Sweden Moves to Ban Homeschooling for Religious or Philosophical Reasons

[WillieWonka]

An illiterate can provide a child the ability to learn to read through outsourcing, tutor or other means. An illiterate would not be able to teach something they do not know, but they can certainly use other means and be within the law, while providing their children with an education. That parent should be held to the same reasonable regulations as a literate parent. If the illiterate parent is able to do so, they should be able to, if they can’t then they would be accountable to the laws of their state.

I have answered many of your questions while you consistantly ignore the one question I ask you. I’ll ask it again.

What is your position on BANNING homeschooling for RELIGIOUS reasons (the topic of this thread)?

If the education is not happening in MD the parents are given a warning, if it is still not happening, the child must by law be enrolled in school. I think this is reasonable.

Is it acceptable to steal the God given right of God fearing law abiding citizens for the sake of HOARDS of drunken homeschool parents? How does BANNING homeschooling for RELIGIOUS reasons address the cataclysmic problem of drunken homeschool parents anyway? Unless you are equating piety with drunkeness?.

Rome has spoken out against socialism. Rome has spoken clearly that parents are the primary educators of their children. Sorry if you don’t like it.

Again, what is your position on the TOPIC of this thread?

1. We agree an illiterate cannot teach a kid to read on a one-on-one basis.
2. We agree home schooled kids who are not being educated should be enrolled in school by the state.
3. It is not acceptable to steal the God given right of God fearing law abiding citizens for the sake of HOARDS of drunken homeschool parents.
4. I don’t know how BANNING homeschooling for RELIGIOUS reasons address the cataclysmic problem of drunken homeschool parents.
5. I am not equating piety with drunkeness.

 

[WillieWonka]

Well that will be impossible Willie, everyone is different. Just because a particular group of people homeschool does not mean they all agree on everything. There are liberal, conservative, religious, irreverent, pagan, natural family living, mainstream, gay, straight etc etc parents that homeschool. Good luck trying to put them in a box and label it. lol When it comes to homeschooling you will find parents as diverse as if you looked at the parents of a public school student.

What is your position on BANNING homeschool for RELIGIOUS reasons? You know the ones who impose thier religion on their children?

I agree there will be varying answers. That’s why I ask the question. It is to see where those various limits are.

We know where you and 1catholic stand. Maybe we will learn more by asking.

I don’t care about home schooling parents or their rights. I don’t care about their religion or philosophy. It’s OK with me if Sweden wants to go down the path outlined in the article. It’s OK with me if they don’ t. I don’t care.

All I care about is the legal right of the kids to an education.

 

[1catholic]

That’s why I ask the question. It is to see where those various limits are.

We know where you and 1catholic stand. Maybe we will learn more by asking.

I don’t care about home schooling parents or their rights. I don’t care about their religion or philosophy. It’s OK with me if Sweden wants to go down the path outlined in the article. It’s OK with me if they don’ t. I don’t care.

All I care about is the legal right of the kids to an education.

I don’t know your religious beliefs or what not, but isn’t it important that ppl have the right to teach their kids (within our prescribed outlines, more or less). Otherwise the government monopolizes education pure and simple.

 

[Corki]

So, is it reasonable for the state of MD to prevent a parent from home schooling if that parent is illiterate, drunk, doped, or negligent, and the kid’s education is not happening?

It would NOT be acceptable to leave a child in a home where the parents are drunk, doped or negligent regardless of where that kid is being educated. Sending the child to public school doesn’t make the home environment any better. That would be very unreasonable.

People have been very reluctant to acknowledge it is proper for the state to prevent home schooling when the home schooling parent is not educating the kids.

I’m not sure everyone supports some regulation.

I support very minimal regulation such as exists in Texas. In Texas all private schools, including home schools, are required to teach Math, Reading and Civics. That’s it. There are no home visits, required testing, or other hoops to jump through.

IF (and its a very big IF) the parent is not capable of educating the kids, the state might have an obligation to insist on supplementation or support. It is not proper for the state to completely prevent homeschooling even if the parent is not going to be a good teacher. And it is not reasonable for the state to force a parent to put a child in the public school system if the parent doesn’t want the child to be there.

How does one use standardized tests to enforce a certain level of education for home schooled kids?

You can’t use standardized tests effectively for homeschooling other than to measure the extent that the curriculum at home overlaps with a traditional school curriculum. If a parent choses a homeschooling curriculum that is close to a public school curriculum, the test might be a good measure. But if, for example, the parent choses a different curriculum or no curriculum (as in unschooling) the test will be completely inaccurate about the level of education. It will give a rough idea about the skill level in certain areas but that is only loosely corelated with the “level of education”

Is it acceptable for the state to prevent home schooling in individual cases where such standardized tests show that level education is consistently not happening?

No because of the limitations of standardized testing. A test that measures how much education is “happening” does not exist. So the state would be making an invalid inference based on a test that was not even designed for that purose.

 

[1catholic]

It would NOT be acceptable to leave a child in a home where the parents are drunk, doped or negligent regardless of where that kid is being educated. Sending the child to public school doesn’t make the home environment any better. That would be very unreasonable.

I support very minimal regulation such as exists in Texas. In Texas all private schools, including home schools, are required to teach Math, Reading and Civics. That’s it. There are no home visits, required testing, or other hoops to jump through.

IF (and its a very big IF) the parent is not capable of educating the kids, the state might have an obligation to insist on supplementation or support. It is not proper for the state to completely prevent homeschooling even if the parent is not going to be a good teacher. And it is not reasonable for the state to force a parent to put a child in the public school system if the parent doesn’t want the child to be there.

You can’t use standardized tests effectively for homeschooling other than to measure the extent that the curriculum at home overlaps with a traditional school curriculum. If a parent choses a homeschooling curriculum that is close to a public school curriculum, the test might be a good measure. But if, for example, the parent choses a different curriculum or no curriculum (as in unschooling) the test will be completely inaccurate about the level of education. It will give a rough idea about the skill level in certain areas but that is only loosely corelated with the “level of education”

No because of the limitations of standardized testing. A test that measures how much education is “happening” does not exist. So the state would be making an invalid inference based on a test that was not even designed for that purose.

Good point about the testing

 

[WillieWonka]

I don’t know your religious beliefs or what not, but isn’t it important that ppl have the right to teach their kids (within our prescribed outlines, more or less). Otherwise the government monopolizes education pure and simple.

I’m not sure what a government monopoly of education means. In the US there are thousands of school districts, most manaaged by elected school boards. That’s not a monopoly. It is government, but there’s a wide range available for a variety of approaches and curricula.

 

[1catholic]

I don’t mean in the US. I might not have been clear, but what I meant is when you said you don’t care if they drop hsing. The government already has plenty of control over private schools, and you pay a ton to go to one. If parents can’t do private school and are capable of home schooling, don’t they have the right, intrinsically, being the parents and primary caregivers.

 

[WillieWonka]

It would NOT be acceptable to leave a child in a home where the parents are drunk, doped or negligent regardless of where that kid is being educated. Sending the child to public school doesn’t make the home environment any better. That would be very unreasonable.

I support very minimal regulation such as exists in Texas. In Texas all private schools, including home schools, are required to teach Math, Reading and Civics. That’s it. There are no home visits, required testing, or other hoops to jump through.

IF (and its a very big IF) the parent is not capable of educating the kids, the state might have an obligation to insist on supplementation or support. It is not proper for the state to completely prevent homeschooling even if the parent is not going to be a good teacher. And it is not reasonable for the state to force a parent to put a child in the public school system if the parent doesn’t want the child to be there.

You can’t use standardized tests effectively for homeschooling other than to measure the extent that the curriculum at home overlaps with a traditional school curriculum. If a parent choses a homeschooling curriculum that is close to a public school curriculum, the test might be a good measure. But if, for example, the parent choses a different curriculum or no curriculum (as in unschooling) the test will be completely inaccurate about the level of education. It will give a rough idea about the skill level in certain areas but that is only loosely corelated with the “level of education”

No because of the limitations of standardized testing. A test that measures how much education is “happening” does not exist. So the state would be making an invalid inference based on a test that was not even designed for that purose.

• “It is not proper for the state to completely prevent homeschooling even if the parent is not going to be a good teacher. And it is not reasonable for the state to force a parent to put a child in the public school system if the parent doesn’t want the child to be there.”*

See. Some folks would sacrifice the kids.

 

[Pug]

I agree with the others that there would be problems involved with standardized testing. A child (or any adult) may be very highly educated in some topics and not in others. Perhaps they have studied the Brothers K, but not Shakespeare, for example.

 

[WillieWonka]

I don’t mean in the US. I might not have been clear, but what I meant is when you said you don’t care if they drop hsing. The government already has plenty of control over private schools, and you pay a ton to go to one. If parents can’t do private school and are capable of home schooling, don’t they have the right, intrinsically, being the parents and primary caregivers.

I agree good school is necessary. However, I have no reason to think home schooling is necessary for that. Hence, I don’t care. With all those different states and school districts, I don’t care about government control either.

 

[WillieWonka]

I agree with the others that there would be problems involved with standardized testing. A child (or any adult) may be very highly educated in some topics and not in others. Perhaps they have studied the Brothers K, but not Shakespeare, for example.

How about reading and math?

 

[mpi]

There are ways to make sure a child is getting a good education at home. Required testing, etc, without taking away the parents’ right to oversee it.

You don’t get it. THERE WILL BE NO REQUIRED TESTING BY THE STATE IN MY HOUSE!

I want freedom to provide the religious education I want to my children. THERE WILL BE NO INTERFERENCE!

 

[Pug]

How about reading and math?

Regarding math, it can be taught in a different order than it frequently is. For example, you can introduce the concepts of calculus before trigonometry, or you could spend a significant amount of time on statistics. Presuming they allow for variation, it can be tested well enough to know if someone is bothering to educate the child. The parent could tell the state their learning objectives for that year and the state could test on them with some validity. Also, I’m assuming a parent will teach the child standard notation for the country in question. I would teach my child standard notation, since I highly value the ability to communicate with colleagues/others. I might not agree with the state, though, if they required me to teach each child of mine how to do geometry proofs (that two column format with statement and reason). That is a curriculum decision they ought to respect. I would also be angry with the state if they required me to teach a set algorithm for addition. I will teach whichever algorithm suits the child.

Although I am familiar with the math standards used in primary education, I am not as knowledgeable about how they test grade level with reading materials. It depends on vocabulary, word length, sentence length, etc. I’m not qualified to know how well such testing would work across various racial/cultural/curriculum groups or whatnot. I *assume *they can account for this problem, though I am aware that they often fail to do this well. If you have a child who has been taught to read Hebrew, of course it is not fair to only test them in English. Perhaps, though, we are assuming a mandated language of instruction?

I suspect testing standards would be easier if the parents were forced to a set curriculum. I’m not sure I approve of that, though. I would not want to be forced to use a set math curriculum.

 

[Pug]

You don’t get it. THERE WILL BE NO REQUIRED TESTING BY THE STATE IN MY HOUSE!

I want freedom to provide the religious education I want to my children. THERE WILL BE NO INTERFERENCE!

Since we are talking about education as a whole, and not just religious education, I tend to think you will not remain free as you wish. If the number of children being home schooled becomes high, the state is going to take some interest in what is going on. That is the nature of the state around here. I can easily see a state mandating that you prove your child can add via some form or test. That seems eminently possible.

I know it is off-topic, but it is hard to give your own kids an education at home in place of CCD classes (uh, that is like Sunday School or religious education classes for the non-Catholics who may be reading along), and that is coming from the Catholic Church which understands the primacy of parents in education. The state is not so interested in understanding.

 

[CGDouglas]

Is it your intention to quote me saying all home schooling parents are illiterate? I note the word “all” is enclosed in single quotes. Can you clairfy before I respond?

I get the very implication from the factor that I rarely see you give any form of praise for those whom are capable of homeschooling and either hide them or reduce them amongst the many ‘illiterates’ you seem to state, it does appear to me that you seem to be targeting quite a large percentage of those seeking homeschooling as ‘illiterate’.

On the other hand, I rarely hear negativity about the state sanctioned schools themselves, and mainly a large volume of praise.

This is my personal interpretation where ‘all’ seems to merge.

God Bless.

Chris.

 

[Sarabande]

You don’t get it. THERE WILL BE NO REQUIRED TESTING BY THE STATE IN MY HOUSE!

I want freedom to provide the religious education I want to my children. THERE WILL BE NO INTERFERENCE!

Is each state different with their requirements for homeschooling? Do some states just allow parents to not teach certain subjects like math, for instance? In PA where I’m from, they have the Pennsylvania Homeschoolers Accreditation Agency and offer exams for graduation so that a child’s homeschool education would be recognized by colleges, homeschool diplomas, AP on-line classes, Honors courses, information on tutoring, etc. Basically, parents still have teach specific subjects along with any other subject a parents would like to teach - like religion. Children must have the proper knowledge of the required specific subjects in order to pass those standardized tests for homeschoolers. I know that if a parent can’t teach everything required, you can get tutors, etc.

phaa.org/
pahomeschoolers.com/

 

[CGDouglas]

Also ironically for the idea that public schools will protect the child from illiteracy and force of abusive parents, drugged or drunk:

It doesn’t stop the very thing happening to students in public schools.

Do you think these were influenced by the ‘drunk’, ‘doped’ parents that you seem to largely associate with homeschooling parents?

God Bless.

Chris.

 

[maryjk]

Is each state different with their requirements for homeschooling? Do some states just allow parents to not teach certain subjects like math, for instance? In PA where I’m from, they have the Pennsylvania Homeschoolers Accreditation Agency and **offer exams for graduation so that a child’s homeschool education would be recognized by colleges, homeschool diplomas, AP on-line classes, Honors courses, information on tutoring, etc. ** Basically, parents still have teach specific subjects along with any other subject a parents would like to teach - like religion. Children must have the proper knowledge of the required specific subjects in order to pass those standardized tests for homeschoolers. I know that if a parent can’t teach everything required, you can get tutors, etc.

phaa.org/
pahomeschoolers.com/

You do know that many colleges and universities do not require a diploma? Simply have your child take the SAT or ACT and go from there. Your child doesn’t need anything from the state to have his or her home schooling recongnized.

Each state sets its own rules for home schooling. The rules can be found at
hslda.org/laws/default.asp

As you can see, the association ranks states by color. PA is a red state, they are a state with “high regulation.” I used to live there. They wanted a certified letter when I moved, or they would send out a truant officer to my old house. I now live in a yellow state with “low regulation.”

 

[Sarabande]

You do know that many colleges and universities do not require a diploma? Simply have your child take the SAT or ACT and go from there. Your child doesn’t need anything from the state to have his or her home schooling recongnized.

Each state sets its own rules for home schooling. The rules can be found at
hslda.org/laws/default.asp

As you can see, the association ranks states by color. PA is a red state, they are a state with “high regulation.” I used to live there. They wanted a certified letter when I moved, or they would send out a truant officer to my old house. I now live in a yellow state with “low regulation.”

Thanks. That’s why I asked. I didn’t know what the rules and regulations were for each state and we are considering homeschool for our children. I didn’t realize that about certain colleges. All of the universities I and many of my friends applied to needed to see that we had a diploma (or at least something that showed we had graduated and didn’t drop out) plus our SAT scores.

So, it does seem, though, that if we do homeschool our child, we will still need to do at least teach them what is necessary to pass SAT and ACT, correct?

PA must not have been as stringent back in the early/mid 90s when my cousins were being homeschooled since their mother did nothing to teach them. Neither one could do college, both got into drugs and alcohol and the one had a baby at 15. They are ok now, but it took many years to get them back on track and a lot of resentment especially towards their mother.
But I actually like how PA is a high regulation state today for homeschooling.

 

[WillieWonka]

You don’t get it. THERE WILL BE NO REQUIRED TESTING BY THE STATE IN MY HOUSE!

I want freedom to provide the religious education I want to my children. THERE WILL BE NO INTERFERENCE!

There probably won’t be any if you do an adequate job of educating the kids and live in astate with few regulations. That’s certainly the easiest way to handle it.

But there will be if you don’t, and there’s not a thing you an do about it.

And there will be interference if the state mandates testing and you refuse. Again, you have no choice.