The All-Knowing Creates the Hell bound?

[Lokadottir]

So this is my favorite theology/philosophy question:

1. God is omniscient, knowing past, present, and future.
2. God wants all humans to go to Heaven.

How can these two hold at once?
If God knows past, present, and future how can God create a human whose actions will lead to damnation? For these would be the result of free will but these actions would be known by God already.

This leads to three possibilities:

1. God is not truly omniscient.
2. God does not desire all his creations to reach heaven.
3. All humans, even those deemed evil, are, in fact, saved.

How can these be reconciled?

 

[Dave_B]

There is a fouth possibility.

God desires all people to reach heaven but gives people free will.

Some people by choice chose to refuse to enter heaven.

Hell is an individual’s choice. To some they chose not to be in God’s presence.

 

[Lokadottir]

There is a fouth possibility.

God desires all people to reach heaven but gives people free will.

Some people by choice chose to refuse to enter heaven.

Hell is an individual’s choice. To some they chose not to be in God’s presence.

Yes however if God creates someone he will know their future actions the same way He knows the present, for if He exists in all time past, present, and future all are equal. So yes it’s their decision but God would make a creation that would be in hell . This is counter to God’d desire for all men to reach heaven. Although God grants free will, He has His own will as well. How could God create a man bound for hell? This would be action against His own will.

 

[Euwe]

God created all people and each creation has free will.
Each person has the free choice to accept or reject God.

Therefore each person, not God, is solely responsible for their individual eternal fate.

 

[Euwe]

Yes however if God creates someone he will know their future actions the same way He knows the present, for if He exists in all time past, present, and future all are equal. So yes it’s their decision but God would make a creation that would be in hell . This is counter to God’d desire for all men to reach heaven. Although God grants free will, He has His own will as well. How could God create a man bound for hell? This would be action against His own will.

You’re assuming that fore knowledge contradicts free will.
It doesn’t.

Defying God’s will, we are told, condemns man.

Therefore you are correct to say that God does want all people to reach heaven. However by defying God’s will they run the serious risk of not reaching heaven.

 

[marty1818]

So this is my favorite theology/philosophy question:

1. God is omniscient, knowing past, present, and future.
2. God wants all humans to go to Heaven.

God gives us free will to decide whether we want to have a relationship with Him or reject Him. He wants us all to get to heaven, but He’s not forcing it on anyone because that would violate our free will. Wanting something does require you to do it.

 

[Lokadottir]

God gives us free will to decide whether we want to have a relationship with Him or reject Him. He wants us all to get to heaven, but He’s not forcing it on anyone because that would violate our free will. Wanting something does require you to do it.

Can/would God perform actions that he know would impede his will?
I can perform an action (having philosophical debates rather than studying) that impedes my will (getting into Yale). HOWEVER, God is supposedly a perfect being. Therefore actions that impede His final will seem illogical.

 

[Nige90]

All thoughts of God are actions. And so, from the moment He “thinks” or knows us He loves us. To stop the creation of someone or something that He loves would go against His nature as He is love.

Before we are thought of/created we have no potential because we do not exist so you can’t know if “nothing” will be saved or not because it is nothing. And so it is at the conception of that person that God will know their future and everything it holds including their potential choice to deny God and so choose not to be in His presence.

This makes sense in my head, I hope it makes some sense written out. Please correct me if anything is out of place.

God bless

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Can/would God perform actions that he know would impede his will?
I can perform an action (having philosophical debates rather than studying) that impedes my will (getting into Yale). HOWEVER, God is supposedly a perfect being. Therefore actions that impede His final will seem illogical.

God cannot act against his own will; that would be logically inconsistent. You cannot use yourself as an example from which to judge God, as he is far above our comprehension.

God creates everyone willing that they come to Him in Heaven. That being said, he also desires that we love him. Since love can only be given freely (as an act of will) he gave us free will so that we could chose to love him. Unfortunately, a side affect of that free will is that, while we can chose to love God, we can also chose -not- to love him. This rejection of God is the root cause of a person choosing Hell over Heaven.

So, yes, God allows people to be created knowing that they will go to Hell. That being said, they are going to Hell as a result of their own choices, not because God wills, but rather in spite of the fact that God wants all people to come to him.

Basically, your saying that because God gave us the choice to reject him, he’s logically inconsistent, which is a logical fallacy; the premise in no way supports the conclusion.

 

[Lokadottir]

All thoughts of God are actions. And so, from the moment He “thinks” or knows us He loves us. To stop the creation of someone or something that He loves would go against His nature as He is love.

Before we are thought of/created we have no potential because we do not exist so you can’t know if “nothing” will be saved or not because it is nothing. And so it is at the conception of that person that God will know their future and everything it holds including their potential choice to deny God and so choose not to be in His presence.

This makes sense in my head, I hope it makes some sense written out. Please correct me if anything is out of place.

God bless

You know what: Bravo and thank you!
You by no means have converted me, but I have asked this questions of many priests and theology teachers and they all have fallen short! You sir/ma’am have made the best explanation I have ever heard for this.
However one could get into the paradox of how time behaves when one exists throughout or outside of time. Does God know what his own actions will be before he performs them? Does he view a sort of quantum universe where all possibilities are visible?
Does anyone else’s head hurt?

 

[Lokadottir]

God cannot act against his own will; that would be logically inconsistent. You cannot use yourself as an example from which to judge God, as he is far above our comprehension.

God creates everyone willing that they come to Him in Heaven. That being said, he also desires that we love him. Since love can only be given freely (as an act of will) he gave us free will so that we could chose to love him. Unfortunately, a side affect of that free will is that, while we can chose to love God, we can also chose -not- to love him. This rejection of God is the root cause of a person choosing Hell over Heaven.

So, yes, God creates people knowing that they will go to Hell. That being said, they are going to Hell as a result of their own choices, not because God wills, but rather in spite of the fact that God wants all people to come to him.

Basically, your saying that because God gave us the choice to reject him, he’s logically inconsistent, which is a logical fallacy; the premise in no way supports the conclusion.

You put words in my mouth. I was giving myself as an IMPERFECT example and saying that God (a highest being) would NOT act against his will. Which is the point of this thread.
I’m aware of church doctrine concerning free will.
What I’m asking is why God would choose to create beings bound for hell? This is about the contradiction between God’s desire for men to reach heaven and the action of creating beings he KNOWS will go to hell because he is omniscient. Nige90 answered this very well. Do you concur with him/her?

 

[Nige90]

The workings of time or the lack of time in eternity (the dwelling of God) has interested me a great deal recently, but if I’m honest, ironically I haven’t found the time to give it some proper thought. So I won’t attempt to answer that.

I don’t think we could possibly ever imagine quite how time or the lack of time would work in eternity as it is outside of time. And everything in the universe that we live in relies on time in one way or another; whether that be the sale by date on an apple to the full rotation of earth around the sun marking one year, and that is just in our small galaxy… and now my head hurts.

 

[Lokadottir]

The workings of time or the lack of time in eternity (the dwelling of God) has interested me a great deal recently, but if I’m honest, ironically I haven’t found the time to give it some proper thought. So I won’t attempt to answer that.

I don’t think we could possibly ever imagine quite how time or the lack of time would work in eternity as it is outside of time. And everything in the universe that we live in relies on time in one way or another; whether that be the sale by date on an apple to the full rotation of earth around the sun marking one year, and that is just in our small galaxy… and now my head hurts.

Sorry there!
But perhaps pursuing all possibilities can only lead to greater wisdom?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

You put words in my mouth. I was giving myself as an IMPERFECT example and saying that God (a highest being) would NOT act against his will. Which is the point of this thread.
I’m aware of church doctrine concerning free will.
What I’m asking is why God would choose to create beings bound for hell? This is about the contradiction between God’s desire for men to reach heaven and the action of creating beings he KNOWS will go to hell because he is omniscient. Nige90 answered this very well. Do you concur with him/her?

Actually, I do not. I agree with the basic premise, however, I disagree with his assertion that God does not know the person before they are created. Actually, quite the opposite is true. Scripture tells us (Before you were formed int eh womb, I knew you), and logical consistency tells us (an omniscient God must know all things, past present and future in order to be omniscient), that God knows all of us prior to our creation. He knew all of us prior to what we perceive as the moment of creation. And, sadly, he knew that there would be those who would reject him.

For starters, you are conflating knowledge of the outcome with the initial intention of the outcome. God does not create anyone “bound for Hell”. God creates everyone to spend eternity with Him. Unfortunately, free will allows us to act against this purpose, and chose the other option. What you’re saying seems to suggest that in order for God to be good, he should un-create everyone who rejects him. On this point, I will refer back to Nige90, with his assertion that, once created, God loves the being so much that he will not un-create them, no matter how vehemently they reject him. (Proof of this seen in Satan, the being who basically exists to fully reject God)

“Knowing” that someone will go to Hell does not change the fact that Hell is chosen freely; and, while is hurts God; he would never undo his act of creation simply because the creation rejected him. Similarly, to not create someone simply because they’ll reject you would also violate the principle of free will, because the choice is meaningless if you only give it to people who will chose correctly. (This could be compared to a poll. Poll results are meaningless if you select your pool only from those people who agree with your desired outcome.)

As an addendum, I would like to state that I am not a theologian; and some of what I have said here could be wrong; but I cannot agree with Nige’s assertion that God does not know someone prior to their creation.

 

[Nige90]

Of course these things should be looked at, and certainly from a Christian perspective I’d say there is an obligation to. As to search for the truth is to search for the creator of truth, who is truth Himself

 

[jritenour]

Hi Lokkadottir,

Thanks for asking these questions. An RC Priest I was listening to explained that God has no past, no future, only present. He is not a created being like us. So, things don’t happen for Him as they do for us. If you believe this, then you realize He is in charge and knows what He is doing.

As far as ‘why’ He does things, you would have to know what God knows which is impossible for us to fully know. I’m not sure if you are a parent are not but when I was a certain age they did things that made absolutely no sense. Now, that I’ve matured in that regard, I understand them perfectly.

There is the question of the Trinity which in my experience cannot be explained fully in human terms. I have accepted it. I figure if there can be 3 in 1 and 1 in 3, he can do many un-seemingly things and make them reality all at once. I’m a simple man. I don’t believe we have to know all the answers. Orthodox Catholicism to me makes the most sense and helps me the best to understand this world with it being already illogical as it is. As such, I simply take these things on faith. If one has no faith in a supreme being, then what does it matter anyways what you do, think or believe? That person is simply waiting to not exist despite what he/she claims otherwise.

All the best

 

[Lokadottir]

Actually, I do not. I agree with the basic premise, however, I disagree with his assertion that God does not know the person before they are created. Actually, quite the opposite is true. Scripture tells us (Before you were formed int eh womb, I knew you), and logical consistency tells us (an omniscient God must know all things, past present and future in order to be omniscient), that God knows all of us prior to our creation. He knew all of us prior to what we perceive as the moment of creation. And, sadly, he knew that there would be those who would reject him.

For starters, you are conflating knowledge of the outcome with the initial intention of the outcome. God does not create anyone “bound for Hell”. God creates everyone to spend eternity with Him. Unfortunately, free will allows us to act against this purpose, and chose the other option. What you’re saying seems to suggest that in order for God to be good, he should un-create everyone who rejects him. On this point, I will refer back to Nige90, with his assertion that, once created, God loves the being so much that he will not un-create them, no matter how vehemently they reject him. (Proof of this seen in Satan, the being who basically exists to fully reject God)

“Knowing” that someone will go to Hell does not change the fact that Hell is chosen freely; and, while is hurts God; he would never undo his act of creation simply because the creation rejected him. Similarly, to not create someone simply because they’ll reject you would also violate the principle of free will, because the choice is meaningless if you only give it to people who will chose correctly. (This could be compared to a poll. Poll results are meaningless if you select your pool only from those people who agree with your desired outcome.)

As an addendum, I would like to state that I am not a theologian; and some of what I have said here could be wrong; but I cannot agree with Nige’s assertion that God does not know someone prior to their creation.

However it does bring some kind of explanation.
Also important knowledge of the outcome of an action and the intent of the action are all but one in the same if the one performing the action already knows past present and future.

 

[KrazyKat]

Choice is meaningless if God already knows the choices we will make.

 

[Lokadottir]

Choice is meaningless if God already knows the choices we will make.

Wait I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying God is NOT all knowing or…?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

However it does bring some kind of explanation.

A faulty explanation is worse than no explanation at all, because it misleads the person seeking knowledge, rather than driving them forward to learn the actual truth.

Also important knowledge of the outcome of an action and the intent of the action are all but one in the same if the one performing the action already knows past present and future.

Again, you are applying human standards of knowledge to God, and attempting to discern understanding about something you cannot know (omniscience) from a position far below it (non-omniscience). Intent and outcome are separate entities, regardless of the amount of foreknowledge a given person has. This concept has been explored in a human capacity ad infinatum through the medium of the time travel story. No matter how much knowledge of what’s going to happen a person has, they are generally unable to modify the outcome, regardless of whether they wanted to or not. (Looper’s not a good example of this >_>, a better one would be “Back There”, an episode of the Twilight Zone.) This is an inadequate comparison, I realize; but in terms of God, any analogy is inadequate because we simply cannot fully fathom Him.

Choice is meaningless if God already knows the choices we will make.

Incorrect. Choice is still important, regardless of whether the outcome is known. For example, you can give a child a choice between a chocolate bar and lima beans. You already know that the child is going to chose the chocolate bar, but the choice is still theirs to make, and therefore, the consequences are of their own chosing.

Likewise, God knows the outcome, but that’s only because, to him, it;'s already occurred. his knowledge of the outcome in now way affects the fact that is was the choices we made in our life that resulted in that outcome, meaning that, regardless of his foreknowledge, the end result is still on our heads.