Syro Malabar girl marry Marthomite guy with out converting! PLEASE ANSWER!

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I have explained these to clear your mind if want to listen and understand.
Moreover being a Mar Thomite my explanation on our position should not be discarded to hold on to your one way perception and conclusions about us. It will be as silly like muslims accisinging the christians for worshipping 3 different Gods while Christians try to explain them that it is the one and only Almighty God manifested in Holy Trinity - for an example.
Except we all know marthoma history, it’s not like the marthoma reformation split happened millenia ago - it was about 200 yrs… with British support, it’s not that hard to find unbiased primary sources…
It is not magic ‘the laying of hand’. You certainly need to peer through the line of Marthomites with more open mind. You will definitely find it if you really want to see it. Prejudice doesn’t help. Mar Thomites apostolic line has been discussed in my previous posts. So it does not need to be explained again. You can refer to it or do a fresh research on it.
It isn’t my view or your view, I am stating to you the Catholic and Orthodox position on Marthoma lineage - you can argue your case to an Ecumenical Council or the holy Fathers of the Church.
The whole purpose of my write up was only to help the person who had posted the original query – So that she can listen to the other side of the story from a Mar Thomite.
That’s fine, but we don’t have to accept it simply because you are marthomite.
I have advised that it is better to marry from the same church and to avoid possible conflicts. If the church is of greater importance to the her, then she should have opted for a boy of her own church. But not date a Mar Thomite boy and try to change the boy to her church by converting him to catholic faith as if we are not Christians.
You are not Catholic Christians, whats wrong with trying to convert him if she feels that Catholicism is Christianity in its fullness?
Any self respecting Marthomite boy would resist it, unless he want to sacrifice his dignity for his love to the girl.
I don’t know any Marthomites that know marthoma theology, accept it fully, and are committed to their church - most, in the US at least, attend evangelical and non-denominational churches whenever possible, have no allegiance to Marthoma church, or really know it’s teachings (if there are any definitive teachings).
I don’t know what you mean by ‘low-church Anglicans’. Is it a derogatory term? May be you can give me an insight to that.
Its not derogatory. The Anglican church is divided among low, high, and broad church. Low is evangelical, they hate the smells and bells, and some of their ministers prefer not to be called father, etc - they do not pray to saints or the deceased (for the most part) - e.g. CSI/CNI -look up the “Sydney Anglicans”, highchurch looks almost Catholic - see the Church of England… broad is similar to Episcopal Church (USA). The low-church missionaries are ones who came to Kerala and split the Malankara non-Catholic church into factions.
 
Speak for the marthomites, the Orthodox teaching is equivalent to the Catholic, they just don’t use the term Transubstantiation - the marthomites outright deny it. I suggest you do a side-by-side study of the Orthodox and marthoma Qurbono - there is a lot more missing in the latter - especially the priestly prayers.

Orthodox do not believe change of material - that bread becoming flesh, wine becoming blood literally. Orthodox church believe it is equivalent to the the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ by blessing it through Holyspirit. Marthoma Church also believe the same. The revision of texts do not ascribe to change of this undrstanding.

I have attended, in fact I have spoken to various bishops and priests regarding the Marthoma theology - it is basically dependent on whoever you speak to - there is no coherent theology.

If you have then you should not disputed my words. Liturgy is modified - I agreed. Can you explain me with the changes Mar Thoma church having - how it affected the sanctity of Holy qurbana and ceased to be the Flesh and Blood of Jesus Christ.

When Jesus administered it they were not that complicated.

It has everything to do with what Christ taught - you say the “original” tradition is the way Marthoma practices - how then, logically, is it that NO OTHER Orthodox or Catholic or Apostolic Church holds the same view - only lowchurch protestants hold the marthoma view? Did Christ teach conflicting and opposing teaching to his Apostles?

Minutes of synod of Uadyamperoor might give light on these.This what I have understood. Yet to do a research on the nestorian churches comparing the St. Thomas Christians. If you have some material you may share those.

Again low Church protestants - please explain the term.

In fact you oppose it, and do in fact object - why else start a different church?

No we do not oppose to respect Mother mary or Saints. That is nonsense to argue about it. Causes of split of the church was well detailed in my post. refer to it. It is not disrespect to the Mother of Jesus or Saints. Doctrine of intercession prayer is a different issue.
I understand perfectly, however I completely disagree.

I am happy that you understand it. You have all rights to disagree. So are we.
I don’t simply accept your version of the story simply because you are marthoma

You may maintain your position - but as I said before it is better not to dwell too much in finding differences but to see agreements.
 
Orthodox do not believe change of material - that bread becoming flesh, wine becoming blood literally. Orthodox church believe it is equivalent to the the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ by blessing it through Holyspirit. Marthoma Church also believe the same. The revision of texts do not ascribe to change of this undrstanding.
I suggest you restudy the subject
If you have then you should not disputed my words. Liturgy is modified - I agreed. Can you explain me with the changes Mar Thoma church having - how it affected the sanctity of Holy qurbana and ceased to be the Flesh and Blood of Jesus Christ.
When Jesus administered it they were not that complicated.
?? The Marthoma church doesn’t even teach that it is Body and Blood - it is left to the individual to decide…
Minutes of synod of Uadyamperoor might give light on these. This what I have understood. Yet to do a research on the nestorian churches comparing the St. Thomas Christians. If you have some material you may share those.
What minutes do you find to be supporting your view? It is on you to prove your case - mine is proven by simply looking at the teachings of all the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches.
No we do not oppose to respect Mother mary or Saints. That is nonsense to argue about it. Causes of split of the church was well detailed in my post. refer to it. It is not disrespect to the Mother of Jesus or Saints. Doctrine of intercession prayer is a different issue.
We are not discussing "respect’ but veneration…
 
It has everything to do with what Christ taught
Can you give a quote of teaching by Jesus about intercessary prayers through the Saints and its part in the salvation of a soul. I am learning - that is why - (I have certain understanding of the intercessary prayers. But it is optional not the must for salvation according to my understanding.)
 
I suggest you restudy the subject

I wiil try to study the subject to see if my understanding should change about it. But you did not reply to the point.

?? The Marthoma church doesn’t even teach that it is Body and Blood - it is left to the individual to decide…

No. Marthoma teaches it is so. but not material change. It is blessed to be the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit.

What minutes do you find to be supporting your view? It is on you to prove your case - mine is proven by simply looking at the teachings of all the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches.

I have read quoting from them. But have to get hold of the minutes entirely. I was wondwering if you have, you can share.

We are not discussing "respect’ but veneration…To simplify the issue Mother Mary and all Saints are venerable to Mar Thomites. Intercessory prayer is different topic.

God Bless 🙂
 
Maliankara is a town, it still exists outside Cochi - hows that for fiction?? Yeah, yeah, Trisshur trisshur thrissur - they were isolated in a bubble and allowed to exist without influence by anyone other than its own - I wonder how St. Thomas was able to come there to convert them to Christianity in the first place - your theories being so wild… is it also fiction that “Malabar” is a persianized/arabacized word??
Every true native of present Kerala should wake up and smell the coffee about the influence European colonial trader made churches have had in inventing history of locals to suit their own purposes. If, natives who cared for real history had the courage to admit that the Hindu king of Cochin was a mere puppet in the hands of European traders since 1500, and European traders had a run of his kingdom, a lot of real history, with the good and bad, can be salvaged. If Germans can own up to their dreaded Nazi past and move on, so can all natives of Kerala who were really victims of colonial traders, with their cooperation because they stood to benefit from the cooperation, learn from the mistakes of the past, so that they don’t repeat the same mistakes of having others do the thinking for them. The Dutch were able to conquer Cochin only because some petty ruler from south of Cochin wanted to conquer the international trade base in Cochin and sought Dutch help to do it. Although the Dutch were world masters in slave trade in the days of VOC, and the Coromandel Coast and Malabar Coast were not spared from their inhuman business, they are considered better than Portuguese by those who benefited from their presence in Kerala. Not just people of Cochin but also people of upper Travancore benefited immensely from Dutch presence, as did all the trading posts along the Malabar Coast, which were taken over from Portuguese by the Dutch - Cannanore, Kollam, Pallipuram etc. After Dutch lost to the king of Travancore at Colachel in 1741, the king of Cochin had no more benefit from the Dutch. It was for that reason a treaty was signed with the British in 1791, by the descendants of the king of Cochin who had been ousted by a petty ruler from south of Cochin with the help of Dutch.

It doesn’t take rocket science to figure out why some church groups are now keen to wipe out the name Kodungallur, referred to as Cranganore, by Europeans, from history books. The REAL history of Christianity in Kerala since 1500 is written with reference to Cranganore, always known as Kodungallur to locals. It doesn’t take rocket science to understand why they want to promote a newly invented town Maliankara, the place they invented for their fairy tales written since the beginning of the nineteenth century. They conveniently gave a Greek name, a Greek name, for Kodungallur, referred to as Cranganore by Europeans! If anyone were to believe the fiction writers, Kodungallur was ruled by the Greeks in ancient times! And the Greeks supposedly called Kodungallur, Muziris.

This newly invented town, Maliankara, is closer to Cochin. It is not Kodungallur. The Machiavellian tactic is clear as day. To shift the history of Apostle Thomas away from its original tradition in Kodungallur to Cochin, to a place invented by a non-Catholic migrant group in the nineteenth century! Even at the time of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan’s visit in 1806, the town Maliankara associated with Apostle Thomas tradition didn’t exist’. See of Cranganore was still very much a part of current reality at the time and Cranganore was still the place associated with the landing of Apostle Thomas according to local tradition.

The destruction of local traditions by a migrant group in the nineteenth century needs to be stopped. But who is going to do it? Except for the small ancient Christian community with its own bishop until 1597, which came in communion with RCC in 1599, the rest of Christianity in Kerala is a European colonial trader construct since 1500. Some members of Church of England, Church of Scotland and Lutherans, have all lent support in the fiction being written since the beginning of nineteenth century that is being passed off as history.

If my voice be the only wake up call to the natives of Kerala interested in real history, so be it. Lay Syro Malabar Catholics of 1887 Vicariate of Thrissur should get their heads out of the deep freeze and think for themselves while reading fiction that passes for history these days.
 
Except we all know marthoma history, it’s not like the marthoma reformation split happened millenia ago - it was about 200 yrs… with British support, it’s not that hard to find unbiased primary sources…
Except we know the history of the non-Catholic group, including the Latin Rite Diocese of Cochin schismatics, that went on to form New Age churches connected to the Middle East in the nineteenth century. None of these churches existed at the time of the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan (a Scottish member of Church of England) in 1806. It all began after joint training in CMS seminary for twenty years 1816 - 1836, at the Synod of Mavelikkara in 1836. The non-Catholics became known as Jacobites sometime after that. It must be remembered Jacob Arminius was a Dutch Calvinist and Jacobites are also associated with Scotland. So Jacobite is not merely a Middle Eastern term. Marthomites formed the first split group.

It is not that hard to find primary sources of these historical events.

Church of Scotland and Lutherans have also played a big role behind the scenes, in the academic work that was undertaken - with regard to Syriac Liturgies in the Middle East and transporting Middle Eastern history to Kerala since the nineteenth century, which has no connection to local history or traditions. Conferences are held to coordinate the different versions written by different people. Lutheran converts in Kerala all joined up non-Catholic churches. There were several European Protestant groups active in south Travancore and Coromandel Coast since the arrival of Dutch and Danish fleet at Tranquebar (Coromandel Coast) in 1602. Syro Malankara Church created in 1932 was part of the non-Catholic group until then. Lutheran Basel Mission, very active in British Malabar District of North Kerala, was shut down at the start of World War I, before the Syro Malankara Church was formed.

However only the role of CMS missionaries and Church of England is better known.
 
Every true native of present Kerala should wake up and smell the coffee about the influence European colonial trader made churches have had in inventing history of locals to suit their own purposes. If, natives who cared for real history had the courage to admit that the Hindu king of Cochin was a mere puppet in the hands of European traders since 1500, and European traders had a run of his kingdom, a lot of real history, with the good and bad, can be salvaged. If Germans can own up to their dreaded Nazi past and move on, so can all natives of Kerala who were really victims of colonial traders, with their cooperation because they stood to benefit from the cooperation, learn from the mistakes of the past, so that they don’t repeat the same mistakes of having others do the thinking for them. The Dutch were able to conquer Cochin only because some petty ruler from south of Cochin wanted to conquer the international trade base in Cochin and sought Dutch help to do it. Although the Dutch were world masters in slave trade in the days of VOC, and the Coromandel Coast and Malabar Coast were not spared from their inhuman business, they are considered better than Portuguese by those who benefited from their presence in Kerala. Not just people of Cochin but also people of upper Travancore benefited immensely from Dutch presence, as did all the trading posts along the Malabar Coast, which were taken over from Portuguese by the Dutch - Cannanore, Kollam, Pallipuram etc. After Dutch lost to the king of Travancore at Colachel in 1741, the king of Cochin had no more benefit from the Dutch. It was for that reason a treaty was signed with the British in 1791, by the descendants of the king of Cochin who had been ousted by a petty ruler from south of Cochin with the help of Dutch.

It doesn’t take rocket science to figure out why some church groups are now keen to wipe out the name Kodungallur, referred to as Cranganore, by Europeans, from history books. The REAL history of Christianity in Kerala since 1500 is written with reference to Cranganore, always known as Kodungallur to locals. It doesn’t take rocket science to understand why they want to promote a newly invented town Maliankara, the place they invented for their fairy tales written since the beginning of the nineteenth century. They conveniently gave a Greek name, a Greek name, for Kodungallur, referred to as Cranganore by Europeans! If anyone were to believe the fiction writers, Kodungallur was ruled by the Greeks in ancient times! And the Greeks supposedly called Kodungallur, Muziris.

This newly invented town, Maliankara, is closer to Cochin. It is not Kodungallur. The Machiavellian tactic is clear as day. To shift the history of Apostle Thomas away from its original tradition in Kodungallur to Cochin, to a place invented by a non-Catholic migrant group in the nineteenth century! Even at the time of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan’s visit in 1806, the town Maliankara associated with Apostle Thomas tradition didn’t exist’. See of Cranganore was still very much a part of current reality at the time and Cranganore was still the place associated with the landing of Apostle Thomas according to local tradition.

The destruction of local traditions by a migrant group in the nineteenth century needs to be stopped. But who is going to do it? Except for the small ancient Christian community with its own bishop until 1597, which came in communion with RCC in 1599, the rest of Christianity in Kerala is a European colonial trader construct since 1500. Some members of Church of England, Church of Scotland and Lutherans, have all lent support in the fiction being written since the beginning of nineteenth century that is being passed off as history.

If my voice be the only wake up call to the natives of Kerala interested in real history, so be it. Lay Syro Malabar Catholics of 1887 Vicariate of Thrissur should get their heads out of the deep freeze and think for themselves while reading fiction that passes for history these days.
Do you believe that St. Thomas Christians only exist in Trisshur?

Did St. Thomas not create 7 “and a half churches”? Where is Niranam located? What about Nilackkal? Are you saying that all of these Christians are not “authentic St. Thomas Christians”?? and that only Trisshurians are “authentic”?

How did you get that the Greeks “ruled” Muziris?? You just created that fiction, the scholars say that there was TRADING between Muziris and Rome/Greece, not that they RULED over - talk about hyperbolic absurdity. To read about Muziris from some scholars see here: jamesagnel.blogspot.com/2009/05/ancient-port-of-muziris.html - they have found evidence of that name for the area from 118-116 BC - that’s BC! Perhaps they were influenced by Claudius Buchanan as well, according to your theory!!
 
Orthodox do not believe change of material - that bread becoming flesh, wine becoming blood literally. Orthodox church believe it is equivalent to the the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ by blessing it through Holyspirit. Marthoma Church also believe the same. The revision of texts do not ascribe to change of this undrstanding.
I wiil try to study the subject to see if my understanding should change about it. But you did not reply to the point.
I don’t know where to begin. Your post here, “Orthodox do not believe change of material - that bread becoming flesh, wine becoming blood literally.Orthodox church believe it is equivalent to the the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ by blessing it through Holyspirit” is nonsensical… Both Catholic and Orthodox believe the Eucharist is “is the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ by blessing of Holy Spirit” literally.
Marthoma Church also believe the same.
If Marthoma have the same faith as the Orthodox, why did they split?? Go back and reunite with the Orthodox Church!
The revision of texts do not ascribe to change of this undrstanding.
Then why did Abraham malpan go to the trouble of conforming these texts to Anglicanism? Why did he both being excommunicated over such a “minor” thing?
No. Marthoma teaches it is so. but not material change. It is blessed to be the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit.
Again, this makes no sense. You’re basically saying that your church teaches “symbolic presence”.
I have read quoting from them. But have to get hold of the minutes entirely. I was wondwering if you have, you can share.
I don’t have the minutes to Diamper.
To simplify the issue Mother Mary and all Saints are venerable to Mar Thomites. Intercessory prayer is different topic.
When are the Mother of God and the Saints venerated in Marthoma churches? Which part of the Holy Qurbono?
Intercessory prayer is NOT a different topic - it has to do with one’s belief in the Communion of Saints - either they understand it in the Apostolic manner or they do not.

Are the Saints in heaven? IF so, then they should be venerated and also recognized as intercessors - that is their God-given role. If you recognize this, you have a duty to act on your faith.
 
Do you believe that St. Thomas Christians only exist in Trisshur?

Did St. Thomas not create 7 “and a half churches”? Where is Niranam located? What about Nilackkal? Are you saying that all of these Christians are not “authentic St. Thomas Christians”?? and that only Trisshurians are “authentic”?

How did you get that the Greeks “ruled” Muziris?? You just created that fiction, the scholars say that there was TRADING between Muziris and Rome/Greece, not that they RULED over - talk about hyperbolic absurdity. To read about Muziris from some scholars see here: jamesagnel.blogspot.com/2009/05/ancient-port-of-muziris.html - they have found evidence of that name for the area from 118-116 BC - that’s BC! Perhaps they were influenced by Claudius Buchanan as well, according to your theory!!
The **native ** Apostle Thomas tradition is associated only with Kodungallur, Palayoor (written as Palur/Paloor) and Malayatoor. There was no ancient church in Paroor when Rev Dr Buchanan visited. The oldest church he referred to and made a drawing of was the St Thomas church at Palayoor (referred to as Palur in some writings). The antiquity of the Palayur church was known to the Jesuits, who worked with the authentic ancient community, long before Dutch and British arrived.

That is why those in the Syro Malabar Church out of respect for fiction written by other groups say that the churches mentioned by them (which incidentally happen to be where Portuguese and Dutch had their trade bases and plantations) as part of the newly created seven and a half churches tradition (which didn’t even exist at the time of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan’s visit in 1806!) , all but the churches at Kodungallur and Palayoor, died out by the time Portuguese arrived.

Even at the time of Rev Dr Buchanan’s visit in 1806, the seven and half churches fairy tale did not exist! The oldest church in Niranam, a Jacobite Church, was less than 250 years old when the first census of Travancore was taken in 1901 by the British Resident. So much for authentic Apostle Thomas tradition being associated with Niranam! The non-Catholic community clearly gave themselves as a migrant group to Rev Dr Buchanan in 1806. All the other fiction was invented later.

Ancient native Chrisitans who came in communion with RCC in 1599, for whom See of Angamaly was created under Portuguese Padroado, the See being renamed See of Cranganore in 1600, which became Vicariate of Thrissur in 1887, is not synonymous with the Thrissur town. Could you please reread my post which clarified what I mean by 1887 Vicariate of Thrissur? The present Thrissur town was created in 1790s by Shakthan Thampuran, and the present Thrissur District was created in 1949. I refer to the area that constitutes the present Thrissur District, including the eleven ancient churches which was part of 1887 Vicariate of Thrissur.

Secular history has it that Vasco da Gama was the first European who came to Malabar Coast in 1498. Malabar Coast was connected to the Middle East by Arab traders. Arabs sold their goods from Malabar Coast to Europeans in the Middle East, but Europeans had no direct contact with the Malabar Coast.

Once again this fiction about direct contact of Malabar Coast with Greece and Rome is invented by groups with vested interest. How come a Greek or Roman version of Christianity didn’t come to Malabar Coast before the Portuguese came?

Oh so some scholar found “evidence” of a name that existed in 118 - 116 BC, in the sands of Maliankara in the nineteenth century, considering no recorded history exists? Interesting!
 
Your question is why didn’t Greek and Roman Christianity arrive in India in 118BC? - Let me point out the obvious answer…

., because BC is before Christ… The Greeks and Romans were pagan at the time. Greek and Roman Christianity started thriving AFTER St. Thomas came to India…

When Jews started leaving Palestine and becoming Hellenized, Greek speaking Jews came to Kerala as well. The descendants of these are most likely the Jews who St. Thomas met.

Let me get this straight - your newly minted theory is that the historic 7 and a half St. Thomas Churches never existed??

That St. Thomas only built 3 Churches - all in Trisshur?

I’ve got to read the primary source of this newly created theory - the never before heard “Trisshuriam Mariamkutty theory of the Syrian Christians of St. Thomas”. You may as well declare your support for the RSS and Hindu-atva now, since that is the theory they espouse - theirs goes a bit further, namely St. Thomas never came to India at all, and that all the Christians are a European infiltration, and that the Europeans concocted all of the St. Thomas story… Look at that - I’ve uncovered the “vested interest” in support of this newly minted theory… namely anti-Christian Hindu fanatics…
 
Your question is why didn’t Greek and Roman Christianity arrive in India in 118BC? - Let me point out the obvious answer…

., because BC is before Christ… The Greeks and Romans were pagan at the time. Greek and Roman Christianity started thriving AFTER St. Thomas came to India…

When Jews started leaving Palestine and becoming Hellenized, Greek speaking Jews came to Kerala as well. The descendants of these are most likely the Jews who St. Thomas met.
I have no doubt about the fiction writing skills of those who are supposedly writing history of Christianity in Kerala in recent years. All of them seem to have a degree in English literature. No wonder.

There is an ancient community of Malayali Muslims in Kerala which is evidence of the early Arab connection.

But latest fiction about Greek speaking Romans in Malabar Coast who came with Arab traders. What is next? Japanese speaking settlers on Malabar Coast in 2000 BC?

It would have made more sense to say Persian speaking Jews and Christians came to Malabar Coast on Arab ships before the birth of Islam. That fits logically with the theory of migrations better. However the migrants Rev Dr Buchanan met were of more recent origin, probably Dutch Jewish Christians of which there were plenty in Holland at the time of VOC. The presence of Dutch Calvinists on Coromandel Coast since 1602 and on Malabar Coast since 1658, a presence and control until British took over in 1795, is beyond dispute.
 
I’ve got to read the primary source of this newly created theory - the never before heard “Trisshuriam Mariamkutty theory of the Syrian Christians of St. Thomas”. You may as well declare your support for the RSS and Hindu-atva now, since that is the theory they espouse - theirs goes a bit further, namely St. Thomas never came to India at all, and that all the Christians are a European infiltration, and that the Europeans concocted all of the St. Thomas story… Look at that - I’ve uncovered the “vested interest” in support of this newly minted theory… namely anti-Christian Hindu fanatics…
Mr SyroMalankara, you are not reading my posts. Yet again. The Synod of Diamper 1599 is a historical event. It involved native Christians. See of Angamaly converted to See of Cranganore is likewise a historical event. The work of Jesuits among the native ancient Christian community are all historical events.

I have denied none of them. I am only challenging the fiction that started to be written AFTER the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806, after the whole weight of British government in India, Church of England and Church of Scotland and Lutheran Church supported the non-Catholic group he visited.

The non-Catholic group Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan visited were NOT part of the native St Thomas Christians who were in the See of Cranganore at the time of his visit. The fiction about Coonan Cross Oath didn’t exist either. Latin Rite Catholics lived in Mattancherry, Cochin. It is understandable that they needed protection when Dutch took over and therefore they had to denounce their connection to the Portuguese in order to survive under the Dutch. Hence Carmelites, who were not Portuguese, or part of Portuguese Padroado, took care of those who chose to remain Catholics. Those who chose to become non-Catholics, new non-Catholic converts and new non-Catholic migrants automatically came under the protection of Dutch as long as they were present on Malabar Coast. It was the non-Catholic community under Dutch protection that was handed over to British protection, after the Dutch were ousted. Native Christians belonging to See of Cranganore needed no protection from anyone.

And btw, you ought to verify which churches in Kerala are actually working closely with RSS. Syro Malabar Catholic church is definitely not it.
 
and that all the Christians are a European infiltration, and that the Europeans concocted all of the St. Thomas story… Look at that - I’ve uncovered the “vested interest” in support of this newly minted theory… namely anti-Christian Hindu fanatics…
Christianity came from Europe for the first time in 1500 beginning with Portuguese. History also records that there was an ancient community of native Christians when Portuguese arrived. Synod of Diamper in 1599 is a historical event involving that native Christian community.

When fiction about Roman and Greeks in Malabar Coast in pre-Christian era is added, it is for vested interests. Inventing a name Muziris and Malinakara as the place where Apostle Thomas landed etc. That is all by outsider groups for vested interests.
 
Mr SyroMalankara, a call to get at the REAL history of Christianity in Kerala is not about being anti-Christian. How does the allegation of being anti-Christian go hand in hand with supporting the See of Angamaly - Cranganore in its native Apostle Thomas traditions, eh? I’m totally against this fiction regarding Malinanakara invented in the nineteenth century. You really seem to lack all experience in having discussions with people who disagree with your views.
 
I have denied none of them. I am only challenging the fiction that started to be written AFTER the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806, after the whole weight of British government in India, Church of England and Church of Scotland and Lutheran Church supported the non-Catholic group he visited.
In another thread you claimed that the protestant missionaries were NOT supported by their governments, that they wanted nothing from the native except to educate them - now they are all part of the conspiracy to concoct a phony story among the converts to pretend they are St. Thomas Christians - which is it?
The non-Catholic group Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan visited were NOT part of the native St Thomas Christians who were in the See of Cranganore at the time of his visit.
Wording is very important. Buchanan visited native St. Thomas Christians - but they were separated from the See of “Cranganore”.
The fiction about Coonan Cross Oath didn’t exist either.
So the Syro-Malabar Church is just going along with that story as well - just as they are going along with the 7 and half churches story - to not hurt the other churches feelings?
Those who chose to become non-Catholics, new non-Catholic converts and new non-Catholic migrants automatically came under the protection of Dutch as long as they were present on Malabar Coast. It was the non-Catholic community under Dutch protection that was handed over to British protection, after the Dutch were ousted.
They may have been under the Patronage of the Dutch and the British - “protection”, hardly - protection from whom? Ecclesiologically and spiritually, the Church was indirectly under the protection of the Antiochian Patriarch and a local “archdeacon” (called Moopen).
Native Christians belonging to See of Cranganore needed no protection from anyone.
Their Church needed protection from latinizers, mainly from within; and from schism due to the anger against Diamper.
And btw, you ought to verify which churches in Kerala are actually working closely with RSS. Syro Malabar Catholic church is definitely not it.
Stop evading, I am not accusing the Syro-Malabar Church, I am pointing at your personal theory that is not even supported by any scholars in the Syro-Malabar Church - maybe because they “don’t want to hurt the feelings of the other churches”, as you claimed earlier.
 
And btw, you ought to verify which churches in Kerala are actually working closely with RSS. Syro Malabar Catholic church is definitely not it.
Your conspiracy theories about the shadowy “vested interest” creating a story about everything from the original 7 and half St. Thomas Churches, to the original St. Thomas converts, to where the native St. Thomas Christians lived, to the See in Antioch, the See in Babylon, to the local archdeacon, to the origin of the West Syriac Liturgy and its adoption by the non-Catholic native (you claim non-native) St. Thomas Christians, even the migration theory, and the trade routes between Greece/Rome and Maliankara/Muziris/Kodungallur – including spreading this tale and making sure that every scholar and academic to this day stuck to this version, including those of the Syro-Malabar Church which chose not to break from Rome - is not supported by the following either: (perhaps Claudius Buchanan influenced these as well)
  1. Archeological Survey of India, Janpath, New Delhi
  2. State Archaeology Department, Thiruvananthapuram
  3. Deccan College, Post Graduate & Research Institute, Pune - 411 006
  4. National Geophysical Research Institute, Uppal Road, Hyderabad - 500 007
  5. Institute of Physics, Sachivalaya Marg, Bhubaneswar - 751 005
  6. Kerala Forest Research Institute, Peechi, Trissur Dt- 680 653
  7. Centre for Earth Science Studies, Aakkulam, Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala
  8. National Institute of Advanced Sciences, Indian Institute of Science Campus, Bangalore-560 012
  9. Southern Naval Command, Kochi
  10. Dept. of Marine Geology & Geo Physics, School of Marine Sciences, Fine Arts Avenue, Cochin - 686 016
  11. Geological Survey of India, Kerala Unit, Dharani Bhavan, Manikanteswaram P.O, Thiruvananthapuram -13
  12. Department of Epigraphy & Archaeology, Tamil University, Thanjavur- 613 005
  13. National Research Laboratory for Conservation, Lucknow- 14
  14. Department of History, University of Pondicherry, Pondicherry
So is your theory that the above agencies were ALL duped by Buchanan, or that they are actively conspiring to support the theory that you claim he (along with the Brits, the Lutherans, the Church of England and the Scots) “invented”?
 
in another thread you claimed that the protestant missionaries were not supported by their governments, that they wanted nothing from the native except to educate them - now they are all part of the conspiracy to concoct a phony story among the converts to pretend they are st. Thomas christians - which is it?
I never wrote that Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan or CMS missionaries concocted any story on behalf of non-Catholics on Malabar Coast in 1806. In fact I was highlighting the differences in the state of affairs at the time of visit of Rev Dr Buchanan and the later fiction.

At the time of Rev Dr Buchanan’s visit there was only ONE group of non-Catholics on Malabar Coast. The CMS and Lutherans had not yet arrived.

The non-Catholic group broke with CMS missionaries in 1836, after twenty years of joint training. The break up was marked with litigation to gain access to the Seminary, a case which the non-Catholics won.
originally posted by syromalankara: Wording is very important. Buchanan visited native st. Thomas christians - but they were separated from the see of “cranganore”.
Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan did NOT visit native Thomas Christians who were separated from See of Cranganore. The non-Catholics he visited were migrants who had never been part of Synod of Diamper in 1599. He visited the Church at Angamaly and the bishop at Cranganore to collect Syriac documents. He also visited the Carmelite Vicar Apostolate of Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide to collect documents. He collected Biblical documents also from white and “black” Jews. The bishop of the non-Catholics he visited was called Mar Dionysius. That bishop had no connection whatsoever with Antioch.
originally posted by syromalankara: So the syro-malabar church is just going along with that story as well - just as they are going along with the 7 and half churches story - to not hurt the other churches feelings?
You forget there are two groups within the Syro Malabar Church. The Knanayi Christians, who follow a different Syriac Liturgy was part of the non-Catholic group who trained with CMS missionaries. The group that calls itself Knanayi Christians have a non-Catholic Jacobite counterpart, who are not within the Syro Malabar Church.
originally posted by syromalankara: They may have been under the patronage of the dutch and the british - “protection”, hardly - protection from whom? Ecclesiologically and spiritually, the church was indirectly under the protection of the antiochian patriarch and a local “archdeacon” (called moopen).
The non-Catholics asked for political protection from the Hindu king in Travancore and from Muslims of Tippu Sultan. The separate Diwan for upper Travancore during British Raj was part of the arrangement for political protection from the Hindu king of Travancore.

There was no connection with Antioch at the time of the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan. The Metran group of non-Catholics is proof of that. The BAVA (Patriarch) faction was formed much later, after Synod of Mavelikkara in 1836, after the joint training with CMS missionaries. One person from the non-Catholic group went to the Middle East in search of a Patriarch sometime after 1836.

There was no local Archdeacon in 1806. The non-Catholic group Rev Dr Buchanan visited was a poorly organized group who needed help to form a proper church. This he promised to help them with. That included providing Syriac Bibles etc.
originally posted by syromalankara: Their church needed protection from latinizers, mainly from within; and from schism due to the anger against diamper.
The year of Rev Dr Buchanan’s visit was 1806. The Synod of Diamper took place in 1599. You have not made any response to my question asking why the non-Catholic groups never looked for a Patriarch in the Middle East during the Dutch period, 1658 - 1795, and there had never been any mention of Synod of Diamper until the late nineteenth century when the non-Catholic groups decided to invent a connection with the ancient community of Christians.

Why was there no so called anger against Synod of Diamper during the Dutch period? And even during joint training with CMS for twenty years?
originally posted by syromalankara: Stop evading, i am not accusing the syro-malabar church, i am pointing at your personal theory that is not even supported by any scholars in the syro-malabar church - maybe because they “don’t want to hurt the feelings of the other churches”, as you claimed earlier.
You should read up about the leaders of Christian churches in Kerala who are openly supporting the anti-conversion Hindutva agenda, who even invite BJP leaders and attend their political meetings. It is not the Syro Malabar Church.
 
Wording is very important. Buchanan visited native St. Thomas Christians - but they were separated from the See of “Cranganore”.
The fact that you put a historical Cranganore as “Cranganore” is proof that you wish to peddle your fictious Maliankaria, Malananakra or whatever.

See of Angamaly created at Synod of Diamper in 1599 is history. That the See was shifted to Cranganore (the European name for Kodungallur) is likewise history. Writing Cranganore as “Cranganore” to delete REAL history can work only if your church controls the whole world and all its records.

No Christian community that claimed to be separated from the See of Cranganore existed at the time of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan existed.

The non-Catholics Rev Buchanan visited was a migrant group which had never at any time had anything to do with the Catholic church in Malabar Coast.
 
Your conspiracy theories about the shadowy “vested interest” creating a story about everything from the original 7 and half St. Thomas Churches, to the original St. Thomas converts, to where the native St. Thomas Christians lived, to the See in Antioch, the See in Babylon, to the local archdeacon, to the origin of the West Syriac Liturgy and its adoption by the non-Catholic native (you claim non-native) St. Thomas Christians, even the migration theory, and the trade routes between Greece/Rome and Maliankara/Muziris/Kodungallur – including spreading this tale and making sure that every scholar and academic to this day stuck to this version, including those of the Syro-Malabar Church which chose not to break from Rome - is not supported by the following either: (perhaps Claudius Buchanan influenced these as well)
  1. Archeological Survey of India, Janpath, New Delhi
  2. State Archaeology Department, Thiruvananthapuram
  3. Deccan College, Post Graduate & Research Institute, Pune - 411 006
  4. National Geophysical Research Institute, Uppal Road, Hyderabad - 500 007
  5. Institute of Physics, Sachivalaya Marg, Bhubaneswar - 751 005
  6. Kerala Forest Research Institute, Peechi, Trissur Dt- 680 653
  7. Centre for Earth Science Studies, Aakkulam, Thiruvananthapuram, Kerala
  8. National Institute of Advanced Sciences, Indian Institute of Science Campus, Bangalore-560 012
  9. Southern Naval Command, Kochi
  10. Dept. of Marine Geology & Geo Physics, School of Marine Sciences, Fine Arts Avenue, Cochin - 686 016
  11. Geological Survey of India, Kerala Unit, Dharani Bhavan, Manikanteswaram P.O, Thiruvananthapuram -13
  12. Department of Epigraphy & Archaeology, Tamil University, Thanjavur- 613 005
  13. National Research Laboratory for Conservation, Lucknow- 14
  14. Department of History, University of Pondicherry, Pondicherry
So is your theory that the above agencies were ALL duped by Buchanan, or that they are actively conspiring to support the theory that you claim he (along with the Brits, the Lutherans, the Church of England and the Scots) “invented”?
I don’t quite get your point in listing Indian institutions.

You need to list what exactly has been proved by these institutions and on what basis.

Kerala became part of British India only in 1795. Until then it was an independent region, consisting of several independent kingdoms. India consisted of hundreds of such independent regions before British India was formed.

You should have made available all the writings of Jesuits who worked directly with the ancient community of Christians on Malabar Coast, long before the Dutch and British came to India.
 
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