The All-Knowing Creates the Hell bound?

[deeds]

Erm… #1, you should cite that passage. #2, that all knees will bow to God does not reflect a loss of free will, but rather the compulsion one will have when in the presence of the Lord to humble themselves before Him.

With all due respect not to derail this persons conversation , I do not cite passages unless asked to. I have memory to know its in there if you want to reread you must find it yourself…

I appreciate your take on what all the knee bowing means,as for myself i feel the time for bowing is now, in the end we will be past this gesture into a much more profound submission.

 

[Origen52]

That’s not really a good analogy. MR make educated guesses about what is most likely to happen based on previous experience and the information gleaned from polls. That’s not the same as knowing for an absolute certainty. Then the seller gives the people what (MR thinks) they want so they will choose what seller wants them to choose. That’s not exactly a free will choice.

If the market researcher is able to control one to the point where “a free will choice” is taken away, then they would have “absolute certainty.”

 

[ProdglArchitect]

With all due respect not to derail this persons conversation , I do not cite passages unless asked to. I have memory to know its in there if you want to reread you must find it yourself…

… so, basically, your stance is : The proof is out there, but I’m not going to cite any of it to support my version, you have to find the passages that support my opinion on your own… uh-huh… have fun with that.

 

[clem456]

So this is my favorite theology/philosophy question:

1. God is omniscient, knowing past, present, and future.
2. God wants all humans to go to Heaven.

How can these two hold at once?
If God knows past, present, and future how can God create a human whose actions will lead to damnation? For these would be the result of free will but these actions would be known by God already.

This leads to three possibilities:

1. God is not truly omniscient.
2. God does not desire all his creations to reach heaven.
3. All humans, even those deemed evil, are, in fact, saved.

How can these be reconciled?

God IS love. He does not love sometimes when it is convenient for him, or when we are good people. He IS love.

Love creates. That’s what it does. It bears fruit. God creates out of love. (we participate in that when we love, with him)

Love is a relationship requiring free will. No free will, no love, no relationship. Love without free will is rape. God cannot force himself on us because he is love.

God wants the best for us, but we freely refuse him. That does not mean he stops loving us or forces us to be good.
Knowing that we will reject him does not stop him from loving us either.

He is omniscient, omnipotent, and is love. It’s all perfectly reconcilable in God.

 

[deeds]

… so, basically, your stance is : The proof is out there, but I’m not going to cite any of it to support my version, you have to find the passages that support my opinion on your own… uh-huh… have fun with that.

Yea, something like that, read the whole bible on your own. One passage proves nothing, nor am i trying to prove anything…Now get behind me satan…lol…but really , leave me alone,I have no time for child like confrontations…

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Yea, something like that, read the whole bible on your own. One passage proves nothing, nor am i trying to prove anything…Now get behind me satan…lol…but really , leave me alone,I have no time for child like confrontations…

And so now you chose to dismiss someone who presents a valid problem with your approach as a child…

I’ll just leave these here and wash my hands of it.

Fallacy #1: Using emotional language (calling me a child, intended to illicit an emotional response) in place of an argument

Fallacy #2: Attacking my personal character rather than presenting an argument

Fallacy #3: Admittedly, this one is a bit of a stretch, however, you are claiming that not only do I have to prove my own stance, but that now I must also research your own stance before I can properly engage in discussion with you.

Incidentally, those who call others children are most often children themselves. If you have a point, do not hide behind ambiguity; announce it, support it and discuss it. That’s the only good way to have a meaningful debate. You’ll learn a great deal more by having your views confronted and challenged than you will by simply stating them and ignoring criticism.

 

[tonyrey]

So this is my favorite theology/philosophy question:

1. God is omniscient, knowing past, present, and future.
2. God wants all humans to go to Heaven.

How can these two hold at once?
If God knows past, present, and future how can God create a human whose actions will lead to damnation? For these would be the result of free will but these actions would be known by God already.

This leads to three possibilities:

1. God is not truly omniscient.
2. God does not desire all his creations to reach heaven.
3. All humans, even those deemed evil, are, in fact, saved.

How can these be reconciled?

Knowledge does not entail causality.

God wants all of us to go to Heaven but He also wants us to be free to choose our own destiny. Unless we are free we are incapable of love.

 

[JamesATyler]

Maybe it’s like this.

When God creates a soul, he isn’t actually doing that in a moment of time, like a human creates something, but is creating an entire life which he sees from beginning to end. All at once. Let’s say this soul tends toward evil (thru his own free will). God sew’s good seed in the man’s heart at the best time in the man’s lifetime. The seed bears no fruit in the man’s heart. He dies and goes to hell. Now for God, this all happened immediately. It all happens at the moment of the man’s conception (in the sense that his existence is conceived by God), because when God conceives a man, he conceives his entire existence in what a human would call a moment.

Now for the man to have exerted his own free will, he needed to be alive. He needed to exist. He needed to have a brain. He needed to be able to think. To make choices. So God has to really make the man a real person. We can deduce that God does not unmake history if the man fails.

A man’s life is like a picture that suddenly comes into view. The good picture God places into his photo album for keeping but the bad picture is thrown into the fire.

 

[deeds]

And so now you chose to dismiss someone who presents a valid problem with your approach as a child…

I’ll just leave these here and wash my hands of it.

Fallacy #1: Using emotional language (calling me a child, intended to illicit an emotional response) in place of an argument

Fallacy #2: Attacking my personal character rather than presenting an argument

Fallacy #3: Admittedly, this one is a bit of a stretch, however, you are claiming that not only do I have to prove my own stance, but that now I must also research your own stance before I can properly engage in discussion with you.

Incidentally, those who call others children are most often children themselves. If you have a point, do not hide behind ambiguity; announce it, support it and discuss it. That’s the only good way to have a meaningful debate. You’ll learn a great deal more by having your views confronted and challenged than you will by simply stating them and ignoring criticism.

Listen…You serve God the way you want…If focussing on numbers and specific locations in the bible is your thing , so be it…But your rights end at the tip of my nose when it comes to you dictating how I approach the word of my God…You have overstepped your boundary man. You want to debate the bible with me then bring it on dude, but you dont tell me what i should or should not do when it comes to me and Jesus…or anything else in this world for all that matters…Your way may be right for you, so, police yourself and stop trying to dictate the flow of God’s word…

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Listen…You serve God the way you want…If focussing on numbers and specific locations in the bible is your thing , so be it…But your rights end at the tip of my nose when it comes to you dictating how I approach the word of my God…You have overstepped your boundary man. You want to debate the bible with me then bring it on dude, but you dont tell me what i should or should not do when it comes to me and Jesus…or anything else in this world for all that matters…Your way may be right for you, so, police yourself and stop trying to dictate the flow of God’s word…

I made no mention of your personal relationship with God, nor did I reference that you were doing anything wrong in your adherence to His will.

I was simply pointing out flaws in your method of discourse which, if corrected, will lead to you learning a whole lot more from your discussions with me and others… have you actually read any of my posts directed towards you? They have absolutist nothing to do with what you say in your post. My statements only deal with how you are presenting your arguments… period… I don’t know where you’re pulling this other stuff from.

 

[deeds]

I made no mention of your personal relationship with God, nor did I reference that you were doing anything wrong in your adherence to His will.

I was simply pointing out flaws in your method of discourse which, if corrected, will lead to you learning a whole lot more from your discussions with me and others… have you actually read any of my posts directed towards you? They have absolutist nothing to do with what you say in your post. My statements only deal with how you are presenting your arguments… period… I don’t know where you’re pulling this other stuff from.

Well. I was thinking on this thread lastnight… I do apologize for the derailment…But i , in no way shape or form represent God and his word…I am way to big of a chicken **** to even pretend I know anything when it comes to God…But i do know this much… The bible is the greatest book ever written…I will never comprehend its infallible truths in this lifetime as hard as i try…But i do not deal with numbers…never have, and i will never even try because i hate numbers…numbers are my enemy…I do not read my bible by numbers…no more than i pause to tell my grandchildren that on page 35 the first paragraph of the three bears book, papa bear said " someone has been laying in my bed"…To me, that takes the glory from the story and defeats the whole purpose of telling the whole story. The bible is more than just it’s parts…its a whole living entity…And if Im talking to anyone about it, I assume you have read that part too…and if not, like my grandbabies…I have no guilt whatsoever telling them its in there somewhere…read it and find it for yourself…I am sorry if i come off as mean spirited…I havent attended church since childhood and i am not conditioned to study the bible in the way religious folks do…I will change for the Lord in anyway he wants me too…But after 35 years of reading his word…I doubt he requires me to start noting what page and paragraph i read it in…He does require me to know the truth of it all…I try with all my heart…But i can never say i know for fact the meaning of anything… The fact he says it and its in there and where its located is irrelevent to me…The fact that God indeed exist and we have his word in one great book means everything to me…
Anyway, i am sorry if i came off as rude…Im not …If ever i feel im adressing someone who knows less of his word than myself, i could justify telling you where its located, tho, i prefer you read it yourself… But again…I assume everyone on this site knows more about the bible than myself because you have been to church…Peace out…

 

[seagal]

But again…I assume everyone on this site knows more about the bible than myself because you have been to church…Peace out…

Not all of us (I would even say very few of us) can quote chapter and verse for every bible reference they use, I know I can’t. I’ll give you a little tip. When I want to know where in the bible it says something, I just google the phrase I’m looking for and let the computer do the work for me. I had to do that with the reference you made “every knee will bow to God” and google found it for me in Isaiah 45:23 .

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Well. I was thinking on this thread lastnight… I do apologize for the derailment…But i , in no way shape or form represent God and his word…I am way to big of a chicken **** to even pretend I know anything when it comes to God…But i do know this much… The bible is the greatest book ever written…I will never comprehend its infallible truths in this lifetime as hard as i try…But i do not deal with numbers…never have, and i will never even try because i hate numbers…numbers are my enemy…I do not read my bible by numbers…no more than i pause to tell my grandchildren that on page 35 the first paragraph of the three bears book, papa bear said " someone has been laying in my bed"…To me, that takes the glory from the story and defeats the whole purpose of telling the whole story. The bible is more than just it’s parts…its a whole living entity…And if Im talking to anyone about it, I assume you have read that part too…and if not, like my grandbabies…I have no guilt whatsoever telling them its in there somewhere…read it and find it for yourself…I am sorry if i come off as mean spirited…I havent attended church since childhood and i am not conditioned to study the bible in the way religious folks do…I will change for the Lord in anyway he wants me too…But after 35 years of reading his word…I doubt he requires me to start noting what page and paragraph i read it in…He does require me to know the truth of it all…I try with all my heart…But i can never say i know for fact the meaning of anything… The fact he says it and its in there and where its located is irrelevent to me…The fact that God indeed exist and we have his word in one great book means everything to me…
Anyway, i am sorry if i came off as rude…Im not …If ever i feel im adressing someone who knows less of his word than myself, i could justify telling you where its located, tho, i prefer you read it yourself… But again…I assume everyone on this site knows more about the bible than myself because you have been to church…Peace out…

Seriously man, i’m not attacking you personally, I’m only offering suggestions about how to get the most out of these forums…

I agree with you, the Bible is the greatest book ever recorded to the page, I am currently in the process of reading the Ignatius Study Bible, and I am learning so much that it boggles the mind. The only reason I suggest that you cite your sources it so that, 1: people who aren’t overly familiar with the Bible (i.e. most people, myself included, seeing as this is my first official read-through of it) can find the exact text that you mentioned; and 2: It also presents the poster (in this case, you) with the opportunity to reread the passage before posting to ensure that they are really representing it properly.

I am also not trying to be rude or judgmental; I am simply offering a friendly suggestion.

 

[mikekle]

There is a fouth possibility.

God desires all people to reach heaven but gives people free will.

Some people by choice chose to refuse to enter heaven.

Hell is an individual’s choice. To some they chose not to be in God’s presence.

If there is a ‘punishment’ for not choosing God, then that is not free will, its that simple.

If God had intended us to have true free will, ‘hell’ would just be another place where the dead end up, for those that chose to live without God in their lives, WITHOUT any kind of torture or suffering, it would not be good or bad, just another place…but the fact that hell is viewed as a place of torture and punishment for making the WRONG choice in life IMO is contradictory to true free will.

 

[Peter_Plato]

There is a fouth possibility.

God desires all people to reach heaven but gives people free will.

Some people by choice chose to refuse to enter heaven.

Given that God is eternal - which means for him there is no past, present or future - he simply knows all in the eternal NOW. That atemporal state is not logically inconsistent with God’s knowledge of our choices being dependent upon what we choose even if we ARE constrained within time.

If all the past, present and future is simply known by God now, eternally, that would mean all our free choices are known by him. These may appear to be past choices or current choices to us, but they are simply known from eternity by God. Since God is not constrained to time his knowledge is not past, present or future knowledge, but is simply knowledge.

Even though we “have a past” from our own perspective, that doesn’t mean God has a past.

As CS Lewis pointed out, the fact that God simply “sees” what we do, “sees” what we have done and “sees” what we will do does not entail that his seeing all of those means he determines our choices. Our past is not “in the past” to him, it is simply known to him

Free will, if anything, means that what we choose determines what God sees. That is not incompatible with God’s omniscience since what God sees occurs “now” as we do it. The past has no reality and neither does the future. Reality is now.

There is no past to which God could “rewind” reality and undo what has transpired. What we do has eternal significance. I think Lewis called that “the weight of glory.” The dignity of free will is that our thoughts, words and actions have eternal significance and consequence.

Hell is an individual’s choice. To some they chose not to be in God’s presence.

I suspect that God’s presence will be what hell is for those who choose evil. Hell is not a punishment superimposed on evil people, but rather the burning fire of God’s purifying love being perceived as painful and resisted by those who are not “accustomed” to it. Sort of the way a bright light “blinds” those used to darkness. Or how classical music might be perceived as awful or deadly boring by those who have developed a taste for more cacophonous or inharmonious noises.

 

[seagal]

If there is a ‘punishment’ for not choosing God, then that is not free will, its that simple.

If God had intended us to have true free will, ‘hell’ would just be another place where the dead end up, for those that chose to live without God in their lives, WITHOUT any kind of torture or suffering, it would not be good or bad, just another place…but the fact that hell is viewed as a place of torture and punishment for making the WRONG choice in life IMO is contradictory to true free will.

You don’t fully comprehend (as none of us truly can) what it truly means to live outside God’s presence. Before hell comes the judgement, where we all stand before the throne of God. Just imagine for a moment what it must be like to be in the presence of a being who absolutely loves you, who is the act of loving itself. Imagine what it would be like to feel that love totally encompass you in a way you have never experienced before. Now imagine being escorted away from that awesome presence, never to experience it again for all eternity, knowing full well that you alone made that choice. That is hell.

 

[vz71]

Yes however if God creates someone he will know their future actions the same way He knows the present, for if He exists in all time past, present, and future all are equal. So yes it’s their decision but God would make a creation that would be in hell . This is counter to God’d desire for all men to reach heaven. Although God grants free will, He has His own will as well. How could God create a man bound for hell? This would be action against His own will.

Is it possible that the exercise of our free will is somehow more important for us to have then the possibility we use it the wrong way?

 

[Peter_Plato]

Is it possible that the exercise of our free will is somehow more important for us to have then the possibility we use it the wrong way?

Free will would be more important - than the possibility of misusing it - if our very existence as conscious and aware moral agents DEPENDS upon our having free will.

How could we have distinct identities without some distinguishing feature such as the ability to make our own choices? A distinct identity would presume at least the potential to initiate activity (thoughts, feelings, actions) which are distinctively our own and make us unique, no?

If we are simply the result of a causal chain of events, what feature would give us an identity as a “self” distinct from that causal chain? The fact that we can transcend the causal order, look forward and backward in time and choose alternatives based on future possibilities and originate thoughts, words and deeds, is precisely what makes us distinct from the causal order and gives us a unique identity as a “self.”

 

[Aloysium]

:twocents:

We have free will, choosing, acting, and thereby participating in creation, the sacred unfolding of becoming who we are within the context of His Divine Plan.

It is free will that determines that we exist in the moment.
Here and now, we emerge as part of universal coming into being.
In the present, the past comes as a recollection of what we have encountered and how we have responded; all behind us, it is immutable, dead.
Its final significance, meaning, reality, remains to be determined in the future, which we can imagine as undefined possibilities and potential choices.

We are real in each moment, as we have been since conception.
Right here, right now, God brings us into existence as part of the glorious splendor of infinite creation.
As God of the living, all our moments, each choice that determines our course are alive within the view of His Now.
Eternally present, He has all time to hear the penitent’s last words.

All-loving God creates us having free will and knowing our choices will include evil.
Do people have a hard time accepting this because they do not want to accept personal responsibility?
Adam blamed Eve, who blamed the snake; I suppose the next step is to blame the Creator.
All we have to say is that we are sorry. He has paid the price for us.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**Loka

Although God grants free will, He has His own will as well. How could God create a man bound for hell? This would be action against His own will.**

Might as well ask why God creates people bound for heaven. Does it seem reasonable that God would reward evil with good? Then with what should he reward good?

You can’t get around free will. If people do not want God, God obliges them. But he will not force everyone into heaven. Their going to hell is against his will, but he created them free, and wills not to take away their freedom.