The absurdity of atheism

[Bradski]

Well, at the time it could have been scrolls or a codex of bound leaves of pages, but, either way, I am not sure what your point is.

The Catholic faith is based on the teachings of Jesus. Now colour me confused if you will, but isn’t our knowledge of what He taught found in a collection of gospels collated into what is known as the New Testament. Which is in a book called the Bible.

Now when Jesus teaches us about heaven (in the bible), then unless we have access to anything He said which is not in the bible, then that is what your belief in heaven is based upon.

I’m sure that there were umpteen versions of eternal life available to all and sundry before the time of Jesus, but if I were to ask you how you know that your version is correct, then it is because that’s what Jesus taught.

That you will have eternal life. That you will have treasure in heaven. That rich men won’t make it.

And where is this confirmation found? In the bible. The words of God Himself. In this case in the form of His son.

So how do we know heaven is real? Well Jesus told us Himself. In His own words. It’s easy to check because…someone wrote it down in a book.

 

[Peter_Plato]

You claim that your invisible God is real, but all the other invisible Gods that people believe in, well those Gods aren’t real?

Let’s be very clear here. What those “people” believe in may be God or they may have some idea of some powerful being or force among many. Whether any of those “gods” are real or whether the people being surveyed with reference to their G/god have a plausible concept of God in mind is a question of metaphysics and not one easily answered. It might even be possible for different groups of people to have a similar idea of God though mistaken about particulars.

New York City exists and is real, but if you survey different people on what New York City essentially is, you will get many different ideas. The variance in the responses doesn’t prove NYC does not exist. It might be true that the “Gods that people believe in” are the same God, just that the people don’t have fully developed ideas of that God or are mistaken about some of their attributions.

As to invisibility. I have abstract ideas in my mind (and so do you.) Are you arguing those ideas are not real or not true merely because they are invisible?

 

[Bradski]

I was talking a mate in work last week about gods and deities and what people believe (he’s a Hindu) and he said this:

Let’s be very clear here, Bradski. What those “people” believe in may be God or they may have some idea of some powerful being or force among many. Whether any of those “gods” are real or whether the people being surveyed with reference to their G/god have a plausible concept of God in mind is a question of metaphysics and not one easily answered. It might even be possible for different groups of people to have a similar idea of God though mistaken about particulars.

He might be right.

 

[tonyrey]

I was talking a mate in work last week about gods and deities and what people believe (he’s a Hindu) and he said this:
He might be right.

All human concepts of God are inadeqate because the Ultimate Reality is in the words of Rudolf Otto the “mysterium tremens and fascinans” but a loveless God would be inferior to us! That is the message of Christmas.

I wish all active and passive members of this forum a joyful feast - regardless of your beliefs.

 

[tonyrey]

The Catholic faith is based on the teachings of Jesus. Now colour me confused if you will, but isn’t our knowledge of what He taught found in a collection of gospels collated into what is known as the New Testament. Which is in a book called the Bible.

Now when Jesus teaches us about heaven (in the bible), then unless we have access to anything He said which is not in the bible, then that is what your belief in heaven is based upon.

I’m sure that there were umpteen versions of eternal life available to all and sundry before the time of Jesus, but if I were to ask you how you know that your version is correct, then it is because that’s what Jesus taught.

That you will have eternal life. That you will have treasure in heaven. That rich men won’t make it.

And where is this confirmation found? In the bible. The words of God Himself. In this case in the form of His son.

So how do we know heaven is real? Well Jesus told us Himself. In His own words. It’s easy to check because…someone wrote it down in a book.

Jesus didn’t only speak; He established a community to communicate His teaching…

 

[tonyrey]

It was written in a book.

Oh wait, no it wasn’t, the apostles told people and they told people and then someone wrote it down and put it in a book.

Oh wait, uhm…

A book can be interpreted in many ways. That is why Jesus established a community with a leader to ensure that His teaching is correctly interpreted and that is why the Apostolic Church has survived for more than two thousand years and now extends throughout the world.

 

[tonyrey]

Of course we demand evidence. You believe in a God that is invisible to our senses.

You claim that your invisible God is real, but all the other invisible Gods that people believe in, well those Gods aren’t real?

Not all gods are equally credible and Occam’s Razor leaves only one God!

 

[PRmerger]

Of course we demand evidence.

But how is it then that you assert something without a shred of evidence?

 

[PRmerger]

I wouldn’t call that alien species God if it turned out to be true.

I would join you in that rejection.

As atheist BC Johnson asserts: “Such a God, if not dead, is the next thing to it. And a person who believes in such a ghost of a god is practically an atheist. To call such a thing a god would be to strain the meaning of the word.”

 

[PRmerger]

It was written in a book.

Oh wait, no it wasn’t, the apostles told people and they told people and then someone wrote it down and put it in a book.

Oh wait, uhm…

What are you trying to say here, mk?

Neither of the 2 things you say are mutually exclusive.

What is it you’re asserting with your last “oh wait”? Are you proposing that the CC is in the midst of changing its assertion that the apostles heard and proclaimed the kerygma and then some of it was put to papyrus? Are you proposing that the CC is going to change its position that “it was written in a book”?

 

[987mk]

What are you trying to say here, mk?

Neither of the 2 things you say are mutually exclusive.

What is it you’re asserting with your last “oh wait”? Are you proposing that the CC is in the midst of changing its assertion that the apostles heard and proclaimed the kerygma and then some of it was put to papyrus? Are you proposing that the CC is going to change its position that “it was written in a book”?

What I’m saying is that the story of Jesus is found in the Bible.

No one in the Catholic Church quotes Jesus unless it is written in the Bible.

 

[987mk]

the Apostolic Church has survived for more than two thousand years and now extends throughout the world.

Hinduism is about 5000 years old.

 

[987mk]

But how is it then that you assert something without a shred of evidence?

sighs

You believe in an invisible God that lives outside time and space.

If I insist a unicorn lives in my backyard, but only I can sense that it is there. You’re telling me that it’s irrational for anyone to challenge my belief and ask me to produce evidence that this unicorn is real?

Suggesting that the physical world points to us not surviving our bodily deaths is the same as believing that a supernatural God living outside of time and space is real…well that’s not comparable at all.

I do have evidence we don’t survive our deaths. A dead body is no longer living.

Do you have evidence that a specific supernatural God living outside of time and space exists? No, you don’t…none.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Not all gods are equally credible and Occam’s Razor leaves only one God!

Good point, all that much better because William of Occam was a Franciscan monk.

 

[tonyrey]

Hinduism is about 5000 years old.

Hinduism is not a universal religion like Christianity and in India it co-exists with the caste system which is incompatible with the teaching of Jesus that we all have a loving Father, the foundation of the principles of liberty, equality and - above all - fraternity.

 

[PRmerger]

What I’m saying is that the story of Jesus is found in the Bible.

Yes, yes it is.

And the implication of this is…what, exactly?

No one in the Catholic Church quotes Jesus unless it is written in the Bible.

Well, no one quotes extra-biblical sources and asserts that what Jesus said there is true.

People only use what the CC has declared to be an inspired text as being what Jesus actually said.

 

[PRmerger]

sighs

You believe in an invisible God that lives outside time and space

Yes.

And you believe that nothing exists after death.

These are your very own words:

I guess I have no evidence that there is nothing at death.

Yet you believe in nothing at death.

Despite never being able to demonstrate this in a laboratory.

How egregious!

And curious!

And amusing.

 

[PRmerger]

So how do we know heaven is real? Well Jesus told us Himself. In His own words. It’s easy to check because…someone wrote it down in a book.

No, Bradski.

We don’t get our doctrines from a book, no matter how holy.

As our pope said, the Christian faith is not a religion of the book.

The Catholic faith was whole and entire before a single word of the NT was ever put to writ.

As such, the Bible reflects our faith.

NOT: we get our faith from what the Bible says.

Our faith comes from Christ, through his apostles, to the Church.

So, regarding heaven, we know it exists because we trust the words of Christ and His Body, the Catholic Church.

Not to mention, it is a reasonable conclusion based on the logic of a God who loves us and that ontologically we are made for union with Him.

 

[PRmerger]

And in regard to term atheism, from a page to which you linked:

‘If such objective evidence is not found, conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that a God with these properties does not exist.’

That seems entirely reasonable. In fact, if you inserted any noun in the place of ‘God’ then it would be something with which I’m sure you would agree.

Right.

So please tell Thinking Sapien this.

He is attempting an equivocation regarding the term “atheist”.

And before you start typing out ‘Multiple Universes’ as a replacement for ‘God’, you need to recognise the difference between something that is claimed to definitely exist and something that is being proposed as a possibility.

Would that you were consistent about this and had the same degree of skepticism/open-mindedness.

As it stands right now, you reject any argument for God until you have 100% certainty–the arguments are guilty until proven innocent–but accept the arguments for the multiverse–innocent until proven guilty.

Oh, would that there were some consistency here!

 

[PRmerger]

Just take my “reminders” as a declaration to the lurkers that there’s been previous discussion. I have often but do not always quote or provide links back to those previous discussion.

Okey dokey.

I’m stating my interpretation of the above in the hopes of avoiding the discovery several messages later that we are not discussing the same thing. My understanding of what you are saying above is that “all people that identify as atheist are people that make the assertion that God does not exists.” Do you find that statement to be synonymous with what you said above?

No.

I am saying that even if atheists here profess, “Well, we really aren’t making a positive assertion. We’re simply saying there’s not enough evidence to declare God to exist”…it’s an obfuscation.

The reality is: atheism declares that God does not exist.