Talking along with the priest

[Marysann]

When I hear someone saying the prayers of the Mass along with the priest, I wonder if the person has a hearing loss. If people are hard of hearing, they may think that they are saying the prayers to themselves. They don’t realize how others can hear them. I think that this may also be the case with those who are always a few words off when they are saying the rosary in a group. If have often seen this when saying the rosary with a group of mostly elderly people. I try to be patient with these people because someday I might have the same problems myself.

 

[StephanieC]

I have encountered people in mass who say the Priest’s prayers of the liturgy along with the priest. They do not whisper but say it loud enough for those nearby to hear. Yes I get irritated and I pray for patience. My question is, why do people do this and is there a problem with it?

Why do they do this? I guess we’ll never know, right?

Is there a problem with it? Yes.

What to do about it? There’s nothing wrong with quietly slipping out of your pew and finding another place to sit (preferably a few rows behind the “talker”). I’ve done this everytime it happens to me, and find that it eliminates it as a problem for me completely. Kind of like pulling over & letting an annoying tailgater pass you on the road.

Otherwise, I either end up seething in irritation (not a way to receive the eucharist!) or alternately, getting a case of the giggles over the ridiculousness of it all!

 

[netmilsmom]

It is encouraged in the local church. The priest says"all together now," right before the Concluding Doxology. We are also encouraged to say the entire Eucharistic prayer right along with the priest. This is the result of some sort of workshop the Diocese had with a visiting Bishop. At any rate, I do neither, and I feel like I am alone in the wilderness at times.

Find a new parish.
If you want to go there, ask to see the reference in the GIRM from the “workshop”
I have found that “the diocese said that we can.” is an excuse used often. Mostly, it’s some secretary or friend at the Diocese who says it.

The laity saying the Doxology is WRONG.

 

[netmilsmom]

The last part of the sentence is very important. I have seen this happen – a laywoman led the congregation through the penitential rite, the creed, maybe other parts I don’t remember, while the priest sat by. This is a completely different animal from a person in the pews murmuring the priest’s words.

It seems like the quoted document may have other practices in mind, like the orans posture at the Our Father, but it seems like the language of “grave abuse” is applied to situations where the priest’s role is actually usurped.

Anyone who choses to say the Holy Mass along with the priest (not with just lips, but even audibly to the person next to you) is not correct.

Why push the rules? It states "In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers "
Why do you think they used the word “pronounce”?

Read the whole thing.

 

[netmilsmom]

If Pete in the pew next to me is reading my lips, then he’s got a bigger problem than I do.

I don’t see this as a problem at all, but if you want to worry about for me, feel free.

Peace to you all.

Ah! The “Spirit of Vatican II”. If it feels good, do it.

I don’t see rolling through stopsigns when no one is coming to be a problem. So is it?

I’m not worrying about you, my friend. However, there is a generation of children coming up who see you and others bending the rules. I guess it’s their problem. We who hold the correct information need to be an example to those who don’t have it.

 

[netmilsmom]

In light of the Vatican document cited, how seriously should I take this? Should I try to do something about it (i.e. talk to some friends I’ve noticed doing it, etc.) or let it be?

Any thoughts?

Karolina

If it comes up in conversation, convey the information. Otherwise, pray.
As you can see, to some, even the right information can be rationalized away.
Bless You!

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Isn’t there enough to worry about without getting bent out of shape when someone loves the Lord so much that they actually speak out? Good Lord, what a difference there would be if 1. Everyone sang and 2. Everyone prayed. Why not go privately to your brother or sister who offers the priests prayers too loudly and share your love for them and show them why this behavior is problematic. I’m a subdeacon at our church and find myself mouthing the prayers of the priest all the time. I usually catch myself but I suspect that sometimes I may even say them audibly.

Don’t be pharisaical. If this really is a problem to you go to them privately. Maybe you will find that you will be praying for each other before the visit is over.

CDL

 

[netmilsmom]

Isn’t there enough to worry about without getting bent out of shape when someone loves the Lord so much that they actually speak out? Good Lord, what a difference there would be if 1. Everyone sang and 2. Everyone prayed. Why not go privately to your brother or sister who offers the priests prayers too loudly and share your love for them and show them why this behavior is problematic. I’m a subdeacon at our church and find myself mouthing the prayers of the priest all the time. I usually catch myself but I suspect that sometimes I may even say them audibly.

Don’t be pharisaical. If this really is a problem to you go to them privately. Maybe you will find that you will be praying for each other before the visit is over.

CDL

Okay so the Vatican says the we shouldn’t do it.
They also say that we shouldn’t lie.
So if you find yourself lying by omission, is it a sin?
Venial but still a sin.

We who hold the knowledge need to do things right. You state that you find yourself doing it and stop, correct? Well that is what we should be doing.

This is not something that I would run to a pastor about. However, it is something that the Vatican has spoken on, so it’s big enough not to be dismissed.

For those sitting next to you, pray for them.
For those reading here, time to stop.

Otherwise it snowballs like the parish above encouraging the laity to do what the Vatican says is incorrect.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Okay so the Vatican says the we shouldn’t do it.
They also say that we shouldn’t lie.
So if you find yourself lying by omission, is it a sin?
Venial but still a sin.

We who hold the knowledge need to do things right. You state that you find yourself doing it and stop, correct? Well that is what we should be doing.

This is not something that I would run to a pastor about. However, it is something that the Vatican has spoken on, so it’s big enough not to be dismissed.

For those sitting next to you, pray for them.
For those reading here, time to stop.

Otherwise it snowballs like the parish above encouraging the laity to do what the Vatican says is incorrect.

You missed my main point. If it bothers you and it is a sin (these are Jesus’ teachings) then go directly to the person who offends you and speak loviningly to him/her in order to win that person to the truth. If it does bother you this is what you must do. We are specifically enjoined from complaining about it to someone else. That’s called “gossip.” We are specifically commanded to go to the person privately. Otherwise we are to remain still.

CDL

 

[hoosiertoo]

Ah! The “Spirit of Vatican II”. If it feels good, do it.

I don’t see rolling through stopsigns when no one is coming to be a problem. So is it?

I’m not worrying about you, my friend. However, there is a generation of children coming up who see you and others bending the rules. I guess it’s their problem. We who hold the correct information need to be an example to those who don’t have it.

In my Catholic - indeed, in my Christian - life I know nothing BUT Vatican II.

I’m not here to get the liturgy right. I’ve attended Mass in several states, in cathedrals, small parishes and on the grounds of a few different religious orders, and apparently NOBODY gets the liturgy right.

Guess what? I had to look up orans because I really didn’t know what it was. Apparently our entire congregation gets that wrong, too - at least the ones on either end of the pew. The ones in the middle hold hands.

Loners either do - or don’t - or use some other form of physical expression during the Our Father.

My wife and I kiss for the sign of peace.

If Pete kisses me, he’s going to need the Anointing of the Sick and I’m going to need Reconciliation. Especially if he’s read my lips wrong.

It just isn’t a big deal.

Peace to you all.

 

[YinYangMom]

Did you get to this part of the thread?
"In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity. "

I think you’re missing an important distinction…
Rules are created to guide.
The ten commandments guided the Israelites.
Jesus compressed the 10 in to 2 for us Christians.

These rules you point out are the guidelines for the liturgy.
They are basically saying one cannot intentionally and with the intent of presuming they are equal to the priest ‘quasi preside’ at the Mass.

That makes perfect sense.
For those who know the rules it’s easy to follow.
But c’mon…how many Catholics know the rule - particularly in the wording you provided??
In the case of myself and of hooseirtoo we aren’t intentionally ‘quasi presiding’…we are moved at the moment by the beautiful prayers, so moved that we find ourselves utter the words to ourselves. We are not intentionally doing it, we are not being loud about it, we aren’t even aware we are doing it until later…there is not desire or intent on our part to be a priest or pretend to be holier than the people around us. Heck we probably aren’t even aware there are others in the building - that’s how caught up in the liturgy we are.

So, no. I don’t believe hoosiertoo or I need to worry about breaking the rule here. Yes we can be more aware of how it is wording so that perhaps we can catch ourselves getting caught up earlier until it stops, I suppose.

 

[netmilsmom]

You missed my main point. If it bothers you and it is a sin (these are Jesus’ teachings) then go directly to the person who offends you and speak loviningly to him/her in order to win that person to the truth. If it does bother you this is what you must do. We are specifically enjoined from complaining about it to someone else. That’s called “gossip.” We are specifically commanded to go to the person privately. Otherwise we are to remain still.

CDL

This is a place to vent, my friend.
Gossip is when someone knowing speaks of a person.
Venting frustrations about a group of people helps us to see things differently. Showing by example is also a way to teach. The people who do not know can learn by what we do.
Sometimes confronting a person makes the situation worse. Better to lead by example and pray that those who do not have your knowledge will be enlightened.
Unless you are a priest, deacon or charged with teaching such as a Catechist.

 

[netmilsmom]

In my Catholic - indeed, in my Christian - life I know nothing BUT Vatican II.

I’m not here to get the liturgy right. I’ve attended Mass in several states, in cathedrals, small parishes and on the grounds of a few different religious orders, and apparently NOBODY gets the liturgy right.

Guess what? I had to look up orans because I really didn’t know what it was. Apparently our entire congregation gets that wrong, too - at least the ones on either end of the pew. The ones in the middle hold hands.

Loners either do - or don’t - or use some other form of physical expression during the Our Father.

My wife and I kiss for the sign of peace.

If Pete kisses me, he’s going to need the Anointing of the Sick and I’m going to need Reconciliation. Especially if he’s read my lips wrong.

It just isn’t a big deal.

Peace to you all.

You are very blessed to seek the knowledge you need. Some don’t.
The problem is that the “big deal” of going with individualism is Holy Mass has gotten us to a point where we have no clue what we will run into in visiting another parish.
The Vatican is asking for unity. They have specifically given us guidelines. Other than those guidelines, we are pushing the envelope on what we “can” do.
It leads to innovation and in some cases abuse.
The Vatican leads the way. Let them lead.

 

[Walking_Home]

Why is the following so hard for us to understand. The Church has spoken on this—yet we try to find any justification for our actions. How much more clear does the Church have to be. What will it take for us to listen and abide by the Church.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html

Liturgical Celebrations

§ 1. Liturgical actions must always clearly manifest the unity of the People of God as a structured communion.(89) Thus there exists a close link between the ordered exercise of liturgical action and the reflection in the liturgy of the Church’s structured nature.

This happens when all participants, with faith and devotion, discharge those roles proper to them.

§ 2. To promote the proper identity (of various roles) in this area, those abuses which are contrary to the provisions of canon 907 are to be eradicated. In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

Can. 907 In the eucharistic celebration deacons and lay persons are not permitted to offer prayers, especially the eucharistic prayer, or to perform actions which are proper to the celebrating priest.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

[11.] The Mystery of the Eucharist “is too great for anyone to permit himself to treat it according to his own whim, so that its sacredness and its universal ordering would be obscured”.[27] On the contrary, anyone who acts thus by giving free reign to his own inclinations, even if he is a Priest, injures the substantial unity of the Roman Rite, which ought to be vigorously preserved,[28] and becomes responsible for actions that are in no way consistent with the hunger and thirst for the living God that is experienced by the people today.

[45.] To be avoided is the danger of obscuring the complementary relationship between the action of clerics and that of laypersons, in such a way that the ministry of laypersons undergoes what might be called a certain “clericalization”, while the sacred ministers inappropriately assume those things that are proper to the life and activity of the lay faithful.[116]

[52.] The proclamation of the Eucharistic Prayer, which by its very nature is the climax of the whole celebration, is proper to the Priest by virtue of his Ordination. It is therefore an abuse to proffer it in such a way that some parts of the Eucharistic Prayer are recited by a Deacon, a lay minister, or by an individual member of the faithful, or by all members of the faithful together. The Eucharistic Prayer, then, is to be recited by the Priest alone in full.[131]

 

[hoosiertoo]

Walking Home - that’s all well and good, but if I read it aright has nothing to do with Joe Catholic in the pew.

No-one but the priest celebrant may perform the liturgy in place of the celebrant. I get that. Now back to the topic at hand, which has nothing to do with that section of Canon Law.

I occasionally find myself moving my lips or Joe Catholic intones along with the priest (in our missalettes, the prayers are printed for everyone to read along, or intone, if you will) and Josephine Catholic warbles when she sings.

My response is, “So what?”

So far, the only objections I’ve seen raised that amount to anything involve some variation of “I find that annoying.”

To which my response amounts to, “So, get over it.”

And Pete Catholic needs to stay away from me.

 

[CRW]

Every week, I say the rosary with a group of people, most of whom are in their 70’s and 80’s. I’m the young one there - they refer to me as the “young lady.” I guess it’s all in your perspective, huh?

Anyway, there is this older gentleman who is ALWAYS about 5 words ahead of us on all the prayers - I’ve never heard anyone talk so fast and LOUD in my life. I really find it hard to concentrate and say the prayers correctly because he just throws me off so badly.

I’ve finally figured out that I just need to “offer up” my irritation. I’m sure I get some poor soul out of purgatory just by offering up my irritation.

We had the same situation at my church. After a polite conversation with the gentleman, we all discovered that his hearing was so bad that 1) he could not hear our response and 2) he spoke loud because of his lost of hearing. Speak to him in charity and find out what may be the problem.

 

[Walking_Home]

Walking Home - that’s all well and good, but if I read it aright has nothing to do with Joe Catholic in the pew.

No-one but the priest celebrant may perform the liturgy in place of the celebrant. I get that. Now back to the topic at hand, which has nothing to do with that section of Canon Law.

I occasionally find myself moving my lips or Joe Catholic intones along with the priest (in our missalettes, the prayers are printed for everyone to read along, or intone, if you will) and Josephine Catholic warbles when she sings.

My response is, “So what?”

So far, the only objections I’ve seen raised that amount to anything involve some variation of “I find that annoying.”

To which my response amounts to, “So, get over it.”

And Pete Catholic needs to stay away from me.

---

It has everything to do with Joe in the pew. If we are mouthing the prayers that are specific to the priest–or performing any action specific to the priest–we are raising ourselves–above the Church. It is our will above the mind of the Church.

 

[jmcrae]

Walking Home - that’s all well and good, but if I read it aright has nothing to do with Joe Catholic in the pew.

It means that you should not say the words of the priest, thus elevating yourself to the priesthood and making yourself equal to him.

I occasionally find myself moving my lips or Joe Catholic intones along with the priest (in our missalettes, the prayers are printed for everyone to read along, or intone, if you will)

The words are in the missalette so that you know what you say in response; not so that you can say them along with him - we are supposed to stay quiet during the priest’s parts - that’s why they are clearly marked in the missalette as the priest’s parts.

and Josephine Catholic warbles when she sings.

I have no idea what warbling while singing has to do with it, unless “Josephine” is elevating herself to the priesthood by also singing the priest’s parts of the Mass at a sung Mass.

 

[netmilsmom]

So far, the only objections I’ve seen raised that amount to anything involve some variation of “I find that annoying.”

Well actually it is the Vatican that has the problem with it.
Again, why do you think that they would specifically use the words “Pronounce prayers” if mouthing the words was allowed?
I can understand where one might do this without thinking but to do it and think it’s just no big deal does not invite unity.

And especially this…
In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.

 

[hoosiertoo]

May I humbly point out that the Lord of the Sabbath has said that the sabbath is for man, not man for the sabbath.

While I agree that a pageant involving laymen is inappropriate to the rite, getting caught up in the liturgy hardly implies equality with the priest.

If one is irritated to the point of distraction by someone else’s practice, then I submit that the problem is more likely one’s, provided of course that one’s pew mate isn’t decapitating a chicken during the breaking of the bread.

The remedy is not to confront Joe or Josephine Catholic, but to go to the priest who, if he recognises it to be a problem, will move to correct it.

Peace to you all.