The All-Knowing Creates the Hell bound?

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Lokadottir said:
Wait I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying God is NOT all knowing or…?
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…am I to believe that at the time of conception God knows that a serial killer, rapist, pedophile, adulterer is about to be born ? That God knows He has just created evil but He is a loving God?

Never !
 
KrazyKat said:
…am I to believe that at the time of conception God knows that a serial killer, rapist, pedophile, adulterer is about to be born ? That God knows He has just created evil but He is a loving God?

Never !
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Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t it doctrine that God is omniscient?
 
This is a question for which there are no easy answers. As humans we can’t truly know the nature of God. We can only speculate about “how” and “when” God knows things, and there are many theories proposed by many scholars.

You asked why God would create people he knew were bound for hell. I would suggest, if God created only people he knew would be saved, that would negate our free will. If God knows our choice then it’s not really a choice, it’s inevitable.

God wants us to freely choose him, not because he compelled us but because we want to. And he gives us many, many chances to choose, right up to the point of our death.
 
Lokadottir said:
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t it doctrine that God is omniscient?
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I do not believe that God knows what choice we are going to make until we make it, free will. Otherwise we are puppets in a very sick play.
 
ProdglArchitect said:
Actually, I do not. I agree with the basic premise, however, I disagree with his assertion that God does not know the person before they are created. Actually, quite the opposite is true. Scripture tells us (Before you were formed int eh womb, I knew you), and logical consistency tells us (an omniscient God must know all things, past present and future in order to be omniscient), that God knows all of us prior to our creation. He knew all of us prior to what we perceive as the moment of creation. And, sadly, he knew that there would be those who would reject him.

For starters, you are conflating knowledge of the outcome with the initial intention of the outcome. God does not create anyone “bound for Hell”. God creates everyone to spend eternity with Him. Unfortunately, free will allows us to act against this purpose, and chose the other option. What you’re saying seems to suggest that in order for God to be good, he should un-create everyone who rejects him. On this point, I will refer back to Nige90, with his assertion that, once created, God loves the being so much that he will not un-create them, no matter how vehemently they reject him. (Proof of this seen in Satan, the being who basically exists to fully reject God)

“Knowing” that someone will go to Hell does not change the fact that Hell is chosen freely; and, while is hurts God; he would never undo his act of creation simply because the creation rejected him. Similarly, to not create someone simply because they’ll reject you would also violate the principle of free will, because the choice is meaningless if you only give it to people who will chose correctly. (This could be compared to a poll. Poll results are meaningless if you select your pool only from those people who agree with your desired outcome.)

As an addendum, I would like to state that I am not a theologian; and some of what I have said here could be wrong; but I cannot agree with Nige’s assertion that God does not know someone prior to their creation.
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Thank you for your correction. I can see now that God does/did know us before He created us. But I would argue that this would be because He sees past and future as only present, and so He can only know what He has created or will create. And so He can know us before our creation because He already knows our future, otherwise there would be surely nothing else to know?

I’m certainly no theologian myself, so would this amendment make sense?
 
I’m not sure I buy the idea that God’s thoughts = God’s creative actions.
  1. God’s actions seem to take place over time. If his actions= his thoughts, how can his thoughts happen in time if he is eternally present? Does God need “time to think about it?” I doubt this.
  2. We live in a finite universe with a discrete number of beings (if you accept that there are in fact more than one)…so God’s mind would thus be finite? In other words, if everything he thinks is created…then why are there not an infinity of things? I can easily imagine things that don’t exist, like airborne pink elephants for instance. Are our imaginations so much more rich than God’s?
Also, if God only begins to know a person at the moment that person is conceived, then he isn’t really omniscient. Also, that assertion doesn’t make any sense for several reason. For instance, if God’s knowledge of a person’s ultimate fate is known to God at conception…wouldn’t God also know everything else about that person’s life…including whether or not that person will have any children?
 
Nige90 said:
Thank you for your correction. I can see now that God does/did know us before He created us. But I would argue that this would be because He sees past and future as only present, and so He can only know what He has created or will create. And so He can know us before our creation because He already knows our future, otherwise there would be surely nothing else to know?

I’m certainly no theologian myself, so would this amendment make sense?
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Well, you lose me with that last line… I mean… God doesn’t have anything else to know… if he did he wouldn’t be omniscient. However, I agree with the rest of it. God is outside of Time, and everything that occurs is as the present to him.
 
KrazyKat said:
I do not believe that God knows what choice we are going to make until we make it, free will. Otherwise we are puppets in a very sick play.
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Christ knew Peter would deny him before Peter choice to deny him.
 
KrazyKat said:
…am I to believe that at the time of conception God knows that a serial killer, rapist, pedophile, adulterer is about to be born ? That God knows He has just created evil but He is a loving God?

Never !
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God does not create them as such, it is what they become through their actions.
 
marty1818 said:
God does not create them as such, it is what they become through their actions.
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That is my point, God does not know our choices until we make them, free will.

I do not believe in the predestination.
 
KrazyKat said:
That is my point, God does not know our choices until we make them, free will.

I do not believe in the predestination.
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Nor do I. (well I believe in my Wyrd but that is a separate thread go to Ask an Asatru 🙂 ) However a good point was made about Peter the Apostle and indeed with Judas Iscariot. Christ (God) knew there actions before they were performed.
 
Lokadottir said:
So this is my favorite theology/philosophy question:
  1. God is omniscient, knowing past, present, and future.
  2. God wants all humans to go to Heaven.
How can these two hold at once?
If God knows past, present, and future how can God create a human whose actions will lead to damnation? For these would be the result of free will but these actions would be known by God already.

This leads to three possibilities:
  1. God is not truly omniscient.
  2. God does not desire all his creations to reach heaven.
  3. All humans, even those deemed evil, are, in fact, saved.
How can these be reconciled?
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If you are interested, I would recommend looking into Aquinas’ writings. He responds to this (and many other) objections in trying to understand the nature of God.

Aquinas raised the point that if God has his creation’s best interest in mind, then in the act of creating us with free will, why would he also not either A) somehow mysteriously inhibit certain people’s free will to prevent them from making a choice that causes themselves injury, or B) avoid creating those who he foresees will reject him.

The reason is because God cannot (and must not) change His mind. ‘Mind changing’ is a result of imperfect creatures that cannot see all ends. God sees all ends, and therefore his will and his decrees have been set in stone from eternity to eternity. In the act of creating rational creatures with free will, if he were to spare those who reject him by not forming them, then it would be a situation where the God of righteousness is submitting to evil, which is something that is unconscionable and inconceivable.

Also - and I’m not sure if Aquinas raises this particular point - but in so far as the idea of us is concerned, we are outside of time and have existed from eternity to eternity, just as God has. We gain our being within the scope of time, but we have always been cherished by God in his divine plan. This means that those beings who reject Him - an act disgusting and vile - have eternally violated God’s will. There is a plan of Satan eternally conceived of in the mind of God, of him being St. Satan and being loved by his Creator for all eternity. That will never come to pass.

We must also consider that God is not lessened by some of his creation rejecting him. His glory is still unblemished and perfect, and the only diminished person is the person themselves, who without God, is eternally bankrupt of all glory.

I believe this is a very rational explanation, but of course, the harder part is stomaching it. Just as a child might intellectually accept that eating vegetables is healthy for her, she must still commit to eating them. This is something that comes with prayer and meditation, and not something that you’re going to acquire talking about it on an internet forum.
 
Does the fact that marketing research can often successfully predict the decisions a person will make, mean that the researchers are controlling those actions?
 
KrazyKat said:
That is my point, God does not know our choices until we make them, free will.

I do not believe in the predestination.
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That’s not predestination. Predestination implies that God chooses our actions for us, and that it is He who determines our final outcome. Rather, God knows our choices, but does not make them for us. He knows them because there is no such thing as time for him. Everything simply -is-.
 
Origen52 said:
Does the fact that marketing research can often successfully predict the decisions a person will make, mean that the researchers are controlling those actions?
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That’s not really a good analogy. MR make educated guesses about what is most likely to happen based on previous experience and the information gleaned from polls. That’s not the same as knowing for an absolute certainty. Then the seller gives the people what (MR thinks) they want so they will choose what seller wants them to choose. That’s not exactly a free will choice.
 
marty1818 said:
Christ knew Peter would deny him before Peter choice to deny him.
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I am not a seer but I know my friends. I know who will be there if I need help. I know the ones who will cross the street when they see I am struggling to unload my car. I know the ones who will deny knowing me when the persecution begins and the ones who will turn me in.
 
Im not catholic but i have read my bible. It is my understanding that every knee will bow to God.There is no freewill in this as far as i can see.When bad things happen to good people or when good things happen to bad people.Either way…Its all a plan to move us toward God’s will of every knee bowing to him… I believe the only choices we have is to go willingly or not. but we all will go.
 
deeds said:
Im not catholic but i have read my bible. It is my understanding that every knee will bow to God.There is no freewill in this as far as i can see.When bad things happen to good people or when good things happen to bad people.Either way…Its all a plan to move us toward God’s will of every knee bowing to him… I believe the only choices we have is to go willingly or not. but we all will go.
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Erm… #1, you should cite that passage. #2, that all knees will bow to God does not reflect a loss of free will, but rather the compulsion one will have when in the presence of the Lord to humble themselves before Him.
 
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