R
Rau
Guest
Pragmatic is not the opposite of subjective. Sometimes, pragmatic judgements are necessarily subjective, especially when the subject matter is human behaviour, not hard science.
The American Psychological Association and homosexual partners raising kids
- Status
O
on_the_hill
Guest
Hmm…I haven’t known a whole lot of gay men, but I’d bet there *are *those who sit on the couch with one hand in their waistband and a beer in the other hand and watch football.So could a gay man become straight if they learned and understood how to be a man? Maybe there should be “How to Be a Man” classes for gay men who want to become straight.
On the other hand, I don’t do that.
Boy, will my wife be surprised.
O
on_the_hill
Guest
In that case playing football is probably a bad idea. Football players are domestic abusers.Yes, it is. I’ve watched videos and read descriptions of different SSA support group type activities, and sports, manly
What I’d like to see instead is support groups aimed at abusers to learn how to be real men and not abuse their partners and/or children.
B
bobballen_18
Guest
Short answer to your question, since this is not directly related (though possibly indirectly) to the OP: yes. Edit: not an unequivocal yes; by yes, I only mean to claim it is possible for an SSA individual to diminish or in some cases eliminate his SSA through certain means. You put it in a very condescending and insulting way, so clearly you and I have a different understanding of what such would entail, but as someone with plenty of (unwanted) SSA I welcome any inquiry into the roots of the development of homosexuality in an individual, which will require a full, in-depth analysis on the SSA individual’s perception of his own masculinity, how that perception originated, and whether that perception is in line with the Church’s teaching on both the inherent dignity and worth of each and every human, and the identity of each and every human being in his male-ness (or her female-ness).So could a gay man become straight if they learned and understood how to be a man? Maybe there should be “How to Be a Man” classes for gay men who want to become straight.
P.S.: That’s probably what reparative therapy programs claim to do…teach gay men how to be real men.
It is very possible that homosexuality is an identity problem, so it has a lot more to do with the whole human person than with a person’s sexual attractions. It is in this sense that SSA individuals need to learn to “be a man”. It is not that SSA individuals needs to start playing football or something; it is so much more, so much more deep, than that.
*yikes, that was the “short” answer…I could go on and on regarding my thoughts on this
A
_Abyssinia
Guest
There was a 2005 brief of 59 studies cited by the American Psychological Association and Loren Marks did an analyses of sorts in this:
The Science direct full analyses is under a paywall but the above link cited this information and I hope it is ok and legal to post that here.
If one of the reasons the APA were basing their opinions regarding the parenting of children as of 2005, on the backs of many of these studies, that raises concern and question, because these studies did not have, I think it can be argued, the best methodology, and when your dealing with a subject as serious as the raising of children, don’t you ideally need the best methodology, so why didn’t the APA wait for pehaps more studies to be done with better methodology?
To be fair, since 2005 more studies regarding parenting have been released, so where are the studies that counter multiple points made by Loren Marks?
acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/parenting-issues/defending-traditional-marriage
The Science direct full analyses is under a paywall but the above link cited this information and I hope it is ok and legal to post that here.
sciencedirect.com/science/journal/0049089X/41/4
If one of the reasons the APA were basing their opinions regarding the parenting of children as of 2005, on the backs of many of these studies, that raises concern and question, because these studies did not have, I think it can be argued, the best methodology, and when your dealing with a subject as serious as the raising of children, don’t you ideally need the best methodology, so why didn’t the APA wait for pehaps more studies to be done with better methodology?
To be fair, since 2005 more studies regarding parenting have been released, so where are the studies that counter multiple points made by Loren Marks?
R
Rau
Guest
The APA has no interest in “approving” of anybody’s activity. It is making guidelines for what can/should be treated. Treating patients who:
- are not a danger to others;
- are able to function effectively in society;
- do not desire or seek treatment;
O
on_the_hill
Guest
I noticed how “ignore” got linked to “approve.”The APA has no interest in “approving” of anybody’s activity. It is making guidelines for what can/should be treated. Treating patients who:
and, in circumstances where this is no accepted treatment, would be problematic.
- are not a danger to others;
- are able to function effectively in society;
- do not desire or seek treatment;
Just to play the other side–one could argue that homosexual activity (to separate the condition of having SSA from sexual activity) is a danger to all of us and is a danger to society. How they are a danger, I do not know. But people will argue that, by their very existence, they are. Then they will cite Sodom and Gomorrah as examples of how the danger can incite God’s wrath. Then we’ll link it to hurricanes, droughts, floods, forest fires, and terrorist attacks.
Z
zz912
Guest
These are mutually contradictory posts. So which one is your actual view?
Z
zz912
Guest
A woman cannot be a dad, and cannot mimic or replace a dad. And a man cannot be a mother, nor mimic and replace a mother.
I really hope whoever this is isn’t doing this thinking it’s going to “cure” their SSA.Yes, it is. I’ve watched videos and read descriptions of different SSA support group type activities, and sports, manly
B
bobballen_18
Guest
But why does the APA get to decide for all SSA individuals, though, that SSA does not/cannot be treated, when the evidence on either side is either non-existent or inconclusive? Why should the APA have any interest in going along with “popular opinion” and doing everything they can to make it seem as if SSA is no problem at all, that everyone who is not happy with their SSA must be crazy and just needs to come out and embrace the gay lifestyle and they will be happy? OK that is assuming an awful lot, but still.The APA has no interest in “approving” of anybody’s activity. It is making guidelines for what can/should be treated. Treating patients who:
and, in circumstances where this is no accepted treatment, would be problematic.
- are not a danger to others;
- are able to function effectively in society;
- do not desire or seek treatment;
In short: what is the APA saying about those SSA individuals who believe they are NOT “able to function effectively in society” due to their SSA, and who DO “desire or seek treatment”?
I read somewhere (I think it was in this thread or one of the other threads involving the APA) that there is a category in the DSM of, I don’t know what they call them, conditions? or something which they classify as problems only if the individual sees it as a problem themselves. Well, by taking homosexuality off of even that list and not mentioning it at all in any category of the DSM, aren’t they at the very least implying that homosexuality is not a problem in any way, shape, or form, even if the individual who has SSA thinks it is a problem himself? Are they claiming such an individual is just a repressed religious freak or something? There are so many problems with the modern understanding of homosexuality, and the APA only goes along with it and contributes to the marginalization of SSA individuals who don’t want the attractions.
O
on_the_hill
Guest
I don’t know for sure, but if an SSA person went to a psychologist or psychiatrist and said, “Doc, I need help…” the doctor wouldn’t tell him, “The book says you’re healthy,” and dismiss him. I would expect the doctor to help him.
R
Robert_Sock
Guest
I read a journal article some time ago about a male homosexual couple, where one partner despised anal intercourse. Instead of questioning whether the homosexual lifestyle was right for this guy, the therapist decided to treat this guy by trying to make him more comfortable with anal intercourse. I felt peeved towards the psychologist and eventually retired from being a research psychologist in that I could not serve God and the field of psychology at the same time.
T
Thorolfr
Guest
The evidence that treating people to change their SSA is usually unsuccessful is hardly non-existent or inconclusive. If the kind of ex-gay reparataive therapy/conversion therapy groups that attempt to do this were such a success, then why did Exodus International, the leading group in that field decide to close down two years ago?
reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-usa-gay-exodus-idUSBRE95J0W020130621
T
Thorolfr
Guest
Maybe the therapist should have pointed out that not all gay men engage in anal intercourse.
B
bobballen_18
Guest
That is hardly conclusive evidence that efforts to “change SSA” are either completely or in large part unsuccessful. This only says that ONE (though admittedly major, it appears) group has stopped offering reparative therapy of sorts and that its leaders, for various reasons (admittedly some of which were because they felt they had harmed people) made this decision. Exodus International, however, is hardly the only group that offers such therapy. You might ridicule me for using wikipedia…lol…but the Wikipedia entry for Exodus International mentions three studies done on Exodus participants, each of which found a significant number of favorable outcomes.
And don’t give me that “oh those studies are biased” stuff. Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t. For every biased study I might cite, there is another biased study on the other side which is commonly used.
Bottom line is - I don’t claim to deny that there are people out there who claim to have been hurt by some form of reparative therapy. No - what I want to claim that I don’t believe ANYONE can disprove is that there is a SIGNIFICANT number of people who claim to have been HELPED in some way through some form of reparative therapy. I am getting sick of people pretending that there have only been negative results from of it. Check out the wikipedia page for Exodus International and look at those three studies. Check out NARTH. Check out the stories on josephnicolosi.com, check out peoplecanchange.org.
Oh yeah, I forgot, all of those people have been manipulated or are outright lying.
Give me a break.The more and more I research it myself and get involved in reparative therapy myself, the more and more I realize even faithful Catholics are being affected by the gay ideologies being promoted by the secular world which paint reparative therapy as like 100% evil. Good grief.
R
Rau
Guest
If a person is not coping with their SSA, eg. Depressive, they can be treated for their distress by a range of practitioners. But I guess that treatment will be directed at the depression not the SSA. How does one offer non-existent treatment?
Paraphilias. There are differing “expert” views on whether homosexuality is properly regarded as a paraphilia or not. I’ve not read any of these so can’t really express a view. But, to the extent homosexuality does fit the definition of a paraphilia, it is reasonable to argue political influence in dropping it from that list. I note that there are also calls for the remaining paraphilias to be dropped from the DSM, and that there are no accepted treatments for any paraphilia.
In my view, homosexuality and all the paraphilia are plainly aberrant. But if their genesis is entirely unknown and there are no accepted treatments, what are practitioners to do? I presume researchers remain able to conduct research by inviting participation in studies, regardless of the position adopted in the DSM.
B
bobballen_18
Guest
OK, I probably shouldn’t have mentioned “non-existent” since I don’t myself believe that evidence on either side is non-existent. I think I may have only added that in because there are people on both sides who claim there is no evidence for the other side.
I feel like we are going off topic based on the title of the thread. But I’m going to keep on going anyway…lol.
Sure, depression may be a form of “not coping” with SSA. There have been proposed theories/arguments, though, that there is something further behind SSA, that SSA isn’t a condition one is born with - i.e., various factors in one’s development, beginning very early in one’s life, culminating in having SSA from whatever age. So sure, if something is behind SSA, the treatment won’t (always at least) be addressing sexuality and/or sexual attractions - it would be addressing those factors which they would argue led to the development of SSA.
OK, thanks for recalling that info about paraphilias for me.
I guess my whole point in posting is that I reject the view that “their genesis is entirely unknown” when it comes to homosexuality. Entirely? I don’t think so.
Regarding treatment - see what I mentioned above - maybe there is no “accepted” treatment, but this doesn’t mean that there exist no treatments which haven’t been successful, it really only means, well, that such treatments haven’t been accepted yet as valid, basically. There must be continued research, and there must be research allowed on all forms of treatment, and as far as I am concerned, all treatment must be allowed as long as a potential patient is properly educated on the treatment he is seeking and as long as the treatment is not outright harmful.
Let’s be honest here, the biggest reason there are so many claims around that there is “no cure” for homosexuality revolves around the fact that we live in a culture that promotes same-sex relationships and unions as equal to opposite-sex relationships and marriages, and with this mindset, there is no point in looking for a “cure” to homosexuality.
Sure, what a “cure for homosexuality” would look like is a good debate - probably an ongoing one, though one wouldn’t know it since working through SSA seems to be frowned upon by society these days.
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
Oh, I think most would if the issue is homosexuality. They do not want to be ostracized in their profession, or prosecuted for doing it.
- Status