The All-Knowing Creates the Hell bound?

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seagal said:
You don’t fully comprehend (as none of us truly can) what it truly means to live outside God’s presence. Before hell comes the judgement, where we all stand before the throne of God. Just imagine for a moment what it must be like to be in the presence of a being who absolutely loves you, who is the act of loving itself. Imagine what it would be like to feel that love totally encompass you in a way you have never experienced before. Now imagine being escorted away from that awesome presence, never to experience it again for all eternity, knowing full well that you alone made that choice. That is hell.
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👍 An excellent image.
 
mikekle said:
If there is a ‘punishment’ for not choosing God, then that is not free will, its that simple.

If God had intended us to have true free will, ‘hell’ would just be another place where the dead end up, for those that chose to live without God in their lives, WITHOUT any kind of torture or suffering, it would not be good or bad, just another place…but the fact that hell is viewed as a place of torture and punishment for making the WRONG choice in life IMO is contradictory to true free will.
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It is a wrong choice but not due to ignorance. If we reject God’s love because we prefer to be independent we know exactly what the consequences are. We are prepared to pay the price for getting exactly what we want…
 
Charlemagne_II said:
**Loka

Although God grants free will, He has His own will as well. How could God create a man bound for hell? This would be action against His own will.**

Might as well ask why God creates people bound for heaven. Does it seem reasonable that God would reward evil with good? Then with what should he reward good?

You can’t get around free will. If people do not want God, God obliges them. But he will not force everyone into heaven. Their going to hell is against his will, but he created them free, and wills not to take away their freedom.
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Otherwise heaven would be a kingdom of slaves! We are in hell when we want absolute freedom because we are chained to ourselves and not liberated by love for others.
 
tonyrey said:
It is a wrong choice but not due to ignorance. If we reject God’s love because we prefer to be independent we know exactly what the consequences are. We are prepared to pay the price for getting exactly what we want…
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OK, so a person freely chooses to live without God in their life while alive, but they are good people, or I should say, are not evil, but upon their death they are doomed to a place of constant torture and suffering…??? why would torture and suffering for eternity be a part of the picture?..Its basically worship God… OR ELSE. LOL

Actually if it were free will, the ‘place’ where these types of people end up would be exactly like their existence while on earth, (essentially it would be LIFE WITHOUT GOD…right?), but most people say Hell is terrible, torture and suffering for all, that does not sound like life I live right now while Im alive…?

But on the other hand, if someone would say, even though a person chooses to live without God in their life while living, yet God still has influence/ control over us, even though we have made the choice to live without him, then that is not free will either.

There is a HUGE HUGE difference in people who simply choose to live their lives independently (but are good people…This is important), and Satan and the other fallen angels, but if according to God, they are the same, and these 2 groups end up in the same place, then IMO, something is VERY wrong.
 
Lokadottir said:
So this is my favorite theology/philosophy question:
  1. God is omniscient, knowing past, present, and future.
  2. God wants all humans to go to Heaven.
How can these two hold at once?
If God knows past, present, and future how can God create a human whose actions will lead to damnation? For these would be the result of free will but these actions would be known by God already.

This leads to three possibilities:
  1. God is not truly omniscient.
  2. God does not desire all his creations to reach heaven.
  3. All humans, even those deemed evil, are, in fact, saved.
How can these be reconciled?
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4.) God is Love itself and when Love creates, it cannot contradict itself. With that said one very obvious characteristic of love is that it cannot be forced; it can only be offered. The caveat to this is since Love can only be offered then this means Love can also be rejected; however, not without consequences. This is where justice comes in and it just so happens, God, is also Justice itself.

Now lets get to your question; why still create a world where beings would reject love? It’s because a world where beings would by their own free will, reciprocate the very same love, Love itself had for them; is a far better world than if there where no beings who could do this. Even if there was only one being that chose by their own free will to reciprocate such a Love; it would still be a better world than one which had no beings that could do this. Plus God being Justice itself means a world where there are beings who profess this truth is better than a world where there or no beings which profess this truth. The souls in Hell for all eternity profess the justice of God.

No lets ask you something. How could a world where there is no love and justice be a better world than one with love and justice?
 
**mik

There is a HUGE HUGE difference in people who simply choose to live their lives independently (but are good people…This is important), and Satan and the other fallen angels, but if according to God, they are the same, and these 2 groups end up in the same place, then IMO, something is VERY wrong. **

How do you define good people? People who live ordinary lives without going to jail?

A person who repudiates God can hardly be said to be good, nor matter what else he does with his life. A person who repudiates God has made his life on earth a kind of hell. Why should he expect anything more than hell through all eternity? The French atheist philosophers, Camus and Sartre, made a living depicting hell on earth without God. Read their novels and plays if you’re in doubt about that.

The illusion of some people is that we can be good while being harmless to others. But repudiating God makes us harmless to others and to ourselves.

“Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.” Revelations 3:16
 
mikekle said:
OK, so a person freely chooses to live without God in their life while alive, but they are good people, or I should say, are not evil, but upon their death they are doomed to a place of constant torture and suffering…??? why would torture and suffering for eternity be a part of the picture?..Its basically worship God… OR ELSE. LOL

Actually if it were free will, the ‘place’ where these types of people end up would be exactly like their existence while on earth, (essentially it would be LIFE WITHOUT GOD…right?), but most people say Hell is terrible, torture and suffering for all, that does not sound like life I live right now while Im alive…?

But on the other hand, if someone would say, even though a person chooses to live without God in their life while living, yet God still has influence/ control over us, even though we have made the choice to live without him, then that is not free will either.

There is a HUGE HUGE difference in people who simply choose to live their lives independently (but are good people…This is important), and Satan and the other fallen angels, but if according to God, they are the same, and these 2 groups end up in the same place, then IMO, something is VERY wrong.
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We aren’t expected to be infallible. We don’t go to Hell for being misguided but for making others suffer unnecessarily…
 
Lokadottir said:
So this is my favorite theology/philosophy question:
  1. God is omniscient, knowing past, present, and future.
  2. God wants all humans to go to Heaven.
How can these two hold at once?
If God knows past, present, and future how can God create a human whose actions will lead to damnation? For these would be the result of free will but these actions would be known by God already.
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What is the meaning of want? He wants all be saved regardless of their actions? is want unconditional or conditional on something? Bear in mind that for most Catholics (imbued in Thomism) it is a impossible for a person that sins mortally be saved since his action would require, supposedly, an infinite punishment.
Lokadottir said:
This leads to three possibilities:
  1. God is not truly omniscient.
  2. God does not desire all his creations to reach heaven.
  3. All humans, even those deemed evil, are, in fact, saved.
How can these be reconciled?
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1- I see no relevance between omniscience and wanting all to be saved. Don’t you mean that God is not omnipotent? Perhaps you mean that if God foreknows someone will be damned, why did he create him in the first place? But, even then, there would not be an explicit contradiction, Since the term want needs to be more precise

2- I want all of my students to get good grades, does it follow that I have an obligation to do that? Must I let poor, lazy students still get good grades? You need something stronger to get a contradiction since to want something is a modally weak term.

3- since universalism is not against catholic dogma I have no problem with this mode of thinking .

This is a very confused and confusing argument that you have, you need something more explicit and clear.
 
Lokadottir said:
So this is my favorite theology/philosophy question:
  1. God is omniscient, knowing past, present, and future.
  2. God wants all humans to go to Heaven.
How can these two hold at once?
If God knows past, present, and future how can God create a human whose actions will lead to damnation? For these would be the result of free will but these actions would be known by God already.

This leads to three possibilities:
  1. God is not truly omniscient.
  2. God does not desire all his creations to reach heaven.
  3. All humans, even those deemed evil, are, in fact, saved.
How can these be reconciled?
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First, future does not exist so it cannot be known.

Second, there is not such a thing like Heaven that some saved go to it after death and the rest go to Hell. We are involved in a process so called life, after death in another form, which last forever. We are subject to change and growth. The concept of Heaven and Hell is exactly oppose the idea of growth so they could not exist. Have you ever thought what you are going to do in Heaven until eternity?
 
Bahman said:
First, future does not exist so it cannot be known.

Second, there is not such a thing like Heaven that some saved go to it after death and the rest go to Hell. We are involved in a process so called life, after death in another form, which last forever. We are subject to change and growth. The concept of Heaven and Hell is exactly oppose the idea of growth so they could not exist. Have you ever thought what you are going to do in Heaven until eternity?
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‘until eternity’ - eternity in heaven/hell is the ever-present now for those there. In heaven everything is new because everything is now. In hell every dread is new because everything is now.
 
Paddy_Walker said:
‘until eternity’ - eternity in heaven/hell is the ever-present now for those there.
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How you could experience anything there?
Paddy_Walker said:
In heaven everything is new because everything is now.
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This is the most misleading term I have ever read. Everything is new which requires changes and everything is now which means no change.
Paddy_Walker said:
In hell every dread is new because everything is now.
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Dread from who? Loving God?
 
Bahman said:
How you could experience anything there?
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You experience the now now, you experience the now then, forever.
Bahman said:
This is the most misleading term I have ever read. Everything is new which requires changes and everything is now which means no change.
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No. Everything is new because you are in the now. Change requires time and material, neither of which exist as we know them, in the eternal now.
Bahman said:
Dread from who? Loving God?
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Maybe. If you were afraid of him because of a guilty conscience. But more likely of the resident of that other place.
 
Credo_in_Deum said:
The only caveat is you would have to exist, to even come to such a conclusion.
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God wouldn’t have to create me to know that I would come to that conclusion.

Any way you look at it, hell is a sticky issue. Either we misunderstand it or we misunderstand God.
 
God creates no-one who is destined to hell. He creates all so that they can enjoy the eternal joy of heaven. We choose to go to hell God down to hell.
 
Prodigal son takes his inheritence and blows it on “good” times. Eventually, he finds himself starving and cold, living in a pig sty. He goes home, apologizes for his total stupidity. All celebrate and feast on the fatted calf. How cruel to blackmail him like that.
 
DaddyGirl said:
But then…why would God punish someone who exercises the free will He has lovingly given them, and decides not to have the kind of relationship He offers?

That doesn’t sound so much like free will. It’s sounds more like…blackmail?
(no offense intended)

.
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God doesn’t punish anyone. Those who reject Love punish themselves.
 
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