Tax us more, say wealthy Europeans

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The market rates are not set by billions of people. They are set by thousands of people in the position to set the rate.

They set those rates, therefore it is demonstrably not too complex to set. If companies can set it, so can other entities.

Were it otherwise, any area of conduct that the populace engages in would be deemed “too complex” to legislate.
You left out some key words in your reply which distort the meaning of what I said. Rates are determined the DECISIONS of billions of people. I get offers to borrow and lend every day. If it is my DECISION not to accept the offer, no transaction takes place and there is no market rate determined. Market rates are determined every second in many different places every day. Without a transaction there is no market rate, just a bid and offer.

Second, I also said that government cannot determine a FAIR rate. Government action is always way behind markets in timing. Yes, governments regulate many complex behaviors, and frequently make the situation worse. For instance, the Chinese government decided to regulate how many children millions of Chinese families should have. That decision was not about fairness, but control.
 
Jesus of course spoke about the difficulty the rich will have in getting into heaven. And at least this group of rich Europeans say they have more than they need. And are willing to pay more in taxes so the poor are not hurt as much by budget cuts and thus not forced to sacrifice disproportionately.

“None of us are in Buffett’s or Bettencourt’s league,” said the founder, Dieter Lehmkuhl, a retired doctor with assets of €1.5m (£1.3m). “We’re a broad church – teachers, doctors, entrepreneurs. Most of our wealth is inherited. But we have more money than we need.”

“I would say to Merkel that the answer to sorting out Germany’s financial problems, our public debt, is not to bring in cuts, which will disproportionately hit poorer people, but to tax the wealthy more,” said Lehmkuhl. “We are always hearing about savings packages, but never tax rises. Yet tax increases are a way out of this mess. That’s where the money is: rich people.”

“Something needs to be done to stop the gap between rich and poor getting even bigger.”

guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/29/tax-us-more-say-wealthy-europeans
It is quite interesting that in the article linked you see the picture of Luca di Montezemolo. It is also quite interesting that the main problem with taxes in Italy is associated with rich people evading taxes. You can increase the tax rate on the rich as much as you like but if you collect only from the lower classes your increases are just a tool to mock the poor. I would like to know how many honest taxpayers own Ferraris compared to the tax evaders that own the same brand. Maybe Luca di Montezemolo should go and give moral lectures to his customers more than making silly generalized statements. My comments here refer only to Italy because the OP talks about Europe and I am not going off thread discussing the USA.
 
Yes , I agree with you. They are not concerned as the moderate conservative about social justice teaching which we as Cathollcs were raised to be active in.
Remember all the Maxis and communist slurs dished out by the tea party people a year ago.
They roared like the dickens, you know, and like lions as Scripture says about the evil one looking to devour.They are a dangerous lot, my opinion. Peace, Carlan
They are dangerous because the believe in the right of property and the dignity of the human person? Socialism and communism are an affront to both, we have right to decry them loudly. The Popes have.
 
They are dangerous because the believe in the right of property and the dignity of the human person? Socialism and communism are an affront to both, we have right to decry them loudly. The Popes have.
Yes of course communistic socialism is, that wasn’t my issue, what was , was the way the radical right verbally abused the President of the United States of being that kind of socialist. And that is a lie. It was hate talk. Disgusting,! they are dangerous people. Excuse them if you are so inclined to buy into such ways. It is not my way. Peace, Carlan
 
The Democrats in general are advocates of the same kind of social democratic system that is common in Western Europe. POTUS Obama has played his role in this for sure, and has raised concern with his class warfare talk of making the rich paying their fair share and spreading the wealth around.

With several states of Europe now going bankrupt, and debt in the United States at alarming levels, it is a fair question as to whehter or not this is the path that America wants to take. Public unions and people with a vested interest in big government do not want to even contemplate this kind of dialogue.
So instead, we get their politics of fear-mongering about the danger on the ABSOLUTE right.
 
There’s an irony in how the tea party has far more in common with the pharrisees than Jesus, who was far more compassionate and socialistic than the pharrisees who plotted to murder Him.

Jesus urged us to render unto caesar that which is caesar’s, yet the tea party feels safe and secure in ignoring that sage advice as they follow the dictates of greed, bible in hand, with straight faces, and righteous zeal, tuned into el rushbo, their idol.

Who is more charitable, these fair minded Europeans, willing to render more unto caesar, or the tea party GOP, willing to pass austerity measures that affect millions of seniors and the poorest among us?

How anyone, much less a Christian, can even think today’s tea party has anything whatsoever in common with Jesus or His teachings is beyond me.

jomoco
 
There’s an irony in how the tea party has far more in common with the pharrisees than Jesus, who was far more compassionate and socialistic than the pharrisees who plotted to murder Him.

Jesus urged us to render unto caesar that which is caesar’s, yet the tea party feels safe and secure in ignoring that sage advice as they follow the dictates of greed, bible in hand, with straight faces, and righteous zeal, tuned into el rushbo, their idol.

Who is more charitable, these fair minded Europeans, willing to render more unto caesar, or the tea party GOP, willing to pass austerity measures that affect millions of seniors and the poorest among us?

How anyone, much less a Christian, can even think today’s tea party has anything whatsoever in common with Jesus or His teachings is beyond me.

jomoco
I think that this is quite bad political exegesis to do an undiscriminated attack on a group of people. This is neither fair, nor logical, nor Biblical.
 
There’s an irony in how the tea party has far more in common with the pharrisees than Jesus, who was far more compassionate and socialistic than the pharrisees who plotted to murder Him.

Jesus urged us to render unto caesar that which is caesar’s, yet the tea party feels safe and secure in ignoring that sage advice as they follow the dictates of greed, bible in hand, with straight faces, and righteous zeal, tuned into el rushbo, their idol.

Who is more charitable, these fair minded Europeans, willing to render more unto caesar, or the tea party GOP, willing to pass austerity measures that affect millions of seniors and the poorest among us?

How anyone, much less a Christian, can even think today’s tea party has anything whatsoever in common with Jesus or His teachings is beyond me.

jomoco
I’m not a Tea Partier, but I don’t see a whole lot wrong with their resistance to increased taxation. That’s not a question of “rendering to Caesar what’s Caesars” unless you think all wages belong to Caesar and he has a right to whatever portion of it Caesar sees fit. Do you? The Catholic Church certainly doesn’t teach that. I doubt yours does either, but perhaps you can cite where it does. We’ll see.

Concretely, now. How do you expect seniors to be adversely affected by tax rates staying where they are? Seniors are already the wealthiest single segment in this economy. How, exactly, are they going to lose if their tax rates don’t increase?

And very concretely, how do you expect the poor to be affected by the same thing? Do you really think increased taxes are going to be spent on the poor? What is this administration’s track record regarding the truly poor, that makes you think that? So far, it has all been middle-class welfare. Vote-buying.

I have only seen Tea Partiers on TV. Possibly some carried bibles, but I don’t recall seeing that. But I think some thought ought to be given to the fact that taxes don’t just come from nowhere. They come from people; people who have worked for their wages. I believe that nowadays, considering all taxation from all sources, people pay about half their wages for taxes already. Obviously, that reduces the amount they could spend on others who are more proximate to them than the uncertain group the government wants to benefit. And yet, oftentimes those who promote higher taxation don’t take into account that peoples’ “discretionary income” is where charitable donations come from.

You didn’t name your denomination, and perhaps you will do so still, but one really ought to think about the fact that Jesus’ exhortations were all and always to personal charity, not to statism. And the more the state appropriates, the greater is the propensity of government to reduce the churches to merely introspective entities that do no physical good for anyone, if even that. In those states wherein the government has done the most of that, the churches are shifted to the sidelines. Maybe in your church that’s viewed as a good thing, but in the absence of your disclosing its teachings to us, it’s difficult to believe that it does.
 
There’s an irony in how the tea party has far more in common with the pharrisees than Jesus, who was far more compassionate and socialistic than the pharrisees who plotted to murder Him.

Jesus urged us to render unto caesar that which is caesar’s, yet the tea party feels safe and secure in ignoring that sage advice as they follow the dictates of greed, bible in hand, with straight faces, and righteous zeal, tuned into el rushbo, their idol.

Who is more charitable, these fair minded Europeans, willing to render more unto caesar, or the tea party GOP, willing to pass austerity measures that affect millions of seniors and the poorest among us?
I think that this is quite bad political exegesis to do an undiscriminated attack on a group of people. This is neither fair, nor logical, nor Biblical.
It isn’t just bad political exegesis; it’s also poor biblical exegesis. Jesus didn’t “urge” us to render unto Caesar. It was a dismissive response to people trying to trap him.

What Jesus points out, in more than one place in the Bible, is that money is of this world - the secular world. We, on the other hand, belong to Him, not money or the government. Ironically, it is those who determine that Jesus’ call to take care of the poor means government should do it through taxation that are missing His point entirely. They are putting their faith in man-made institutions rather than God.
 
The Democrats in general are advocates of the same kind of social democratic system that is common in Western Europe. POTUS Obama has played his role in this for sure, and has raised concern with his class warfare talk of making the rich paying their fair share and spreading the wealth around.

With several states of Europe now going bankrupt, and debt in the United States at alarming levels, it is a fair question as to whehter or not this is the path that America wants to take. Public unions and people with a vested interest in big government do not want to even contemplate this kind of dialogue.
So instead, we get their politics of fear-mongering about the danger on the ABSOLUTE right.
Just mark my words , Darryl, you had better look deeper, it isn’t fear-mongering, this new right is nasty ,the conservative middle are not keeping their mouth shut about them for nothing, they are scared to death of them and I just don’t understand why the are biding their time.
Peace, Carlan
 
I think that this is quite bad political exegesis to do an undiscriminated attack on a group of people. This is neither fair, nor logical, nor Biblical.
Then why did Jesus exhort us to render unto caesar, feed the poor, and cure the sick?

Why does the tea party feel secure enough to ignore that advice, and promote the opposite?

Did Jesus exhort us to cut taxes, or pass austerity measures on the sick and aged?

Please explain what Jesus taught that backs the tea party’s position in any sense?

Is it your opinion that millionaires and billionaires can somehow squeeze their obese camels through the needle’s eye into heaven despite their greed?

Please enlighten this humble Christian as to how such miracles can be bestowed on the tea party, despite the Bible’s divine origins and teachings?

jomoco
 
It isn’t just bad political exegesis; it’s also poor biblical exegesis. Jesus didn’t “urge” us to render unto Caesar. It was a dismissive response to people trying to trap him.

What Jesus points out, in more than one place in the Bible, is that money is of this world - the secular world. We, on the other hand, belong to Him, not money or the government. Ironically, it is those who determine that Jesus’ call to take care of the poor means government should do it through taxation that are missing His point entirely. They are putting their faith in man-made institutions rather than God.
👍
 
Just mark my words , Darryl, you had better look deeper, it isn’t fear-mongering, this new right is nasty ,the conservative middle are not keeping their mouth shut about them for nothing, they are scared to death of them and I just don’t understand why the are biding their time.
Peace, Carlan
I think you may be overreacting, Carlan.

The majority of Americans want a smaller government with less services. That is what the Tea Party is for at its fundamental level - to rein in an overly expansive, debt ridden, bureaucratic government. If that is the new right you are afraid of, then you are in the minority.

The “conservative middle” (that would include me, I believe) aren’t “keeping their mouth shut” because they are “scared to death.” They are nodding in agreement with their basic principles, even if they disagree with some of the candidates.
 
Please enlighten this humble Christian as to how such miracles can be bestowed on the tea party, despite the Bible’s divine origins and teachings?

jomoco
Just how does raising taxes = easy street to heaven?

For some reason my bible doesn’t have that passage.
 
Then why did Jesus exhort us to render unto caesar, feed the poor, and cure the sick?
You are combining things that Jesus didn’t combine (i.e. charity and “render unto Caesar”).
Why does the tea party feel secure enough to ignore that advice, and promote the opposite?
Please show where the Tea Party opposes charity and/or where they have told anyone not to pay their taxes.
Did Jesus exhort us to cut taxes, or pass austerity measures on the sick and aged?
He was silent on the matter.
Please explain what Jesus taught that backs the tea party’s position in any sense?
He was silent on the matter.
Is it your opinion that millionaires and billionaires can somehow squeeze their obese camels through the needle’s eye into heaven despite their greed?
That has nothing to do with taxation policy.
 
It isn’t just bad political exegesis; it’s also poor biblical exegesis…
You are correct! When I said political exegesis I really meant Biblical exegesis for a specific political outcome.
 
Just mark my words , Darryl, you had better look deeper, it isn’t fear-mongering, this new right is nasty ,the conservative middle are not keeping their mouth shut about them for nothing, they are scared to death of them and I just don’t understand why the are biding their time.
Peace, Carlan
What is the “New Right”?

How are they “nasty”?

Maybe they are just trying to keep pace with the old 1960’s left? 🤷 You know, they ones that threw rocks, bottles, and molotovs at police, bombed police stations, and the pentagon, etc… Is that the “nasty” that you are talking about? What acts of violence and domestic terror has this yet-to-be-identified “new right” done that even matches up?
 
How about the fat rich bankers repent of their sin of usury?
I am going to stick with the example of Italy because the thread should be really about Europe and not the USA. Given the present status of the Italian banks I would say that we are not dealing with the sin of usury alone, but also fraud and outright theft. Just look at the case of banks not allowing the owner of a business to sell his business in order to pay for his obligations to the bank. By doing that the bank can take ownership of the property and sell it at a gain that is well above the sum that the present owner is in debt for, and the whole process is legal too. This kind of news is not coming from some tiny liberal magazine but from the state television.
 
I’m not a Tea Partier, but I don’t see a whole lot wrong with their resistance to increased taxation. That’s not a question of “rendering to Caesar what’s Caesars” unless you think all wages belong to Caesar and he has a right to whatever portion of it Caesar sees fit. Do you? The Catholic Church certainly doesn’t teach that. I doubt yours does either, but perhaps you can cite where it does. We’ll see.

Concretely, now. How do you expect seniors to be adversely affected by tax rates staying where they are? Seniors are already the wealthiest single segment in this economy. How, exactly, are they going to lose if their tax rates don’t increase?

And very concretely, how do you expect the poor to be affected by the same thing? Do you really think increased taxes are going to be spent on the poor? What is this administration’s track record regarding the truly poor, that makes you think that? So far, it has all been middle-class welfare. Vote-buying.

I have only seen Tea Partiers on TV. Possibly some carried bibles, but I don’t recall seeing that. But I think some thought ought to be given to the fact that taxes don’t just come from nowhere. They come from people; people who have worked for their wages. I believe that nowadays, considering all taxation from all sources, people pay about half their wages for taxes already. Obviously, that reduces the amount they could spend on others who are more proximate to them than the uncertain group the government wants to benefit. And yet, oftentimes those who promote higher taxation don’t take into account that peoples’ “discretionary income” is where charitable donations come from.

You didn’t name your denomination, and perhaps you will do so still, but one really ought to think about the fact that Jesus’ exhortations were all and always to personal charity, not to statism. And the more the state appropriates, the greater is the propensity of government to reduce the churches to merely introspective entities that do no physical good for anyone, if even that. In those states wherein the government has done the most of that, the churches are shifted to the sidelines. Maybe in your church that’s viewed as a good thing, but in the absence of your disclosing its teachings to us, it’s difficult to believe that it does.
Well let’s see, during WW2 taxes were raised far higher than they are now. Industries were made subservient to govt goals, along with the average citizen. Everyone was made to render unto caesar what caesar required to win the war over fascist forces.

Why is the war time today any different?

We are fighting a war, trillions of dollars in debt, yet the tea party screams no new taxes, no how, no way! Yet taxes now are about half what they were during WW2.

These historic facts are what paints the tea party as greed driven spoiled brats when compared to their fathers, who knew that true patriots pay the price of freedom, though for many of them, that price was their lives.

The contrast between then and now is starkly self evident.

jomoco
 
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