Talking along with the priest

[hoosiertoo]

And especially this…
In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.

Refers specifically to participation in the rite itself, ie: Jill Catholic the DRE shouldn’t be offering the Eucharistic prayer in lieu of the priest celebrant.

 

[netmilsmom]

May I humbly point out that the Lord of the Sabbath has said that the sabbath is for man, not man for the sabbath.

So were blue laws, so that we could rest on the Sabbath.
Read Mk 2:27-28 and you will see it is about the apostles doing simple tasks and not about the Sabbath being given to us to do anything we want.

However, resting on the sabbath has nothing to do with the liturgy. “The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD.”

“Why did God make you?” The answer: “God made me to know him, to love him, and to serve him in this world and to be happy with him forever in the next.” CCC.

 

[netmilsmom]

Refers specifically to participation in the rite itself, ie: Jill Catholic the DRE shouldn’t be offering the Eucharistic prayer in lieu of the priest celebrant.

Nor should you as a non-ordained. And the quote doesn’t say “in lieu”.

Look at what Quasi means…
quasi
adj : having some resemblance; “a quasi success”; “a quasi
contract” [syn: Dictionary.die.net Shut Down”]quasi]

Not trying to replace but to “look like”.

Please note the puncuation in the following citation…
“or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant.(note this period) It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.”

Where that period is shows that the Vatican does not make it a “grave abuse” but it is still not allowed.
If that period is replaced with “and” or “but”, it would have a different meaning. Then anyone pronouncing the words would be considered to be committing a “grave abuse”. They cut you a break when you are just pronouncing rather than attempting to quasi-preside. However, it is still an abuse and should be avoided.

 

[hoosiertoo]

And what section was that in?

 

[Walking_Home]

May I humbly point out that the Lord of the Sabbath has said that the sabbath is for man, not man for the sabbath.

While I agree that a pageant involving laymen is inappropriate to the rite, getting caught up in the liturgy hardly implies equality with the priest.

If one is irritated to the point of distraction by someone else’s practice, then I submit that the problem is more likely one’s, provided of course that one’s pew mate isn’t decapitating a chicken during the breaking of the bread.

The remedy is not to confront Joe or Josephine Catholic, but to go to the priest who, if he recognises it to be a problem, will move to correct it.

Peace to you all.

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If by getting caught up means that we are mimicking the priest—Yes–we are putting ourselves above the the mind of the Church.

If someones practice is contrary to the mind of the Church --it does become a problem for everyone. It is an infringement upon the right to have the Holy Mass as the Church wishes.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

[12.] On the contrary, it is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms. Likewise, the Catholic people have the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium. Finally, it is the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church.[32]

 

[netmilsmom]

And what section was that in?

.

vatican.va/roman_curia/po…081997_en.html

Liturgical Celebrations

§ 1. Liturgical actions must always clearly manifest the unity of the People of God as a structured communion.(89) Thus there exists a close link between the ordered exercise of liturgical action and the reflection in the liturgy of the Church’s structured nature.

This happens when all participants, with faith and devotion, discharge those roles proper to them.

§ 2. To promote the proper identity (of various roles) in this area, those abuses which are contrary to the provisions of canon 907 are to be eradicated. In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.

 

[hoosiertoo]

That self-same section includes the following:

*"…It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.

In the same way, the use of sacred vestments which are reserved to priests or deacons (stoles, chasubles or dalmatics) at liturgical ceremonies by non-ordained members of the faithful is clearly unlawful.

Every effort must be made to avoid even the appearance of confusion which can spring from anomalous liturgical practices. As the sacred ministers are obliged to wear all of the prescribed liturgical vestments so too the non-ordained faithful may not assume that which is not proper to them.

To avoid any confusion between sacramental liturgical acts presided over by a priest or deacon, and other acts which the non-ordained faithful may lead, it is always necessary to use clearly distinct ceremonials, especially for the latter."*

None of which has anything to do with Joe Catholic out there in pew land. If I observe Jack Catholic the EMHC acting out of line, I’ll be sure to let the bishop know.

 

[Walking_Home]

That self-same section includes the following:

*"…It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.

In the same way, the use of sacred vestments which are reserved to priests or deacons (stoles, chasubles or dalmatics) at liturgical ceremonies by non-ordained members of the faithful is clearly unlawful.

Every effort must be made to avoid even the appearance of confusion which can spring from anomalous liturgical practices. As the sacred ministers are obliged to wear all of the prescribed liturgical vestments so too the non-ordained faithful may not assume that which is not proper to them.

To avoid any confusion between sacramental liturgical acts presided over by a priest or deacon, and other acts which the non-ordained faithful may lead, it is always necessary to use clearly distinct ceremonials, especially for the latter."*

None of which has anything to do with Joe Catholic out there in pew land. If I observe Jack Catholic the EMHC acting out of line, I’ll be sure to let the bishop know.

---

What does the following say to Joe Catholic in pew land. Have we gotten to the point where we need to have “alone” defined.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

[52.] The proclamation of the Eucharistic Prayer, which by its very nature is the climax of the whole celebration, is proper to the Priest by virtue of his Ordination. It is therefore an abuse to proffer it in such a way that some parts of the Eucharistic Prayer are recited by a Deacon, a lay minister, or by an individual member of the faithful, or by all members of the faithful together. The Eucharistic Prayer, then, is to be recited by the Priest alone in full.[131]

 

[netmilsmom]

That self-same section includes the following:

*"…It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.

In the same way, the use of sacred vestments which are reserved to priests or deacons (stoles, chasubles or dalmatics) at liturgical ceremonies by non-ordained members of the faithful is clearly unlawful.

Every effort must be made to avoid even the appearance of confusion which can spring from anomalous liturgical practices. As the sacred ministers are obliged to wear all of the prescribed liturgical vestments so too the non-ordained faithful may not assume that which is not proper to them.

To avoid any confusion between sacramental liturgical acts presided over by a priest or deacon, and other acts which the non-ordained faithful may lead, it is always necessary to use clearly distinct ceremonials, especially for the latter."*

None of which has anything to do with Joe Catholic out there in pew land. If I observe Jack Catholic the EMHC acting out of line, I’ll be sure to let the bishop know.

You are correct. It is the line before this that has to do with “Joe Catholic”.
In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant.

Again, it’s before the period.

 

[hoosiertoo]

If you look carefully at Redemptionis Sacramentum, only sections 36-42 really have anything to say on the congregants, and try as I might, I don’t see anything specific to this argument.

I’ll check with Fr B, though. I could be wrong.

Peace to you all!

 

[netmilsmom]

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What does the following say to Joe Catholic in pew land. Have we gotten to the point where we need to have “alone” defined.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

[52.] The proclamation of the Eucharistic Prayer, which by its very nature is the climax of the whole celebration, is proper to the Priest by virtue of his Ordination. It is therefore an abuse to proffer it in such a way that some parts of the Eucharistic Prayer are recited by a Deacon, a lay minister, or by an individual member of the faithful, or by all members of the faithful together. The Eucharistic Prayer, then, is to be recited by the Priest alone in full.[131]

This is like the old, “The Vatican never said I couldn’t BBQ in the choir loft.” ideas.

 

[netmilsmom]

If you look carefully at Redemptionis Sacramentum, only sections 36-42 really have anything to say on the congregants, and try as I might, I don’t see anything specific to this argument.

I’ll check with Fr B, though. I could be wrong.

Peace to you all!

Which is the reason why one must look at all Vatican documents and not just one.

 

[hoosiertoo]

netmil(name removed by moderator) -

I don’t take one line out of context and apply it in ways it was not meant to address.

If the priest has asked for the participation of the congregants, then, yes, there is an issue.

I see nothing in the topic starter that indicates that is so, however.

We still haven’t addressed my main objection to the topic starter, and to express irritation with the poor woman who warbled ALL the hymns is merely petty.

I don’t see this discussion progressing at all.

 

[Stu]

I realize the desire of some here in conducting this practice but as G.K. Chesterton once remarked, "“There are some desires that are not desirable.” However, the desires of the Church, which should rule the day, are quite clear here and I would hope that a sense of obedience to the Church would prevail.

The most important thing we have as Catholics is the Mass. Let’s do it right as Christ has taught us through His Church.

Vivat Iesus,
Stu

 

[hoosiertoo]

Stu -

Uh, that’s been the point of the debate.

And I am not arguing either for or against the practice.

I’m merely arguing that one should cut one’s fellow parishioners some slack.

 

[Stu]

Stu -

Uh, that’s been the point of the debate.

I didn’t know there was debate as to obedience in such matters. I have seen enough priests comment on this topic to know what the documents teach. I submit your personal interpretation is in error.

Liturgy matters.

 

[Walking_Home]

This is like the old, “The Vatican never said I couldn’t BBQ in the choir loft.” ideas.

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It is sad—when things need to be spelled out to the letter.

 

[hoosiertoo]

Addressed to Stu:

You and a couple of other folks.

Join the party.

 

[hoosiertoo]

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It is sad—when things need to be spelled out to the letter.

It’s sadder - when one tries to live by the letter.

 

[Stu]

And I am not arguing either for or against the practice.

I’m merely arguing that one should cut one’s fellow parishioners some slack.

Pointing out one’s errors is a charitable act. How one goes about this is another matter. In that we probably agree. Most people, upon hearing that they are in error are usually appreciative of being corrected.

If my fly is down, please tell me. Better to pull it up then walk around looking like a fool.

Vivat Iesus,
Stu