The All-Knowing Creates the Hell bound?

[StopDropandBowl]

God creates no-one who is destined to hell. He creates all so that they can enjoy the eternal joy of heaven. We choose to go to hell God down to hell.

Okay but the fact remains that by the common Christian understanding, God chose to make those who He was fully aware would go to hell. He made them knowing that they wouldn’t enjoy heaven, and that they would, in fact, suffer the torment of hell, and knowing that they would rather have never been created in the first place.

He made something He knew would choose hell and damnation. You can say that He made them to go to heaven all you want, but the fact is that they won’t be going to heaven and He knows it. He knew it before He created them. It was they who doomed themselves, okay I’ll take that for the sake of the argument (though it has yet to be logically shown), but **He ** is the ultimate cause of that doom. He created the damned.

I’m not usually into putting human standards on God’s behavior, or for judging God. But to be honest, I’d rather He just not make me in the first place if He already knows I’m going to fail. Sure it’s great for Him and the people who use my example to stay out of hell, but it sure bites for me. That’s why I have trouble accepting that our definitions of hell are accurate.

 

[catholictiger]

Okay but the fact remains that by the common Christian understanding, God chose to make those who He was fully aware would go to hell. He made them knowing that they wouldn’t enjoy heaven, and that they would, in fact, suffer the torment of hell, and knowing that they would rather have never been created in the first place.

He made something He knew would choose hell and damnation. You can say that He made them to go to heaven all you want, but the fact is that He they won’t be going to heaven and He knows it. He knew it before He created them. It was they who doomed themselves, okay I’ll take that for the sake of the argument (though it has yet to be logically shown), but **He ** is the ultimate cause of that doom. He created the damned.

I’m not usually into putting human standards on God’s behavior, or for judging God. But to be honest, I’d rather He just not make me in the first place if He already knows I’m going to fail. Sure it’s great for Him and the people who use my example to stay out of hell, but it sure bites for me. That’s why I have trouble accepting that our definitions of hell are accurate.

God created the world knowing full well man would fall. But God didn’t create the world that is would necessarily cause the fall. God created the world with freedom and he knew that this freedom could (and would) lead to mans fall. God cannot create evil, God though creates freedom and in order to hold up freedom he must allow evil to happen or people go to hell.

another way to think about this is to think of a drawing with dark and light areas. Light areas are goods, this may be Mother Theresa JPII, Joyful people in the Church, people who have financial success but still follow god etc. Then you have the dark areas, Natural Distares, horrible horrible sins, sex abuse, mass Murder, Genocide, etc. IF you look at 2% of the drawing you would say this is horrible why would any artist create this. But when you step back and look at the whole thing you realize that this is in-fact the most beautiful drawing you have ever seen. God has created all Good and no evil, but he does allow evil so that good can come about. If there is no evil in the world no-one destined to hell God’s creation isn’t as beutiful and there is no freedom. God brings out even more good through evil, so God uses evil to bring about greater good. So the greatest good can only come baout through evil.

To put it in a couple of words

God allows people to go to hell because:

Freedom
The greater good.

 

[seagal]

God creates no-one who is destined to hell. He creates all so that they can enjoy the eternal joy of heaven. We choose to go to hell God down to hell.

This was already answered earlier in the thread

 

[StopDropandBowl]

Which is exactly my point. It works out great for God (the beauty of His creation) and it works out great for the saved. But it’s all placed on the back of the damned. Who were born damned. Who will not receive the salvation of Christ and thus will remain damned. They chose to be damned. Great. Why create them in the first place if that’s what they will choose?

The problem here is you’re not looking at the big picture. It doesn’t negate free-will to only create those who will exercise their free-will to reach eventual salvation. They will still have the freedom, and they will still choose to do evil things, but you only create the people who will eventually choose salvation. By creating those who choose hell, you haven’t made our will any more free. Those who choose salvation still have the choice of damnation, right? They just didn’t choose it. So why create anyone else at all?

To serve as an example for those who will choose salvation? Great for the saved, pretty raw deal for the damned. To show God’s greater glory? Great for God, raw deal for the damned.

Imagine I decided to have a child. Now before I have this child, God comes down and tells me that this child will eventually hate me. So immediately upon birthing that child, I toss him into a world of darkness and sin and hatred. I sent him signs of my love sometimes, but the majority of his lifetime was spent in sin and despair. Then at the end of his life, I tell him to love me for what I’ve done. When he rejects me, I toss him into a fire. When he begs me to explain why I ever had him in the first place, I say:

To serve as an example to your brothers.

Does that sound very nice to you? Now, I’m realistic. If I let myself get hung up on something like that, I’ll be the one who gets left out in the lurch. So I usually ignore that facet of our belief, knowing full well that if I don’t, I’ll be the one being tossed into the fire. And every day is a gnawing fear that maybe ignoring it isn’t good enough. Maybe I’m just one of those who were damned from the start. And maybe it will be me who is left alone with the consolation of: It was all for the greater good (of which I get no part).

 

[seagal]

Prodigal son takes his inheritence and blows it on “good” times. Eventually, he finds himself starving and cold, living in a pig sty. He goes home, apologizes for his total stupidity. All celebrate and feast on the fatted calf. How cruel to blackmail him like that.

The son was cruel, asking for his inheritance before his father even died, effectively saying he wished his father dead. He went away, never contacting his father to say where he is or that he’s still alive. He lost everything he had so that he’s reduced to feeding pigs (remember pigs were considered unclean by the Jews). He decided to go back to his father, not because he’s sorry but because he knew he’ll be looked after. He rehearsed the best line to get his father to take him in as a servant, with no word of apology.

By contrast, his father willingly gave his son his share of his property; let him go on his way, probably knowing exactly where the money was going. He patiently and anxiously waited every day for his son’s return and welcomed him back with open arms, not even waiting for an apology (which wouldn’t have come anyway). He bathed him, clothed him and fed him the finest meal.

Where is the blackmail?

 

[Bahman]

Which is exactly my point. It works out great for God (the beauty of His creation) and it works out great for the saved. But it’s all placed on the back of the damned. Who were born damned. Who will not receive the salvation of Christ and thus will remain damned. They chose to be damned. Great. Why create them in the first place if that’s what they will choose?

The problem here is you’re not looking at the big picture. It doesn’t negate free-will to only create those who will exercise their free-will to reach eventual salvation. They will still have the freedom, and they will still choose to do evil things, but you only create the people who will eventually choose salvation. By creating those who choose hell, you haven’t made our will any more free. Those who choose salvation still have the choice of damnation, right? They just didn’t choose it. So why create anyone else at all?

To serve as an example for those who will choose salvation? Great for the saved, pretty raw deal for the damned. To show God’s greater glory? Great for God, raw deal for the damned.

Imagine I decided to have a child. Now before I have this child, God comes down and tells me that this child will eventually hate me. So immediately upon birthing that child, I toss him into a world of darkness and sin and hatred. I sent him signs of my love sometimes, but the majority of his lifetime was spent in sin and despair. Then at the end of his life, I tell him to love me for what I’ve done. When he rejects me, I toss him into a fire. When he begs me to explain why I ever had him in the first place, I say:

To serve as an example to your brothers.

Does that sound very nice to you? Now, I’m realistic. If I let myself get hung up on something like that, I’ll be the one who gets left out in the lurch. So I usually ignore that facet of our belief, knowing full well that if I don’t, I’ll be the one being tossed into the fire. And every day is a gnawing fear that maybe ignoring it isn’t good enough. Maybe I’m just one of those who were damned from the start. And maybe it will be me who is left alone with the consolation of: It was all for the greater good (of which I get no part).

Future cannot be known since it does not exist, so God omniscience in strong form (knowing future) is an illusion. There is another argument based on suffering which state that why we should suffer if God already knows our final fate!?

 

[catholictiger]

Future cannot be known since it does not exist, so God omniscience in strong form (knowing future) is an illusion. There is another argument based on suffering which state that why we should suffer if God already knows our final fate!?

But God is present to all times. Future doesn’t exist for us yes this is true but The Past Present and Future exist at the same time for God. I think it would be better to say for God there is no past present or future because he is omnipresent. So God knows what we are going to to do what we have done and what we are doing.

If God can’t know the future God can not have a divine plan, the idea of a perfect will is destoyed. If God can’t know future with certainty he can’t have a perfect unchanging will because something he plans or wills is changed by people do. God, by necessity, must know the future to be all knowing all present, have a perfect will, know the end of the world, etc.

Divine providence itself is destroyed if God can’t know the future.

through prophecy out to. Old-testament types of Christ can be thrown out to.

I could go on and on

the simple fact remains God knows the future.

 

[Aloysium]

Future cannot be known since it does not exist, so God omniscience in strong form (knowing future) is an illusion. There is another argument based on suffering which state that why we should suffer if God already knows our final fate!?

There is a past, present and future. However, the universe is not necessarily synchronous, and the totality of time, universal change I don’t believe is centred on your existence in this moment.
But that is beside the point.
God created the universe and each moment in it.
He is here, as He was then and will be.
He is in and beyond everything as the Source of all being…
Eternally now, unchanging, the same Being in all time, One.

 

[StopDropandBowl]

Future cannot be known since it does not exist, so God omniscience in strong form (knowing future) is an illusion. There is another argument based on suffering which state that why we should suffer if God already knows our final fate!?

Okay, let’s work within that assumption. The future does not exit. However, even humans have the ability to predict what will happen as long as they are given information about the present. Take this sequence of numbers for example:

2-4-6-8-10-12-?

Assuming that the sequence follows the rules, what comes next?

Now let us say that God has perfect information concerning both past and present. There is not one thing of past and present that God does not know. He would then be capable of predicting the future with perfect accuracy. The point still stands: God is fully aware that some will choose damnation, and He creates them anyway. If we take our views of hell at face-value, then He has created something **to **suffer forever. For whatever reason He does this, the damned is still the ultimate loser here.

And the best part is that the damned didn’t have a choice in the only thing that ever mattered: whether or not they would be created. As soon as they were created they were doomed, their destiny was set in something more solid and inevitable than stone. And if they beg for a reason why they were created only to suffer, they will be admonished that they chose their fate, which is irrelevant to their question: why create something so broken in the first place? The only answer they will be given, if they are given one at all, is “for the benefit of others.” So it is them who have been sacrificed. It is by their blood that the rest are given life.

Something doesn’t fit here, and it has to be our view of hell.

 

[Peter_Plato]

But then…why would God punish someone who exercises the free will He has lovingly given them, and decides not to have the kind of relationship He offers?

That doesn’t sound so much like free will. It’s sounds more like…blackmail?
(no offense intended)

.

I think this is based on a misunderstanding of Christianity. Sin is the abdication of free will and, hence, the renouncing of what God created each of us to be.

The “fact” of free will makes it possible renounce it. However, sin is not essentially in the exercise of free will, but rather turning one’s back on free will which is only possible to someone with free will. In a very real sense, hell is renouncing our very “self,” which is the gift that God has given to each of us. Hell is the complete alienation from one’s true “self” which is the self that God creates.

It is not blackmail because the gift God makes available is our true “self,” our birthright, and our freedom, which exists eternally, but which, like Esau, we spurn for the sake of some false conception that we prefer over the eternal “gift” that God makes available.

It is not blackmail, because, properly speaking, it is NOT that God dangles some external good like a carrot in front of us with the proviso that we must choose it or suffer hell. It is our very self that God holds out to us to choose or reject.

It is THAT personhood, THAT quality of being, that we must attain by actively “becoming” what God has created. Our “destiny” is becoming our true self in God, the fullness of our being in Being. He has provided everything we require to “get there” through grace. The rest is up to us. We can abdicate our destiny or fulfill it by cooperation with grace.

If we don’t become our true “selves” by our own neglect or malice, God “owes” us nothing more, he made “everything” possible and we snubbed our noses at it. By our own choice, not attaining our real self will end us up in a broken state of existence, which is hell.

The only way hell, as a possibility, could have been avoided by God, is for him not to have made the possibility of our self even possible. His only options were 1) no possibility of self or 2) self with the possibility that the self would not be achieved. That achievement can only be in the hands of the human individual God creates.

God cannot force us to become a real self because that is a choice we must make FOR ourselves. He can create the possibility, but we must accept and fulfill it.

This goes back to the question of why God does not foresee and not create those who will end up in hell. Creating a “self” or person is not the same as creating a tree or a star. Being a person or “self” is something that requires the full cooperation of the self or person. This is why the creation of a human person is a process that takes place through time. God requires me to create me. He cannot do that without me.

 

[seagal]

But then…why would God punish someone who exercises the free will He has lovingly given them, and decides not to have the kind of relationship He offers?

That doesn’t sound so much like free will. It’s sounds more like…blackmail?
(no offense intended)

.

I don’t know if you’re a parent, but say you are. You tell your child what you expect of him/her and what the consequences will be if they disobey you. They freely choose to disobey your rules. Do they not have to suffer the consequences?

 

[Bahman]

But God is present to all times. Future doesn’t exist for us yes this is true but The Past Present and Future exist at the same time for God.

This is logically impossible for a being in timeless state since the presence of past, now and future defines an arrow of time for sequence of events in the mind state which is not allowed in state of timeless.

I think it would be better to say for God there is no past present or future because he is omnipresent. So God knows what we are going to to do what we have done and what we are doing.

This knowledge means that creation evolves deterministically from God point of view so creation evolves deterministically in its nature so the concept of free will is under serious threat.

If God can’t know the future God can not have a divine plan, the idea of a perfect will is destoyed.

Perfect plan is the perfect creation which is already performed like a grand miracle. It is working perfectly with the forces of nature and our minds. Where the creation goes is largely up to us and we are given all the gifts which is needed. So divine plan is already performed.

If God can’t know future with certainty he can’t have a perfect unchanging will because something he plans or wills is changed by people do. God, by necessity, must know the future to be all knowing all present, have a perfect will, know the end of the world, etc.

God cannot know future since we have decisions to make. Moreover accepting the God omniscience, God action would change the state of creation and God omniscience so any action from God has a conflict with God omniscience.

Divine providence itself is destroyed if God can’t know the future.

There is no need for this for a creation which is perfect.

 

[Bahman]

Okay, let’s work within that assumption. The future does not exit.However, even humans have the ability to predict what will happen as long as they are given information about the present.

We could predict thing which evolve deterministically knowing the current state of being.

Take this sequence of numbers for example:

2-4-6-8-10-12-?

Assuming that the sequence follows the rules, what comes next?

15 is the answer . The short knowledge of a sequence does not tell you what that sequence is.

Now let us say that God has perfect information concerning both past and present. There is not one thing of past and present that God does not know. He would then be capable of predicting the future with perfect accuracy.

This is not true. Since God does not know our decisions. If God knows our decision, everything evolve deterministically from God point of view as you concluded and hence are deterministic in its nature. This however leads to a very bad conclusion, namely things were decided at initial point of creation and we have no responsibility for our action.

The point still stands: God is fully aware that some will choose damnation, and He creates them anyway. If we take our views of hell at face-value, then He has created something **to **suffer forever. For whatever reason He does this, the damned is still the ultimate loser here.

No my friend, for two strong reasons:

First, If your picture is true as it was discussed, things evolves deterministically so we are not responsible for our action which means that we don’t deserve hell
Second, there is no Hell.

And the best part is that the damned didn’t have a choice in the only thing that ever mattered: whether or not they would be created. As soon as they were created they were doomed, their destiny was set in something more solid and inevitable than stone. And if they beg for a reason why they were created only to suffer, they will be admonished that they chose their fate, which is irrelevant to their question: why create something so broken in the first place? The only answer they will be given, if they are given one at all, is “for the benefit of others.” So it is them who have been sacrificed. It is by their blood that the rest are given life.

I understand your point, but you have to prove me two things exist, namely future and hell.

 

[Bahman]

There is a past, present and future. However, the universe is not necessarily synchronous, and the totality of time, universal change I don’t believe is centred on your existence in this moment.

There is only now that exist, past is dead and we have a memory of it, and future is to come. Universe is synchronous. The only reality that could not be denied is that we only experience things and beings at the moment which is now.

God created the universe and each moment in it.

This is nonsense since it means that we are just observers.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

God wouldn’t have to create me to know that I would come to that conclusion.

Any way you look at it, hell is a sticky issue. Either we misunderstand it or we misunderstand God.

Actually this is incorrect since you would not have been a thought in God’s mind from all eternity had your non-existence been better than your existence. I know it’s a mystery for you to comprehend, like it is for all of us, but your existence (whether you make it to heaven or hell) is better than your non-existence; hence why you exist.

 

[mikekle]

I don’t know if you’re a parent, but say you are. You tell your child what you expect of him/her and what the consequences will be if they disobey you. They freely choose to disobey your rules. Do they not have to suffer the consequences?

I like you analogy, it is clear kids who knowingly disobey get punished by their loving parents…but only for a limited amount of time, definitely not for eternity.

I dont know ANY loving parent who could sentence their children to eternal torture/punishment for ANYTHING they have done, I dont care how bad their actions were, NO loving parent could do that.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

I like you analogy, it is clear kids who knowingly disobey get punished by their loving parents…but only for a limited amount of time, definitely not for eternity.

I dont know ANY loving parent who could sentence their children to eternal torture/punishment for ANYTHING they have done, I dont care how bad their actions were, NO loving parent could do that.

No loving parent can force their children to love them back. Hell is a consequence of sin, a product of refusing True Love; God. This is a logical consequence because if you refuse Love itself, then you opt for an existence which is cut off/separated from Love. Furthermore the existence of hell is not a sign that there is a lack of love on God’s part, but rather that there is a complete lack of love for God on the part of His creation.

Let’s take the analogy of the loving parents. These loving parents have an 18 year son who decides to use drugs one day. The son knows the parents rules on drugs and that they’re not permitted, and that the use of these substances will result in thee son being kicked out of the house. The continued use of drugs will result in the son being taken out of the family will. This means no inheritance.

First day the son uses drugs, he is caught by his parents. The parents kick him out of the house until he apologizes to them and makes an amends to never use drugs again. The son says ok and is allowed back in the house. After a little while the son decides to start using drugs again. The parents once again kick their son out of the house and tell the son in order to be allowed back in, he must apologize, make an amends to change his life, and start seeking help via a 7 step support group which the parents will pay for; all he needs to do is participate with the intention of improving his life. Yet this time the son refuses. Claims the parents do not love him because they will not let him use drugs which he claims make him feel good. The parents profess and insist that their position on drugs is based on love for him because they want to see him healthy and successful.

The son continues to disagree with the parents and continues to use drugs. The parents plead with him to come back. They offer all means of assistance to their son but he continues to refuse their help. The son gets deeper and deeper into drug use. His life deteriorates and he is found doing unspeakable things. Yet despite all of this the parents continue to offer their help until it becomes completely apparent that their son wants nothing to do with them when he tells them he never wants to see them again. The son disowns his parents, leaving the parents no choice but to remove him from their family will.

The son later dies in an alley way behind a dumpster with a needle stuck in his arm. The death of the son makes the news and people from all over the world send letters to the parents which say;

*"Dear Deadbeat Parents, *

I can’t believe you would allow your son to do this to himself. No truly loving parents would let their son die in an alley way behind a dumpster. You are truly horrible parents! Had you been truly loving loving parents your son would still be alive and healthy. Shame on you!"

 

[mikekle]

No loving parent can force their children to love them back. Hell is a consequence of sin, a product of refusing True Love; God. This is a logical consequence because if you refuse Love itself, then you opt for an existence which is cut off/separated from Love. Furthermore the existence of hell is not a sign that there is a lack of love on God’s part, but rather that there is a complete lack of love for God on the part of His creation.

Let’s take the analogy of the loving parents. These loving parents have an 18 year son who decides to use drugs one day. The son knows the parents rules on drugs and that they’re not permitted, and that the use of these substances will result in thee son being kicked out of the house. The continued use of drugs will result in the son being taken out of the family will. This means no inheritance.

First day the son uses drugs, he is caught by his parents. The parents kick him out of the house until he apologizes to them and makes an amends to never use drugs again. The son says ok and is allowed back in the house. After a little while the son decides to start using drugs again. The parents once again kick their son out of the house and tell the son in order to be allowed back in, he must apologize, make an amends to change his life, and start seeking help via a 7 step support group which the parents will pay for; all he needs to do is participate with the intention of improving his life. Yet this time the son refuses. Claims the parents do not love him because they will not let him use drugs which he claims make him feel good. The parents profess and insist that their position on drugs is based on love for him because they want to see him healthy and successful.

The son continues to disagree with the parents and continues to use drugs. The parents plead with him to come back. They offer all means of assistance to their son but he continues to refuse their help. The son gets deeper and deeper into drug use. His life deteriorates and he is found doing unspeakable things. Yet despite all of this the parents continue to offer their help until it becomes completely apparent that their son wants nothing to do with them when he tells them he never wants to see them again. The son disowns his parents, leaving the parents no choice but to remove him from their family will.

The son later dies in an alley way behind a dumpster with a needle stuck in his arm. The death of the son makes the news and people from all over the world send letters to the parents which say;

*"Dear Deadbeat Parents, *

I can’t believe you would allow your son to do this to himself. No truly loving parents would let their son die in an alley way behind a dumpster. You are truly horrible parents! Had you been truly loving loving parents your son would still be alive and healthy. Shame on you!"

Good analogy there, but the more I thought about this thru out the day, below is kind of what I came up with, it is quite simple and IMO, is proof against our free will, I realize this discussion was about God allowing people to send themselves to Hell, but free will plays a big part of that, and being that God is all-knowing, I think the below best describes what Im trying to say…

1. God’s knowledge cannot be wrong.
2. God knows that I will do A.
3. If I have free will, then (I can do A) and (I can do ~A).
4. If I can do ~A, then it is possibly true that I will do ~A.
5. If it is possibly true that I will do ~A, then God’s ‘knowledge’ that I will do A is possibly false.
6. If God’s knowledge that I will do A is possibly false, then God’s knowledge can be wrong.
7. Therefore, God’s knowledge that I will do A is not possibly false.
8. Therefore, it is not possibly true that I will do ~A.
9. Therefore, I cannot do ~A.
10. Therefore, it is false that (I can do A) and (I can do ~A).
11. Therefore, I don’t have free will.

Hopefully everyone can understand what Im trying to say here.

 

[Lokadottir]

Good analogy there, but the more I thought about this thru out the day, below is kind of what I came up with, it is quite simple and IMO, is proof against our free will, I realize this discussion was about God allowing people to send themselves to Hell, but free will plays a big part of that, and being that God is all-knowing, I think the below best describes what Im trying to say…

1. God’s knowledge cannot be wrong.
2. God knows that I will do A.
3. If I have free will, then (I can do A) and (I can do ~A).
4. If I can do ~A, then it is possibly true that I will do ~A.
5. If it is possibly true that I will do ~A, then God’s ‘knowledge’ that I will do A is possibly false.
6. If God’s knowledge that I will do A is possibly false, then God’s knowledge can be wrong.
7. Therefore, God’s knowledge that I will do A is not possibly false.
8. Therefore, it is not possibly true that I will do ~A.
9. Therefore, I cannot do ~A.
10. Therefore, it is false that (I can do A) and (I can do ~A).
11. Therefore, I don’t have free will.

Hopefully everyone can understand what Im trying to say here.

well i think it was still your chose but God still knows where you end up

 

[mikekle]

well i think it was still your chose but God still knows where you end up

Thats impossible, but if what you are saying is true, then God creates some people KNOWING they will end up in hell…what purpose does this serve?