back to showing pictures of people dressed for Church - you remember those ones, with the Mom, the Dad, the little boy, and the little girl, walking hand in hand to Church - we need to update that picture with modern-looking modest styles on the figures, to show people what it looks like, to “dress up for Church.”

 

[catharina]

I honestly think that there is a great deal of confusion among the younger generation about what it means to “dress up.” I once asked a group of teens to “dress up” for Sunday Mass, and they all showed up in Hallowe’en costumes.

For a Confirmation class that I was teaching, I asked one of the Moms, who I knew was always dressed modestly and nicely, to give the welcome speech for the Bishop on the day of Confirmation. She arrived at the Church dressed as if for an evening out on the town - low cut, no sleeves, and short - the Bishop didn’t know where to look.

She told me afterwards, “I thought I should dress up for the Bishop.”

I didn’t want to make her feel bad, so all I said was, “you would have been just fine in your normal clothes - there was no need.”

I think we need to go back to showing pictures of people dressed for Church - you remember those ones, with the Mom, the Dad, the little boy, and the little girl, walking hand in hand to Church - we need to update that picture with modern-looking modest styles on the figures, to show people what it looks like, to "dress up for Church."

Good idea.

 

[jmcrae]

Agreed. Someone can be almost deceptively well dressed for a low price

True. One of the best-dressed men in our parish is raising a family of six, working as a gas station attendant. I doubt he makes much more than the minimum wage, yet he manages to come to Sunday Mass in a clean, pressed suit and tie.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Maybe we need to go in small steps. I mean, right NOW, wouldn’t we all wish for everyone to be dressed modestly and decently? Now one man’s shorts might be long shorts, he might wear long socks and be pretty ‘covered’, and so long as the shorts aren’t dirty, ripped, or hanging down with 2 inches of thong underwear showing, he’s all right. And the woman in slacks and polo is perfectly well covered and modest, as opposed to the woman dressed in an expensive but low cut, high rise, slinky see-through ‘dress’.

Once we have everybody on the same page with modest and decent, regardless of whether we feel we should be dressing our ‘best’, THEN comes the effort to think about going a step further.

And then it will come individually, but I think it will come, once we are all in agreement that whether it’s a suit or long, clean shorts, whether it is a skirt or dress or pants, provided it covers the person and is clean and not sexualized or see-through, it’s modest ENOUGH for Church.
Going beyond ‘modest enough’ to 'dressing for the Lord as King" can come once we are all there at MODEST!

Because once the majority of the people here who do dress modestly and appropriately feel that they aren’t being ‘forced’ to dress up or SHAMED for what is truly modest . . .

and once the minority of the people here who dress a little more ‘up’ feel that they aren’t going to be sneered at as hypocrites or stuck up snobs. . .

THEN the minority of the people who DO dress inappropriately --dirty clothes when they have clean ones available; shirts or hats advocating violence, vulgarity, hatred and commercialism when there are shirts and hats which do NOT show these things available; too short, tight, sexualized, see-through, feminine wear when there are well-fitting, ‘unsexualized’, opaque and appropriate clothes available; then THESE people will be facing, if you will, a ‘united front’ which shows a broad spectrum of appropriate and modest wear acceptable for Church. And it will be much easier for Joe Sweat Suit, when the priest approaches him to say, “Joe, the sweat suit is too casual for something as important to you as Mass, look at the modest yet casual outfit of most men here to see an idea of the kinds of things you might consider wearing to give good example of respect for the Lord, yourself, and others at Mass” --to look and see the fellow in the clean jeans and polo and say, “Yes, I can do that”.

Will he later choose to go even further to slacks, or suits? Perhaps. At least he won’t sink further into the slough of gym shorts and wife beaters for the summer Mass!

 

[CMatt25]

True. One of the best-dressed men in our parish is raising a family of six, working as a gas station attendant. I doubt he makes much more than the minimum wage, yet he manages to come to Sunday Mass in a clean, pressed suit and tie.

And that is absolutely great if that is his choice and is what he believes he needs to do to show reverence to Jesus. The problem arises when folks go around using secular norms for Jesus telling everyone else they should dress up on the outside to show what is in their heart for Jesus on their inside. Or to sit in the pew attempting to make a judgment of another’s attitude toward Jesus based on the outside. Or suggesting clothing somehow affects what is to be a witnessing worshiping community.

All that does imho is add to the burden of following Jesus in the Catholic Church for some of those folks in their jeans or shorts or tee shirts or gym shoes or sandals.

Yet Jesus tells us near the end of Matt 11 that the yoke He gives us to wear is easy and the burden He puts onto is is light. He even had something to say to the Pharisees about tying things onto people’s backs.

And He might have even had sandals on Himself when He said it.

 

[CMatt25]

Now one man’s shorts might be long shorts, he might wear long socks and be pretty 'covered…

And it will be much easier for Joe Sweat Suit, when the priest approaches him to say, “Joe, the sweat suit is too casual for something as important to you as Mass, look at the modest yet casual outfit of most men here to see an idea of the kinds of things you might consider wearing to give good example of respect for the Lord, yourself, and others at Mass”

I wear those little white anklet socks, Tantum, with my plain, short sleeved (not sleeveless)tee shirt, long shorts and gym shoes. So I’m not covered enough for you?

The day a priest approaches me to suggest I dress differently than I do, is the day I find another church to worship Jesus in.

 

[ChiRho]

The day a priest approaches me to suggest I dress differently than I do, is the day I find another church to worship Jesus in.

You are very unwilling to take even hypothetical correction from a priest. He is a man of God and should at least be heard out, even if you don’t agree with his reasoning. You are really so sensitive that you would change churches because a priest suggested you wear something less casual?

 

[jmcrae]

And He might have even had sandals on Himself when He said it.

I bet they were real leather, and well cared for - possibly even polished.

We also read that the soldiers gambled for Jesus’ clothes, so I’m guessing they weren’t cheap or slummy-looking.

 

[Elizabeth502]

And that is absolutely great if that is his choice and is what he believes he needs to do to show reverence to Jesus.

…back to the Straw Man of “need” (i.e., requirement, obligation) again. Why would you think that it was that man’s assumption that he “needed” to wear a suit to “show reverence?” He clearly chose to, wanted to. He had the option to wear different clothes, but chose to select his best outfit for the occasion of the week that is not interchangeable with other occasions, wihch is qualitatively different from occasions which assume other clothing. He chose to mirror his outward appearance with his inward disposition. He wasn’t “yoked” to do that. So your raising of the words of Jesus about the Pharisees’ yoking of others is off-topic, because there’s no evidence that this gas station attendant felt “yoked.”

That is the fundamental Straw Man of all these arguments: that when people dress ever so differently at Mass than for all the other 167 hours of the week, they are “yoked” to doing so, they “need” to do so, feel “required” to do so (by some invisible social force), and worse – are “judging” those who do not do so.

No: They choose to correspond the outer with the inner, to have their clothes reflect what’s in their hearts.

Hmmm.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

these type of conversations tend to always gravitate twoards extreme ends of the spectrum when it comes to dress

either the person is half naked almost, or they’re wearing a 3 piece suit or a very formal/modest dress

I tend to take a middle of the road sensible approach to Mass, and yes I often attend the EF Mass.

I am a male.

I usually wear a button down dress shirt, colored or white, with no pattern, with an undershirt or tank top under it, buttoned completely except for the top button, along with khaki dress pants with brown casual shoes, or black pants with black dress shoes.

for special occassions such as Easter, Holy Thursday, or other special feast days I may wear a sport coat and tie. sometimes I will wear the outfit above with a tie and possibly a sweater if it’s cold out.

I think this is pretty reasonable. A button down dress shirt, khaki pants and casual shoes are definitely affordable at Walmart by pretty much almost anyone. I have seen a homeless person trying to get a job wearing this outfit before.

This is also a common outfit to wear to work if you do a more white collar type job.

I think this is reasonable to ask of people to wear at Church on Sundays. Daily Mass I think jeans and a polo are acceptable or jeans with a button down short sleeved shirt. I must say I don’t think I would ever wear any kind of shorts or just a t-shirt to Mass, I think that’s just too casual for Church or work. Just my two cents.

~Josh

 

[catharina]

these type of conversations tend to always gravitate twoards extreme ends of the spectrum when it comes to dress

either the person is half naked almost, or they’re wearing a 3 piece suit or a very formal/modest dress

I tend to take a middle of the road sensible approach to Mass, and yes I often attend the EF Mass.

I am a male.

I usually wear a button down dress shirt, colored or white, with no pattern, with an undershirt or tank top under it, buttoned completely except for the top button, along with khaki dress pants with brown casual shoes, or black pants with black dress shoes.
Agree this is fine dress for Mass,
but all fine restaurants would consider
you as dressed too casully.

for special occassions such as Easter, Holy Thursday, or other special feast days I may wear a sport coat and tie. sometimes I will wear the outfit above with a tie and possibly a sweater if it’s cold out.

I think this is pretty reasonable. A button down dress shirt, khaki pants and casual shoes are definitely affordable at Walmart by pretty much almost anyone. I have seen a homeless person trying to get a job wearing this outfit before.

This is also a common outfit to wear to work if you do a more white collar type job.

I think this is reasonable to ask of people to wear at Church on Sundays. Daily Mass I think jeans and a polo are acceptable or jeans with a button down short sleeved shirt. I must say I don’t think I would ever wear any kind of shorts or just a t-shirt to Mass, I think that’s just too casual for Church or work. Just my two cents.

~Josh

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Agree this is fine dress for Mass,
but all fine restaurants would consider
you as dressed too casully.

I must eat at different restaurants then you…I’ve NEVER been at a restaurant that this would be considered too casual…and that includes at the top of Mandalay Bay, where you had to be a member to get into…I had black dockers…and they went and got a black napkin so I wouldn’t get lint on the black dockers. Hey…someone else was paying and choose there otherwise I wouldn’t have been there…

Or we are just more casual out here in Oregon:shrug:

 

[catharina]

I must eat at different restaurants then you…I’ve NEVER been at a restaurant that this would be considered too casual…and that includes at the top of Mandalay Bay, where you had to be a member to get into…I had black dockers…and they went and got a black napkin so I wouldn’t get lint on the black dockers. Hey…someone else was paying and choose there otherwise I wouldn’t have been there…

Or we are just more casual out here in Oregon:shrug:

I have no idea what gones on in Oregon.

I was speaking to a man and pointed out the obvious:
fine restaurants usually won’t serve men who are without tie and jacket.

Never meant to insult you
or Oregon. Oregon is Oregon.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I wear those little white anklet socks, Tantum, with my plain, short sleeved (not sleeveless)tee shirt, long shorts and gym shoes. So I’m not covered enough for you?

The day a priest approaches me to suggest I dress differently than I do, is the day I find another church to worship Jesus in.

I’m in a cooler climate, Matt. . .it would be a rare day, particularly now I have to head back to BrrrMont, that any man would wear shorts because it was just ‘too hot’. If you’re in a warmer place like Bermuda or something where shorts are always worn and long pants are not, I imagine it would be different.

And some men have really hairy legs, Matt, that are extremely 'distracting. However, a lot have legs with minimal hair and a fairly tan color that kind of ‘blend into’ the line of the shorts and aren’t distracting at all.

So I’m not judging you, Matt, but YOU’RE the one who says if somebody even SUGGESTS you consider a different style than the one you like, you’ll leave that particular church (probably just the building!). Wow. Now that to me is an example of somebody who is as ‘cast iron rigid’ in upholding the ‘casual’ style as somebody who upholds the ‘dressier’ style.

Why then do you act as though the ‘dressier types’ are all wrong, rigid, and mean, when you yourself are clinging just as rigidly and then some to YOUR preference of dress? Don’t you see that your response is exactly what you’re accusing them of doing ‘wrong?’

 

[CMatt25]

You are very unwilling to take even hypothetical correction from a priest. He is a man of God and should at least be heard out, even if you don’t agree with his reasoning. You are really so sensitive that you would change churches because a priest suggested you wear something less casual?

It wouldn’t be hypothetical if he actually approached me. And it has nothing to do with being “so sensitive”. To me it has to do with what truly matters to God. So absolutely I would change churches if this man thought the clothing I’ve described wearing suggested that my heart for Jesus was not sincere enough. I’ve already changed churches when a priest said in his homily his answer to the poor is to get a job and he actually did suggest in his same homily to dress up. So I’d have no problem doing it again.