Target, Which Cut Workers' Hours and Doubled Workloads, Shows the Folly in

[Peeps]

You mean pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.

I am by no means dismissing individual agency but sometimes we need to help and educate people so they can make good choices in life.

Mentoring young people is a good start.

There is nothing wrong with needing help sometimes.

I never said there shouldn’t be help.

In fact, many times in my post, I imply the need for people born into adverse circumstances to seek out mentors and advisers, helpers and teachers, doctors and pastors/religious people–to help them make wise choices that will increase the likelihood that they will succeed in life.

Another source of good help is relatives, especially parents (2), but also extended family. Of course, if someone chooses to estrange themselves from their family and reject the counsel and help of older and wiser relatives–they will be hard-pressed to escape their adverse circumstances.

But IMO, the “government” is NOT in any way, shape, or form, going to replace the one-on-one mentoring, praying, talking, advising, aiding, and digging in that a teacher, pastor, neighbor, policeperson, bus driver, Scout leader, club leader, coach, volunteer, doctor, nurse, neighborhood ice cream man, etc. can have on influencing a child to start out making wise choices and continue to make those wise choices.

Handing someone a check, a house, a bus pass, free food, free school–these alone will NOT lift people out of poverty. They do make it possible that someone struggling will come into contact with someone who can help them to make good choices that will get them to a better place in life. But the check, the food, the bus, the school–all of it just sustains a life of misery if there is no HUMAN adviser to mentor a person out of poverty and street life.

And of course, if the human adviser is there, but a person refuses to work with them and submit to their wise advice and practical help and make those wise choices that will help propel them to a better life–then…our freebies are only keeping the person alive in a life of misery and underachivement.

Of course, as long as there is life, there is hope. But we do a disservice if we only give “stuff”.

 

[Dan123]

The only place that the $302,400 additional costs can be made up is in increasing the price of what is ordered. Again, this is national averages; an 11.2% increase would likely not cover it, as there is going to be a loss in revenue of people being priced out of the market, or alternatively, ordering lower priced items.

Are you factoring in all the potential McDonald’s customers who also get raises when the minimum wage goes up and now have more money to spend in the restaurant?

My issue is that for some reason wages and only wages are the issue. I bet the prices of linens has gone up, but it hasn’t crippled McDonalds. I bet the price of rent and insurance and legal services and food and utilities and maintenance and licenses and so on have all gone up, and they’re still around. But for some reason if the people working there make a bit more money the whole thing is going to implode on itself? I’m skeptical. Low wages get subsidized by assistance programs, it costs all of us money when a business doesn’t pay reasonable wages. As I said above if I can get y’all to pay my workers for me I have lots of business ideas I could make work.

Given the repeated comments by employers that they have job openings but cannot find qualified workers, I would challenge that broad statement.

Always curious why free market principles only apply when wanting to pay workers low wages. If you have a position open and no one qualified is applying, offer more money. Offer more than the places the qualified people are working at or entice them in other ways. Somehow when someone has $9/hr and wants $10 they need to work harder, but when a company wants to pay $10/hr and the people with those skills want $11 it’s because those workers are greedy or because the company needs to be able to hire outside the country.

 

[StudentMI]

Another source of good help is relatives, especially parents (2), but also extended family. Of course, if someone chooses to estrange themselves from their family and reject the counsel and help of older and wiser relatives–they will be hard-pressed to escape their adverse circumstances.

Which not everyone has, or has but is estranged from for circumstances that were not their choice.

Are you going to address the two long quotes I shared from Catholic social encyclicals?

 

[Sarcelle]

But IMO, the “government” is NOT in any way, shape, or form, going to replace the one-on-one mentoring, praying, talking, advising, aiding, and digging in that a teacher, pastor, neighbor, policeperson, bus driver, Scout leader, club leader, coach, volunteer, doctor, nurse, neighborhood ice cream man, etc. can have on influencing a child to start out making wise choices and continue to make those wise choices.

Where did I say government was the answer? I never mentioned government at all.

I just mentioned that we need to help each other. As Christians we are called to help one another.

There is an attitude in society and even in this forum that the poor are undeserving because of personal choices that they made. But that is partly true.

Sometimes bad things happen no matter how much you try to do the right thing. It happens.

It happened to me. I was laid off four times in spite of exceptional employee reviews from my bosses. During times of employment, I made sure I saved enough to meet my living expenses for a year and had no debt. I had no medical insurance because I was unemployed and I was acutely aware that any medical emergency would wipe out what ever savings I had in no time flat. I doubt I am the only one.

If it happened to me I’m sure people would look at me and judge me as undeserving because I am poor I must have made some wrong decisions.

 

[KMC]

Are you factoring in all the potential McDonald’s customers who also get raises when the minimum wage goes up and now have more money to spend in the restaurant?

Why would you suppose then that this has not already happened? If, as you propose, there will be upside to raising wages for the business raising the wages, then why not have all businesses be forced to raise the minimum to $50 per hour?

My issue is that for some reason wages and only wages are the issue. I bet the prices of linens has gone up, but it hasn’t crippled McDonalds. I bet the price of rent and insurance and legal services and food and utilities and maintenance and licenses and so on have all gone up, and they’re still around. But for some reason if the people working there make a bit more money the whole thing is going to implode on itself?

Perhaps its due to the competition for those things you list. If my linens go up, I can change who I do business with for linens. If my rent goes up, I can move. There are multiple insurance companies and law firms I can shop for…they don’t all charge the same price.

However, if my labor goes up, there is no ability to seek lower wages. Might that not be the reason wages are such an issue? After all, when government raises the minimum wage, for right or wrong, it does not take into account the state of the business or the value of the work done.

 

[KMC]

If it happened to me I’m sure people would look at me and judge me as undeserving because I am poor I must have made some wrong decisions.

Thus the problem of generalized statements. Certainly some people have made bad decisions (not studying in school, doing drugs, being lazy, etc), but also certainly some people have had bad luck as you allude to in your post.

 

[Dan123]

Why would you suppose then that this has not already happened? If, as you propose, there will be upside to raising wages for the business raising the wages, then why not have all businesses be forced to raise the minimum to $50 per hour?

Because $15/hr begins to bring minimum wages in line with a livable wage, $50 is far beyond that.

Perhaps its due to the competition for those things you list. If my linens go up, I can change who I do business with for linens. If my rent goes up, I can move. There are multiple insurance companies and law firms I can shop for…they don’t all charge the same price.

They don’t but there’s a floor. You can’t get cheaper than the cheapest provider, and I’d bet good money that floor rose over say the last 10 years.

After all, when government raises the minimum wage, for right or wrong, it does not take into account the state of the business or the value of the work done.

Again lots of businesses would be viable if the minimum wage were say $1/hr. But that leaves taxpayers footing the bill for my business. I don’t feel entitled to making the taxpayers subsidize my business model, I’m baffled by those who think it’s okay.

 

[Calliope]

Congress has deemed it necessary to raise their own wages and increase their benefits package a number of times while minimum wage for the rest of us stays the same. Laws increasingly protect corporations and leave wage earners to the mercy of the market…while law makers make sure they get their increases and benefits.

Now corporations cut hour to 37 a week so they don’t have to give benefits but it make it very difficult to find/hold a second job. Retail very rarely offers its workers a regular schedule. It changes weekly so again, making it very hard to hold a second job. Rolling shift schedules at factories again make it nearly impossible to hold another job since the schedule changes constantly.

The cost of education has skyrocketed way past any increase in wages, yet more and more jobs demand higher education. The Walton’s have more money than they could spend in a century of living large, while so many of their workers are in need of government support, yet people claim it’s the lazy workers fault. It’s the companies that are actually being subsidized, to rake in the bucks while they don’t pay a fair wage…and they are gifted with tax breaks to continue more of the same.

All of these business rely on the “unskilled” labor to function. So the claim that the work the stockers, cooks and cashiers do isn’t worth more is the stupidest claim of all. THOSE are the people who’s work matters the most. I worked for Amazon unloading trucks. If we all walked out the company would be in BIG trouble, but I’ll bet a few executives could be cut fom the payroll and it would make hardly a dent in the functioning of the country.

How America has gotten to a point where it praises the few at the top and belittles the worker who keeps things running on a daily basis…I don’t know, but here we are. Low wage workers being told they don’t work hard enough, try hard enough, always have their hands out… blah blah blah ad nauseum.

I don’t care that Jeff Bezos is rich, but to claim that the people who build and sustain his wealth don’t deserve a living wage is ridiculous. We all count, every day, on the labor of the common man/woman. Saying that an hour of their time isn’t worth a tiny fraction of an hour of working time of any executive in the company is disgraceful. We are all humans, all of the same value, all worth dignity, fair wages, health care etc. Wage discrepancy has not always been anywhere near the levels it is these days.

My father was a laborer, but he earned enough for mom to stay home with the kids and to buy a house etc. It’s simply not that way anymore, because wages have not kept up with costs of living.

Try living a week without the (name removed by moderator)ut of so called unskilled labor, without the benefit of workers who make low wages. See how that affects your life and then come back and tell us how little their time and effort is worth.

 

[Convert3]

The salary of Jeff Bezos is $81,840, and has been for years. He doesn’t take payment in stock either. His wealth is strictly from the 16% share of ownership he has. The stock is only worth what others are willing to pay for it. He doesn’t set the value of his company. He’s not overpaying himself at the expense of his workers. They are free to market their skills with other companies if they want. No one is keeping them there.

 

[KMC]

Because $15/hr begins to bring minimum wages in line with a livable wage, $50 is far beyond that.

But this does not address my point: If, as you implied, increasing wages for workers will increase business for the employer, then doesn’t increasing wages even more mean still more business for the employer? If $15 per hour is good for everyone, then why not $16 or $17 or more?

They don’t but there’s a floor. You can’t get cheaper than the cheapest provider, and I’d bet good money that floor rose over say the last 10 years.

Is there a floor? Look at LED lights, or computers, or televisions…all are much cheaper than they were 10 years ago. Many large companies go out for bid for their business and require vendors to come up with 5% or 10% savings for each additional year of the contract.

Again lots of businesses would be viable if the minimum wage were say $1/hr. But that leaves taxpayers footing the bill for my business. I don’t feel entitled to making the taxpayers subsidize my business model, I’m baffled by those who think it’s okay.

I’m not advocating $1/hr…nor do I think its “OK”. My point, and I was precise in my wording, is when the government raises the minimum wage, they do not take into account the state of the businesses which they impose the higher wage on. Politicians, for the most part, would make horrible business people.

 

[Calliope]

Like I said, I don’t care that he’s rich. I care that the people who do the labor to build and support his wealth… all wealth aren’t paid enough to make ends meet. I’m not talking about living large. I’m talking about making rent and childcare payments.

American runs on it’s workers, yet has little respect or care for their basic well being. Work harder and longer is all we hear…from lawmakers who have better hours, pay and benefits that our taxes pay for.

People scream that they don’t want Medicare for all, but they also don’t want to pay slightly more for goods and services so people can buy insurance. Companies demand more productivity but offer no benefits.

You make it sound like the average person stands on an auction block and companies throw cash and benefits their way. Maybe where you live, but it’s not that way here.

 

[Calliope]

And when they don’t increase the minimum wage to keep up with the cost of living, they aren’t taking into account the reality of the workers.

Government should think about the overall well being of the country. Money is only part of it. Quality of life matters.

Wonder why so many kids are home alone? Their parents and grandparents are working two jobs. It’s a vicious cycle. Hard to help your kids with homework when you get home after their bedtime.

 

[Convert3]

I get what your saying. But running a business is not easy. Competition can put you under quickly if they can operate a leaner company. Look at all the malls closing because technology based companies beat their prices and efficiency. Globalization makes it difficult to compete when you can hire someone in India or China for a fraction of the cost. I’m hoping the supply chain vulnerabilities shown with the Coronivirus outbreak will lead to bringing manufacturing jobs home.

 

[KMC]

And when they don’t increase the minimum wage to keep up with the cost of living, they aren’t taking into account the reality of the workers.

There is an inherent issue that I would like your opinion on. Easier to lay out an example:

Person starts a donut shop. At first they are working off of loans, and maybe this owner is making $20K per year for a lot of hours of work (with their net hourly wage being much less than minimum). After many hours of hard work the business grows and the owner finds they need to hire help. They need to hire someone. Current minimum is $7.25/hr. Should the owner pay the $7.25 per hour, pay more taking into account the needs of the worker, and ignoring their well-being, or not hire anyone?

 

[Dan123]

But this does not address my point: If, as you implied, increasing wages for workers will increase business for the employer, then doesn’t increasing wages even more mean still more business for the employer? If $15 per hour is good for everyone, then why not $16 or $17 or more?

If a student athlete needs 4000 calories a day to keep up with their needs but they’re eating 2000 calories a day, they need to eat another 2000 calories. If someone said “well if 4000 calories is better than 2000 then why not 10,000!!!” they would be completely missing the point and certainly wouldn’t be contributing anything meaningful to the conversation.

I’m not advocating $1/hr…nor do I think its “OK”. My point, and I was precise in my wording, is when the government raises the minimum wage, they do not take into account the state of the businesses which they impose the higher wage on. Politicians, for the most part, would make horrible business people.

And as I said a number of times, not every business model works. If your business only works by paying wages people can’t live on, why aren’t you the horrible business person? If your business model includes “and the government will make up the difference with social safety net programs” that’s an issue.

 

[F_Marturana]

If it happened to me I’m sure people would look at me and judge me as undeserving because I am poor I must have made some wrong decisions.

Which is terrible. Medical events don’t just happen to people who made bad choices. So many people are in debt and face bankruptcy due to medical debt.

Simcha Fisher wrote this really great piece about when her family needed to go on food stamps.

The day I bought steak with my food stamps – SIMCHA FISHER

 

[EssentialBeing]

Could unemployment be a deliberate strategy to increase competition for the lowest paying jobs? In turn driving the pay rate down for those less skillful workers.

 

[StudentMI]

That’s similar to Marx’s theory of the reserve army of labour.

 

[otjm]

Are you factoring in all the potential McDonald’s customers who also get raises when the minimum wage goes up and now have more money to spend in the restaurant?

Certainly the poorer among us are not the only clients who dine at McDonalds, but a very significant number are. Raise the prices, and any raise the lower paid individuals seeing a raise are going to be impacted more than those who can eat at Mc D’s out of their pocket change.

My issue is that for some reason wages and only wages are the issue. I bet the prices of linens has gone up, but it hasn’t crippled McDonalds. I bet the price of rent and insurance and legal services and food and utilities and maintenance and licenses and so on have all gone up, and they’re still around. But for some reason if the people working there make a bit more money the whole thing is going to implode on itself?

Implode, no. Economists have repeatedly shown that a significant increase in minimum wage has several impacts; only one being price increases It additionally has the impact of reducing staff - meaning that people lose jobs. And Linen, to take your example, is not likely to take a 10% jump’ but it is 1/100th of the total that wages are. any increase in linen is going to have exceedingly less impact than the wage increase - which is in the range of a 60% increase when one adds the additional SS the employer pays - an additional 6.2% of wages.

Low wages get subsidized by assistance programs, it costs all of us money when a business doesn’t pay reasonable wages.

That only gets paid to those who qualify; a student (high school or college) working at McD does not receive any assistance.

Part of the argument in society is that the business owners are fat cats getting rich off the backs of their workers. I fail to see that the numbers noted - with an average profit of $150,000 is getting “rich” off anyone; no one I know can operate a business with a negative cash flow. And ask any owner of a McD how many hours they put in on the job and it isn’t going to be any 40 hour work week; if they average a 50 hour work week the owner is recompensed at a rate of about $59/hour.
If they average a 60 hour work week, they are making about $49/hour. In neither event are they “getting rich”.

And nothing ever gets said in the national conversation as to what raising minimum wage to $15 odes to anyone with a semi skilled job currently making $15/hour; how is it that semi skilled and unskilled work has the same recompense? And what of the person with more skills, working at $20/hour?

(continued)

 

[otjm]

(continued)

Getting back to Target, they are in direct competition with Amazon. They can only sell their goods for what the market will allow; if you don’t believe that, take a look at what happened to Sears, and what is happening to JC Penney, and a host of other retailers. Wages are going to be among the top costs such businesses incur. A 60% increase in that category will, guaranteed, cause businesses to close There is no magic; they either operate at a profit or they are gone. and internet shopping is already causing chaos in what was the mall shopping, with key retailers like Sears being their anchor.

I don’t have a good answer. When I was a kid, high schools had shop and related skill building classes for those who were not bound for college, but rather the workforce, and they entered often into jobs with decent middle class wage structures. Someone (actually, a lot of someone’s) decided that shop was either not necessary, or could be done somewhere else; and we have how many people who come out with a high school diploma and zero marketable skills; but they want to be paid as if they do. They, and a whole lot of people don’t care what small businesses pay; and they really don’t care if those businesses go out of business. They simply want what they want - a living wage. Yeah, I know about Jeff Bezos, who is rich primarily because of stock ownership. and in the last week or so he lost 4 billion dollars of net worth.

Venezuela has decided over the last few years that capitalism is wrong, and a state managed economy will distribute the wealth to the poor. How is that working out?

The bottom line: the law of unintended consequences still applies. I support Catholic Charities as their motto has been “A Hand Up, Not A Hand Out”.

I put myself through a private Catholic college and graduated in 1968; and I had a private loan of $800 when I graduated; minimum wage was $1.60 per hour. I lived at home (room and board) and worked 20 hours per seek in a grocery store at whatever the minimum union wage was (not a whole lot more) and worked full time in the summer for a business, plus working at the grocery store 16 hours a week. So it is not like I have no clue. I just don’t have an answer.