The Absurdity of Atheism

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NM505StKate said:
I like honest discussion. I am enjoying the way this is flowing. I question because it is fair to do so. One should seek the truth yes? Then why the conflict?
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Why do you claim to be Catholic in your profile religion?
 
Nixbits said:
How can you seriously ask this question when, in post after post, people have pointed out that this is not the definition of ‘atheist’ that they themselves use?
I am an atheist and no, I don’t agree with your definition.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I am here to learn more about the religion in which I was raised, and to try to understand why theists believe what they believe.
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Well if every atheist has their own definition of what atheism means then how can you have a logical discussion about it?
 
Do I have to bring up the dictionary again? Atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. Here is something from the American Atheists: atheists.org/activism/resources/what-is-atheism

I was raised Catholic. I am questioning right now. If my questioning leads to atheism then so be it. I follow where the evidence leads.
 
NM505StKate said:
Do I have to bring up the dictionary again? Atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. Here is something from the American Atheists: atheists.org/activism/resources/what-is-atheism

I was raised Catholic. I am questioning right now. If my questioning leads to atheism then so be it. I follow where the evidence leads.
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You’ve are clearly leading torwards atheism now. What is the evidence that has lead you there thus far?
 
NM505StKate said:
Do I have to bring up the dictionary again? Atheist: a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods. Here is something from the American Atheists: atheists.org/activism/resources/what-is-atheism

I was raised Catholic. I am questioning right now. If my questioning leads to atheism then so be it. I follow where the evidence leads.
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I’ve seen you ask for proof from people multiple times. Are you asking for proof because you really are seeking it?

Or are you asking to be argumentative and try and pick apart every response to that question?
 
NM505StKate said:
I like honest discussion. I am enjoying the way this is flowing. I question because it is fair to do so. One should seek the truth yes? Then why the conflict?
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The conflict arises from confusion.

You call yourself Catholic and then talk like an atheist.

How does that encourage a positive relationship with other posters?

Is it that you like confusing others as to how you really think?

Why not find a noun more properly descriptive of your philosophy, which isn’t Catholic?
 
tonyrey said:
If we are reasonable we choose not to believe rather than have lack of belief thrust upon us! Unless, of course, we are helpless pawns in the game of life - in which case our lack of belief is worthless…
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And what do you know about the conscious and the subconscious parts of the mind? Nothing, I suspect. If someone shows you a picture of your family, you do NOT “choose” to recognize their faces. The recognition is not “thrust” upon you from the outside. It is your own mind which does the work. The word “choose” is a conscious process, inapplicable to “beliefs”. Your subconscious mind evaluated the evidence pro and con… and presents your conscious mind with the verdict. Is that all new to you? It should not be, because I have seen it explained to you several times. Looks like you still don’t get it.
 
owr39 said:
The waters are getting muddy here. Before I was even in this discussion I felt the definitions were pretty simple…
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Atheist - You believe God doesn’t exist. You believe we don’t have a creator.

Can we agree that those are pretty acceptable definitions?
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Probably not. If you changed it to “You don’t believe God exists. You don’t believe we have a creator” you would probably get more acceptance (see the difference). Someone might see having a creator as a possibility but hasn’t been convinced of it yet. This is a bit different from a person that is convinced that we don’t have a creator.
owr39 said:
Well if every atheist has their own definition of what atheism means then how can you have a logical discussion about it?
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How about using something like the following:
  • Do you claim to know that God or gods exists?
  • Do you claim to know that no God or gods exists?
 
owr39 said:
The waters are getting muddy here. Before I was even in this discussion I felt the definitions were pretty simple…

Theist - You believe in God. You believe we have a creator.

Agnostic - You aren’t sure if God exists. Unsure how we were created.

Atheist - You believe God doesn’t exist. You believe we don’t have a creator.

Can we agree that those are pretty acceptable definitions?
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Nope, I think you can’t, as the way someone self-identifies is always up to them, not to anyone else or to any dictionary.

But 🙂 if we take a standard definition of atheism (OED), “disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods”, it differs from yours in (a) it’s a lack of belief not a belief (b) it’s not limited to a lack of belief specifically in God but to all deities (c) it’s not limited to a lack of belief in creator deities.
I agree, nobody can win this argument. Which is why I think it’s funny someone is repeatedly demanding proof.
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Looking at the debate, both sides are aware that they can’t prove their own position, and so it’s ended up in what politicians call negative campaigning.

I’d have thought that the purported positive benefits of a life of theism or atheism would be more entertaining, but then to me absurdity is highly beneficial to health, an absurd world is a better world, so there you go, what do I know.
 
Solmyr said:
And what do you know about the conscious and the subconscious parts of the mind? Nothing, I suspect. If someone shows you a picture of your family, you do NOT “choose” to recognize their faces. The recognition is not “thrust” upon you from the outside. It is your own mind which does the work. The word “choose” is a conscious process, inapplicable to “beliefs”. Your subconscious mind evaluated the evidence pro and con… and presents your conscious mind with the verdict. Is that all new to you? It should not be, because I have seen it explained to you several times. Looks like you still don’t get it.
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I don’t know if people talk about the conscious and unconscious any more. But, I agree that certain actions are voluntary and others not so. If I ask you to put your hand up, you have a choice as to whether you put it up or not. If I ask you to feel the pressure of the chair on your back, you will do so automatically, if everything is “wired” right. There is no unconscious evaluation that weighs pros and cons on an intellectual level. That sort of stuff happens with sensory experience. We make sense of things in our own way based on common human symbols and ideas, modified and broadened depending on our relationships. One chooses one’s beliefs to the extent that one pursues or avoids certain paths to knowledge and/or ignorance. God grants us certain graces which we can reject. You are here for some reason that you may not yet understand. I don’t call those aspects of ourselves as unconscious. We see the world, ourselves included, only darkly. It takes a lifetime to know ourselves. That said we do have a free will, as finite as it may be. Not sure if I’m making sense to you
 
Solmyr said:
If we are reasonable we choose
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Your sharp differentiation of the conscious and the subconscious doesn’t fit the facts. We can examine our beliefs regardless of their origin and choose to accept or reject them according to our assessment of their cogency.

BTW Your personal comments merely detract from your intellectual reputation on this forum. If your argument is worth anything it doesn’t need to be supported by elementary fallacies…
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Aloysium said:
One chooses one’s beliefs to the extent that one pursues or avoids certain paths to knowledge and/or ignorance. God grants us certain graces which we can reject. You are here for some reason that you may not yet understand. I don’t call those aspects of ourselves as unconscious. We see the world, ourselves included, only darkly. It takes a lifetime to know ourselves. That said we do have a free will, as finite as it may be. Not sure if I’m making sense to you
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If you grow up in a Hindu society being taught about the Hindu faith, you will automatically decide whether the information you are being given is true or not. You cannot, if you are being intellectually honest, choose to believe or not.

But then, you will be unaware of other belief systems. If you are taught about two faiths, Hinduism and Christianity you will automatically decide if one is true or both are false.

As you said, you choose the direction you want to take. Which by definition, reduces the amount of knowledge available. Which is not a criticism. We’re all in the same boat. We can only work with what we are given.
 
Bradski said:
If you grow up in a Hindu society being taught about the Hindu faith, you will automatically decide whether the information you are being given is true or not.
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If this is true, why are there so many conversions between religions?
You cannot, if you are being intellectually honest, choose to believe or not.
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But then, you will be unaware of other belief systems. If you are taught about two faiths, Hinduism and Christianity you will automatically decide if one is true or both are false.
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As you said, you choose the direction you want to take. Which by definition, reduces the amount of knowledge available. Which is not a criticism. We’re all in the same boat. We can only work with what we are given.
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However, what we are given increases every day.
 
Aloysium said:
I don’t know if people talk about the conscious and unconscious any more.
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Do not confuse “unconscious” with the “subconscious”, the workings of the “grey cells” with the “white cells”.
Aloysium said:
One chooses one’s beliefs to the extent that one pursues or avoids certain paths to knowledge and/or ignorance.
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You can choose to explore a hypothesis, that is obviously true. But your feelings, preferences, tastes, beliefs are not subject to volitional control.
 
davidv said:
If this is true, why are there so many conversions between religions?
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I must admit to being surprised at this:

Combined with the 44% of the public that currently espouses a religion different than their childhood faith, this means that roughly half of the U.S. adult population has changed religion at some point in their life. pewforum.org/2009/04/27/faith-in-flux/

And it seems that Catholicism has taken the biggest hit, around 10% of Catholics changing or losing their faith.
 
Bradski said:
I must admit to being surprised at this:

Combined with the 44% of the public that currently espouses a religion different than their childhood faith, this means that roughly half of the U.S. adult population has changed religion at some point in their life. pewforum.org/2009/04/27/faith-in-flux/

And it seems that Catholicism has taken the biggest hit, around 10% of Catholics changing or losing their faith.
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Probably because Catholicism, unlike many other brands of Christianity, for example, actually makes demands of its members.
 
littlestsouls2 said:
Probably because Catholicism, unlike many other brands of Christianity, for example, actually makes demands of its members.
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A very derogatory statement to make of other people about whom I’d assume have as strong a faith as do you.
 
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