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Freddy
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Still waiting for some evidence for that claim…
Teenage girls watching young gay men put on makeup. Is this harmful?
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Freddy
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@Lara, did you find those details?Lara:
Ah. I see what you did there. You made a point about gender identity! Well done.
Well, just send me contact details for whoever it is who speaks for whole of the gay community. Thanks.
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Lara
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There is no spokesperson per se, but I’ve not known any LGBT people whose beliefs have surprised me; their beliefs follow the same agenda, one whose worst ramifications appear in schools in the form of indoctrinating children as young as kindergarteners in gay culture and sex education, and in human rights commissions in the form of harassing business owners or undermining the rights of religious people.
However, I’m willing to concede Thorolfr’s point that not all LGBT people would encourage children to become one of them. They would, however, encourage all children to accept the sexuality/sexual expression of homosexuals, homosexual “marriage” etc…
And this is where we, of course, diverge. We, as good Catholics, find pretty much all of the LGBT agenda sinful.
However, I’m willing to concede Thorolfr’s point that not all LGBT people would encourage children to become one of them. They would, however, encourage all children to accept the sexuality/sexual expression of homosexuals, homosexual “marriage” etc…
And this is where we, of course, diverge. We, as good Catholics, find pretty much all of the LGBT agenda sinful.
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Lea101
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Not going to lie, your false dichotomy is pretty insulting. A Catholic girl can go on YouTube and watch a gay man teach her which mascara is good for her, then switch over to a straight woman who’s living with her boyfriend for some helpful hairstyle tips, and then switch off her phone and say a rosary before she sleeps. All of these actions don’t contradict each other.
I would also argue that practically speaking, you’re going to hit a roadblock here. “Dad, why are you showing me a video of this priest? I just want to know if this concealer is worth the money!”
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Well, first of all, the “gay thing” is becoming normalized, we are expected to shrug our shoulders and say “he’s gay, that’s cool, I’m straight, that’s cool too”. I really hate to see young people molded in this fashion by the media. We all know about Liberace (requiescat in pace), but for average folks in Middle America — his target audience — his obvious, flamboyant “gay” mannerisms flew right over the heads of pretty much everyone. For the longest time, in my teenage years, I was entirely oblivious to Elton John being gay — I just liked his music. Still do. So it’s not gay people per se that I object to — I have had several gay friends, coworkers, and even relatives, some “out”, some not. It’s the glorification and normalization of all things gay. For what it’s worth, I also object to male-female cohabitation being held up as normal, desirable, and sensible. Ditto for abortion, divorce-and-remarriage, and contraception. Ditto for the casual use of marijuana. And so on. So I’m not just singling out gay people.HomeschoolDad:
Not going to lie, your false dichotomy is pretty insulting. A Catholic girl can go on YouTube and watch a gay man teach her which mascara is good for her, then switch over to a straight woman who’s living with her boyfriend for some helpful hairstyle tips, and then switch off her phone and say a rosary before she sleeps. All of these actions don’t contradict each other.
I would also argue that practically speaking, you’re going to hit a roadblock here. “Dad, why are you showing me a video of this priest? I just want to know if this concealer is worth the money!”
I do not have a daughter to be watching things such as this, so it’s really a case of “not my circus, not my monkeys”. But as I said, my son and I have had many conversations about the kinds of things he is exposed to in the media.
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StudentMI
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Amen to that.
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Lea101
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This would be fair if you’re against sinful behaviour pertaining to homosexuality.
But in this context, one would need to have to explain why a man wearing lipstick is sinful.
This thread is basically focusing on what’s sinful and what’s not. We know homosexual sex acts is wrong, what I’m talking about is whether a man using makeup is inherently wrong.
From my understanding of Catholic teaching, there would be nothing wrong with learning how to tie a tie from a masculine presenting lesbian, or eyeliner from a gay man. If they’re spreading wrong ideology while doing it, that’s the issue here which is not what I was talking about.
Think about it this way: if your daughter has a gay friend in high school, would you object to them hanging out and him teaching her how to do her makeup for a school dance? Assuming that that’s all, of course.
Is your discomfort mostly about a man being feminine/girly? Or whether your kid is going to blindly accept everything about that person due to her interest in him, including his sins? Because the latter is going to be your problem no matter what she watches, and that’s usually a case for a proper Catholic foundation VS saying watching a video is wrong.
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Abrosz
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Correct. It is cool.
And I really love young people being educated by the reality.
Glorification and normalization are not the same.
That is fine, too. It is your right and prerogative to hold your views - as long as you do not denigrate and / or attack others who differ. Even the most rabid (WASP) white supremacist is entitled to his views, as long as he does not start to lynch blacks, Jews and catholics.
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Freddy
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Ah. OK. Then you were wrong to say so. And I’m not looking to win ‘debate points’. I just needed you to clarify that.
It is not necessarily sinful for a man to wear makeup. Traditional male roles would not have incorporated this. For what it’s worth, I am no big fan of anyone wearing makeup, but I tend towards what is unadorned, what is plain, what is authentic in life. That’s just me. Let’s just say that in the repertoire of acts and behaviors that I teach my son with regard to being a man, wearing makeup is not in that repertoire.
For those who are not very strong in the Faith, yes, familiarity with people who are practicing sinful lifestyles, even if that familiarity contains nothing sinful in itself, tends to blind one to the malice of that lifestyle. Call it a variation on the theme of “Stockholm syndrome”. If I have a gay couple as neighbors, and they are presumably not living chastely (please, no one chime in here “you can’t know what they do and what they don’t do”, it’s only common sense to assume that the vast majority of people in marriages and marriage-like relationships are sexually active), but darn it, they’re such nice people, best neighbors I’ve got, then if I’m not very strong and resolute in the orthodoxy of the Faith, yes, I’m going to come to think “sodomy couldn’t be too bad, after all, Don and Mike are really great guys!”. Same with heterosexual people in invalid, sinful unions. Same with my neighbors who are drug smugglers, racial supremacists (of whatever race), or militant atheists — “but they’re so nice”. I’ve heard that, on a personal level, Hitler was a pretty nice guy too. My point should be clear.
No, it is an aberration, an imperfection and deviation from nature. It doesn’t make someone a bad person, but it is an inclination towards sexual activity that Scripture tells us is an abomination. (Conceded, heterosexuals can commit those acts with each other too. They’re still abominations.)HomeschoolDad:
Correct. It is cool.
And I really love to see young people who have clearly defined concepts of masculinity and femininity.HomeschoolDad:
And I really love young people being educated by the reality.
No, they’re not. When you speak of two things, they do not become one thing. If I have bacon and eggs for breakfast (not today, it’s Friday), bacon stays bacon and eggs stay eggs.HomeschoolDad:
Glorification and normalization are not the same.
I am assuming that you are a faithful, orthodox Catholic who adheres to the teaching magisterium in all things — if I may ask, are you? The things I cited are sinful in Catholic teaching (though it can be debated just how sinful the occasional recreational use of marijuana is, there are various schools of thought). People who hold that these things are gravely sinful cannot be lumped in with those who are white supremacists (or, as I alluded to above, supremacists of any race, they do exist) — they’re just being faithful Catholics.HomeschoolDad:
That is fine, too. It is your right and prerogative to hold your views - as long as you do not denigrate and / or attack others who differ. Even the most rabid (WASP) white supremacist is entitled to his views, as long as he does not start to lynch blacks, Jews and catholics.
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StudentMI
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There is however an ideological component to this ‘education.’
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RolandThompsonGunner
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I guess the question is once we agree something is sinful, how are we supposed to act when we live in a society where Catholics, let alone orthodox ones, are a minority? Like, you can teach your son that men and women cohabitating before marriage is sinful and wrong, but you also have to recognize that he’s going to run into a lot of people in his life in that situation and he’s going to have to be comfortable interacting with them and not be weird about it.
Very well put. I think it’s fair to say that there is a vast percentage of people in our society — possibly a majority — who simply do not comprehend that anything can be sinful if (a) it’s legal or (b) it is commonly accepted as good (or at least not evil) by society at large. In the minds of weak Catholics, Church teachings that “go against the grain” of society are “laws”, “policies”, products of the imagination of old, celibate, out-of-touch prelates who don’t understand modern times and modern society. For many, the only real “sins” are those that involve violations of other people’s civil rights or harm to the environment.HomeschoolDad:
I guess the question is once we agree something is sinful, how are we supposed to act when we live in a society where Catholics, let alone orthodox ones, are a minority? Like, you can teach your son that men and women cohabitating before marriage is sinful and wrong, but you also have to recognize that he’s going to run into a lot of people in his life in that situation and he’s going to have to be comfortable interacting with them and not be weird about it.
Incidentally, the “truths that all men hold in common” part is pure, 200-proof Freemasonry.
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27lw
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It’s almost like faithful religious people have to live a double life.
We have to go to work seminars about things that are objectionable, and we are surrounded by people with different moral systems, but we would by the pariahs if we spoke out.
I think that’s a lot of the appeal of the “Benedict option” – you wouldn’t have to live a double life.
We have to go to work seminars about things that are objectionable, and we are surrounded by people with different moral systems, but we would by the pariahs if we spoke out.
I think that’s a lot of the appeal of the “Benedict option” – you wouldn’t have to live a double life.
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gam197
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This is about body features. Gay often keep themselves in top physical shape, are groomed impeccably and are fashionable so women may see them as attractive. Lesbians, no way.
Makeup on men would not be attractive so not sure about teen girls, it may be that since gay men are projected to know so much about fashion the teens think they also know the best makeup and makeup tips.
I would see if as harmful. It would hurt their image of a man. I’d steer them toward good female role models who also know makeup techniques.
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TK421
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I’m sorry but there is without a shadow of a doubt in my mind a vast disconnect between this forum and the average teenage girl growing up in a public school. Girls are frequently fascinated with attractive gay men and watching them do things together can excite their curiosity. Sure, not all of them, but a pretty substantial portion.
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gam197
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I think they feel safe around them so hugging and kissing is not a threat, often there is a need for close contact.
Maybe this is a clue for dads to be more affectionate with daughters.
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Abrosz
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This is the point when the discussion becomes futile. Of course I respect your opinion concerning the scripture, but I don’t share it. What you define as aberration is perfectly normal and natural in biology, and because the scripture is not a science handbook, there is no possible common ground. And I stick with biology.
Of course you may ask. The answer is: “Nope”. I used to be a believer and when I started to compare the teachings with the physical reality, I realized that they are incompatible. So I had to choose and I chose the reality.
Just a remark. I am not hostile to religion and Catholicism. When the teachings are sensible, I applaud them, and follow them. But when they are not, I stick with reality.
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Abrosz
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Not to mention, that gay guys would never rape a girl…
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