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TC3033
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Of what, how much each parishioner/family gives?
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Televangelist tells worshippers to keep giving to the church, even if they have lost their jobs during this time
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Sarcelle
Guest
I hear from members of the Assembly of God also asks for the W2 forms of their members to see how much income they earn.
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amcintosh
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Yeah, I would say that most evangelists have a good intent at sharing the Gospel, but their life and love for Christ ultimately falls apart in the end when there is a lack of doctrine, limited accountability, and when one spends most of their life professing to be “born again” and living based on misconceptions of who Christ is and how we can best center our lives around Him.
Evangelism is so popular in America and will continue to grow because it fits in with Americanism’s tenets of individualism, liberty and a distrust of institituionalism (whether political, cultural, or in this case, religious/ecclesiastical). Compared to mainline Prots, Evangelicals seem to lack doctrine and a thorough understanding of the Good News that they’re spreading, and blatantly misinterpret history and scripture to attack Catholics and some Prot sects. They’re blatantly misguided, even without inherently bad intentions. Francis calling them “separated brethren” doesn’t exactly help, but it’s not very appropriate to call them heretics in 2020, is it now?
Evangelism is so popular in America and will continue to grow because it fits in with Americanism’s tenets of individualism, liberty and a distrust of institituionalism (whether political, cultural, or in this case, religious/ecclesiastical). Compared to mainline Prots, Evangelicals seem to lack doctrine and a thorough understanding of the Good News that they’re spreading, and blatantly misinterpret history and scripture to attack Catholics and some Prot sects. They’re blatantly misguided, even without inherently bad intentions. Francis calling them “separated brethren” doesn’t exactly help, but it’s not very appropriate to call them heretics in 2020, is it now?
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masuwerte1
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The weekly bulletin from my wife’s Catholic parish reminded us that they still need our help, even when times are hard. That’s appropriate, IMHO.
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Jimbo
Guest
I wouldn’t bother with that.
I’ll take your word for it, and I’m sorry it happened. Parishes are full of humans and can do some dumb things. The nice thing is you actually have the larger Church to fall back on to know what you can and should do.
I think one should be particularly skeptical when you have any organization, be it a Church or otherwise, which has a seemingly super powerful leader who works on his or her own cult of personality.
The Church has worked fairly hard on that particular issue, I think, after some of the issues it had with Father Coughlin.
I’ll take your word for it, and I’m sorry it happened. Parishes are full of humans and can do some dumb things. The nice thing is you actually have the larger Church to fall back on to know what you can and should do.
I think there is a difference between a Catholic parish, Protestant Parish, or most local non-denoms asking for more money ( or even trying to guilt you into it) and a televangelist who seems to be willingly misleading folks. I remember Jim Baker selling ‘Condo’s for Christ’ back in the 80’s. There are some of the televangelists to whom I give the benefit of the doubt. There are others that seem little more than con men.
I think one should be particularly skeptical when you have any organization, be it a Church or otherwise, which has a seemingly super powerful leader who works on his or her own cult of personality.
The Church has worked fairly hard on that particular issue, I think, after some of the issues it had with Father Coughlin.
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VonDerTann
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Sorry to be late to the party.
I cannot comment on all parishes, only those I know personally.
Of those that I know, the parishes absolutely do track amounts given. Speaking as to my own parish, my present pastor has approached some particular people and told them he expected them to give more.
My parish also embarked on a renovation of turning a convent into a parish center. The cost seemed huge and not a particularly wise use of funds, considering that the uses to be made of this place were all being taken by the church basement and parish school.
Many parishioners seem to view this as a “white elephant.”
Most of all, I think new pastors are under pressure to show their dioceses tangible results after their appointments. What’s the easiest way to do so? Spend money. If it’s not a parish center, it’s a new pipe organ; or something similar.
My parish’s last capital campaign wasn’t even for anything needed then; it could be described as “give now, so when we need something we don’t have to ask.”
I cannot comment on all parishes, only those I know personally.
Of those that I know, the parishes absolutely do track amounts given. Speaking as to my own parish, my present pastor has approached some particular people and told them he expected them to give more.
My parish also embarked on a renovation of turning a convent into a parish center. The cost seemed huge and not a particularly wise use of funds, considering that the uses to be made of this place were all being taken by the church basement and parish school.
Many parishioners seem to view this as a “white elephant.”
Most of all, I think new pastors are under pressure to show their dioceses tangible results after their appointments. What’s the easiest way to do so? Spend money. If it’s not a parish center, it’s a new pipe organ; or something similar.
My parish’s last capital campaign wasn’t even for anything needed then; it could be described as “give now, so when we need something we don’t have to ask.”
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VonDerTann
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I also think the term “televangelist” includes a host of things.
It includes someone like Joel Osteen (who has written many bestsellers and who seems to preach an uplifting hope-filled message, which on TV at least does not appear to include requests for money).
It also includes Peter Popoff who has been thoroughly debunked (courtesy of the “amazing randi” years ago) as a charlatan and snake oil salesman, and whose whole pitch is basically a demand for money.
It includes someone like Joel Osteen (who has written many bestsellers and who seems to preach an uplifting hope-filled message, which on TV at least does not appear to include requests for money).
It also includes Peter Popoff who has been thoroughly debunked (courtesy of the “amazing randi” years ago) as a charlatan and snake oil salesman, and whose whole pitch is basically a demand for money.
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TC3033
Guest
Eh, it is what it is. I think they were frustrated to not hit a $70-$80K goal from last spring on an “additional” collection and were trying really hard to hit it before winter.
Edit: I was able to find it. After re-reading it was 10% should be given “back to God”, but recommended 1/2 of that was a gift to the Parish. And if a family paid less that that it could put them in the position of “owing” the parish…
I just thought the way we told how to go back in time and figure out how much we “back owed” fit in with the thread.
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Knowing a little bit about how the COJCOLDS operates, I am not surprised at this, but I do find it off-putting. It will never affect me, though, because I’m never going to be taking up the LDS religion.HomeschoolDad:
The LDS do have a form of verification. It’s an annual tithing meeting. A member meets the bishop or some other representative of their ward and reviews their tax returns to make sure they’ve given their 10% tithe. It’s one of the ways they determine “worthiness”.
Every parish I’ve ever heard of, “keeps track”, if for no other reason than to be able to provide that tax-deduction letter after the end of the year. I don’t itemize deductions — I don’t make enough money for that to be an issue — and now that my son no longer attends Catholic school (our home school is about as Catholic as a school can get), I don’t use envelopes in our new parish. I just donate cash, or since the recent health crisis arose, online funds transfer.
In some circumstances, I actually don’t have a problem with that. If someone is obviously wealthy but only puts in $20/week, there’s something wrong. If I were the pastor, I’d try to find some way — not in the confessional — to approach this person, and ask them why they don’t donate any more. I have no earthly idea how you would bring up such a thing tactfully. As I have said in other threads, I am “from New York”, so to speak, when it comes to spiritual matters, so I don’t offend easily — and if my pastor felt like I needed to donate more, I would take no offense if he said to me “here’s how it is, Homie, I need to know if you could find a way clear to donate more to the parish — quite frankly, we need the money”. If he did that, I’d do what I could, and I’d be happy to do it.
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VonDerTann
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Asking parishioners for money can’t be easy. Knowing the folks involved, they were white collar professionals but by no means rich, and had 2 boys in the parish school, so it’s not also like they weren’t contributing anything.
I see 2 problems:
I see 2 problems:
- When the diocese wants money it’s fair for people to ask, “is this going to pay for settlements of abuse lawsuits?”
- When the requests come constantly, for no apparent reason, or where, for example, a parish ends 1 campaign then starts another. Sometimes requests can come off as tone deaf. I really didn’t like my parish’s “give now so in the future we don’t have to ask.”
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VonDerTann
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Hey, ya can’t make this stuff up.
I see him on TV late at night peddling “prayer cloths” that appear to have no utility for anything.
I see him on TV late at night peddling “prayer cloths” that appear to have no utility for anything.
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john14v27
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Ministries and gathering places for the church do need financial help to keep the lights on, but this is different. Believers give if they can.
The prosperity gospel is so alien to scripture and should be avoided. Paul warned Timothy of this…
1 Timothy 6:3-10: If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
The prosperity gospel is so alien to scripture and should be avoided. Paul warned Timothy of this…
1 Timothy 6:3-10: If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content. But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
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Horton
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Yes every parish does keep track of people’s contributions if they use envelopes or checks. Or if they pay online, but that isn’t for determining how much a person “should” give, it’s for tax purposes. I get a statement every year. I don’t itemize either so I really don’t need one.
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Horton
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I don’t even want to see a statement on that. Way too depressing, just have to pray it goes back up and the folks taking care of it are wise. I’m getting a lot of mail from them so I’m certain they are doing something. I don’t understand most of it so I just trust they’re doing what they should.
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gohjedrek
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I would say it’s generally true except on the part of individualism. Recently, had a conversation with a baptised evangelical, she didn’t really have a strong individual faith because there’s a lot of congregational activities such as bible study, prayer and fellowship. It is rare to go into an evangelical church and not knowing anyone at the end of service, as compared to the catholic church. Community is a big thing in evangelical circles. While some evangelicals have conservative views on abortion, same-sex marriage, but the general theme is modernity. Tradition appears to be invalid and Scripture heavily emphasized, except for the monthly Lord’s supper.
I have less qualms against mainline protestants, but there are some doctrines that you might end up disagreeing with such as women ordination,same-sex marriage and abortion.
I have less qualms against mainline protestants, but there are some doctrines that you might end up disagreeing with such as women ordination,same-sex marriage and abortion.
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Onepr
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Kenneth Copeland is a recognized prophet in that denomination.
And prophecy does make non prophetic people uncomfortable.
And sceptical. That’s why saint Paul said to apply 1cor. 14:26. To non believers or the spirituality dead.
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Johann_du_Toit
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Con artists like Copeland are part of the reason I am not a Fundie and don’t believe in the prosperity gospel.
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BT3241
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I watch a man a a universal church talk tithes - he was promising God would give back ten times what they gave - people were falling all over each other trying to give money - I saw a guy buy an apple pie for 1000$ at this church - they are all a bunch of liars. I guess people believe they will be financially rewarded by God for their tithe. When you see these guys in 10,000 $ suits telling you to give them money there’s something wrong. I know Baptists who have to reveal to the church thier wages so the church can collect 10% or they get kicked out.
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new-kirishitan
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The Bible has warned us beware of false teachers, and there are more than plenty of televangelists who fit into that category. Not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” is a true Christian.
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White_Tree
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But if you don’t pay Kenneth Copeland, who’s gonna blow covid-19 away with the Wind of God?
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