Teenage girls watching young gay men put on makeup. Is this harmful?

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Lea101 said:
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HomeschoolDad:
Actually, there should be a certain cognitive dissonance about being a close friend to someone whose behavior the Catholic Church teaches is mortally sinful. It’s as though there is this barrier, that you can only get so close to this person, and no closer.
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It depends on what this is. You keep lumping them with racists etc and that’s honestly quite an uncharitable thing to do.

Your gay neighbours may be in a sinful relationship but unlike racists or Hitler or a criminal, they aren’t hurting/hating others just because they’re gay.

Because of this simple difference, this barrier/treatment of people would be different in different scenarios.

If you’re telling me you would treat a racist the same way as a gay person, we got a bigger issue here.
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There is such a thing as “someone being a bad influence”. This has traditionally been something to which parents object, with regard to those to whom they allow their children to be exposed. Those weak in the Faith need to bear this concept in mind, in their own friendships. We need to be able to say “you know, this person is making me soft on Sin X, I’m starting to think that Sin X is no big deal, I’d better reassess whether this friendship is such a good idea”.
Lea101 said:
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HomeschoolDad:
Is that friend someone you’d marry? Would you want your child to marry someone like that?
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What does marriage got to do with it? Your daughter would marry a gay man?
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Of course not. I was referring to the other sins, such as racism, corruption in business dealings, and so on. In all honesty, I used those examples because these discussions often degenerate into back-and-forth on sexually sinful lifestyles, and there are other mortal sins besides sexual ones (though it is far more common for people to live lifestyles of fornication, adultery — and divorce and remarriage without annulment is adultery, what else could it be? — or active homosexuality, than it is for them to be rank racists or crooks). My wife once had friends who were weekend houseguests of ours, and let’s just say they had some rustic social preconceptions. Not terribly cultured people. The husband proudly told me “I ain’t prejudiced, I just hate n*****s”. That weekend didn’t end a moment soon enough for me. I told my wife that these are not the sort of people we need to be associating with. She liked having friends — I wasn’t that hard-up.
 
Lea101 said:
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HomeschoolDad:
I can “like” people whose lifestyles are as I described above, but again, there’s always going to be this barrier.
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How does this look practically if you more or less implied you wouldn’t be comfortable with your child being close with a gay person?
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No, I wouldn’t be comfortable with that. My son is 13. I want him to concentrate on positive role models who exemplify Christian (and preferably Catholic) virtues and values. I hold people such as Tim Tebow up to him as that kind of role model.
Lea101 said:
Or by lumping them with racists, criminals and Hitler (who’s both?) Your posts suggest that if she were to like them and think they’re ‘so nice’, she would excuse sin?
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As I said above, yes, such associations can make us “soft on sin”. Hey, I’ve been there myself. When you like and admire someone, there’s a “halo effect” that goes to work.

I guess the short answer is, you make your friends, and I’ll make mine. If you’ve got the stomach (as Our Blessed Lord surely did) to be able to be close friends with people who are in these sorts of lifestyles, you’re an adult, you can make your own decisions. But for myself and my family, I make other choices.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
As I said above, yes, such associations can make us “soft on sin”. Hey, I’ve been there myself. When you like and admire someone, there’s a “halo effect” that goes to work.
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I’m not denying that friendships can make one soft. But from my experience, this usually happens when the person doesn’t have a firm grasp on Catholic teaching in the first place (e.g. They don’t know exactly why the church teaches what they teach).

What I don’t really understand is if the right call of action is to distance yourself from them, or reaffirm your faith.
HomeschoolDad said:
In all honesty, I used those examples because these discussions often degenerate into back-and-forth on sexually sinful lifestyles, and there are other mortal sins besides sexual ones (though it is far more common for people to live lifestyles of fornication, adultery — and divorce and remarriage without annulment is adultery, what else could it be? — or active homosexuality, than it is for them to be rank racists or crooks).
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Yes, there’s a variety of sins. But because it’s a variety and they all don’t fit the same category, one would treat each situation differently, no? For example, I highly doubt you would immediately drop those friends if they were to casually say something like “my girlfriend and I just rented a place” with the same energy as you would to do someone who said “We absolutely adore Hitler”.

Avoiding people because you’re afraid of going soft the moment you have empathy sounds like a bandaid over a bullet hole, imo. You’re free to disagree, of course. It’s wonderful to truly love them and more often than not, you’re probably the only person in their lives who fully believe in Catholic teaching. It’s not so wonderful though, to be weak in your faith to the point where you discard it for a friend.
HomeschoolDad said:
No, I wouldn’t be comfortable with that. My son is 13. I want him to concentrate on positive role models who exemplify Christian (and preferably Catholic) virtues and values
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I think it’s fair to want your children to have decent role models. In this case though, I’m talking about your child’s best friend. How does this look practically speaking, out of curiosity? What would you say to make him stop being friends with him? Any teenager who isn’t Catholic/Christian would definitely host a variety of opinions that contradict the faith. A parent with your views would have to tread on eggshells, wouldn’t they?
 
pearleaf said:
I do have a dog in the fight when it comes to assumptions of masculinity. A sense of masculinity that is offended or can’t abide by a man wearing cosmetics is laughably fragile, as is a sense of masculinity that seems as rigid as many people make theirs sound.
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It is not masculine to wear cosmetics for the sake of looking pretty. That is a female tendency, nothing wrong with that if you happen to be a female. It has nothing to do with fragility, just a matter of black and white.
Then again, I was bullied growing up for not being typically masculine. I have straight friends who were also bullied for not being typically masculine. That creates real depression, real psychological harm.
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I was bullied too. We cannot choose the challenges that life presents us with, we can only choose how to respond to them.
As far as I’m concerned, the “traditional” image of masculinity must be shattered and replaced with a more modern and healthy image for the sake of men of all sexualities.
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I do not see what is healthy or masculine about this “modern image of masculinity”.
 
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Lea101 said:
Yes, there’s a variety of sins. But because it’s a variety and they all don’t fit the same category, one would treat each situation differently, no? For example, I highly doubt you would immediately drop those friends if they were to casually say something like “my girlfriend and I just rented a place” with the same energy as you would to do someone who said “We absolutely adore Hitler”.
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I might not drop them, but we couldn’t be the kind of friends who are tight as two coats of paint.

Actually, as far as the admiration of Hitler goes, I’d be willing to sit down with them, say “that’s an interesting point of view — in today’s world, people usually think of him as the apotheosis of evil, let’s talk about this, tell me more”. In the case of people cohabitating, if you would say anything, it would quickly degenerate into a fusillade of “we love each other, this is modern times, everybody does this, how dare you judge me?”. (Calling attention to the sin of others is summarily dismissed as “judging”, even though you have simply stated facts, not made a conjecture on the state of their soul.)
Lea101 said:
You’re free to disagree, of course. It’s wonderful to truly love them and more often than not, you’re probably the only person in their lives who fully believe in Catholic teaching. It’s not so wonderful though, to be weak in your faith to the point where you discard it for a friend.
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You do make a valid point. It is possible to look at it the other way, and think “they might not be such a good influence on me, but I can be a very good influence on them”. But I don’t advocate this for youngsters who are still being formed.
Lea101 said:
I think it’s fair to want your children to have decent role models. In this case though, I’m talking about your child’s best friend. How does this look practically speaking, out of curiosity? What would you say to make him stop being friends with him? Any teenager who isn’t Catholic/Christian would definitely host a variety of opinions that contradict the faith. A parent with your views would have to tread on eggshells, wouldn’t they?
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No, not at all, if it morphed into something like that, I would sit him down and talk with him, explain that while this friend may be a fine person, very likeable, fun to be with, and so on, bear in mind that he and his family do not believe in the things we do, and that this might influence some of the moral choices that person makes. That’s about all a parent could do.
 
It’s not bad it’s just different. Some men have more feminine qualities or interests. Some women have more masculine qualities or interests. Does that mean a women can’t do manual labor or can’t cut her hair short? People are different and what they wear on the their faces and hair is up to them. You don’t even have to be gay to be more feminine and want to wear make up. Not everyone does or should fit into the stereotype of masculine or feminine. Thankfully there is more diversity in the world
 
“Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.”

1st Corinthians 11:14-15
 
WingedHussar said:
It is not masculine to wear cosmetics for the sake of looking pretty. That is a female tendency, nothing wrong with that if you happen to be a female. It has nothing to do with fragility, just a matter of black and white.
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What about jewelry? Is it OK for men to wear earrings, for example? There’s a famous portrait dated 1635 in the Louvre of King Charles I of England with a big pearl earring dangling from his left ear.
 
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You can’t just escape the world and the culture. If you really wanted to attract other people to Catholicism, you need people who aren’t just set apart and rejecting the world, but people who are normal, who do normal things for fun, who understand the culture and who interact with people who may not live lifestyles you condone
 
Serious display of wealth and status involved with that particular earring seeing as a rare one-of-a-kind pearl is involved. With some things, it all depends on the mindset and purpose.

Painting your face to look pretty? Feminine.

Painting your face to better ambush your enemies in the woods? Masculine.
 
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WingedHussar said:
“Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.”

1st Corinthians 11:14-15
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Paul wrote some rather questionable things in 1st Corinthians 11. For example, he wrote:
7 For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. 8 Indeed, man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for the sake of man.
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Paul obviously thought that women are subordinate to and lesser than men.
 
Scripture is inspired by God. The problem is with your modern egalitarian notions, not the Bible.
 
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rosejmj said:
You can’t just escape the world and the culture. If you really wanted to attract other people to Catholicism, you need people who aren’t just set apart and rejecting the world, but people who are normal, who do normal things for fun, who understand the culture and who interact with people who may not live lifestyles you condone
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Yes… you certainly can escape the world and the culture. Like I said, it is great. But also, Moses and Joshua need each other. So do John and Peter. But to the point, letting young girls watch this stuff is, well, not exactly evangelization, is it…
 
I guess when men stopped wearing wigs and makeup it was an attack on Society too. Changing what we perceive as acceptable! Terrible! Society has been changing forever. So what if once again it’s okay for men to wear makeup? Gay men is much different than transgenderism
 
By becoming a cloistered monk or living off the grid. The thing is, unless you have a calling to leave the world entirely, I think it’s selfish. Christians are called to evangelize and if you are a lot person in the world, most likely you are called to in daily life in the normal world and in the culture and society you live in
 
When you have an actual argument instead of semantics, let me know.
 
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