The American Psychological Association and homosexual partners raising kids

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I doubt that reparative therapy programs are very effective, but I actually have no problem with adults attending such programs if they want. And as far as I know, none of the laws that restrict such programs applies to adults but only to children which I think is good since I’ve heard too many stories of adolescents being forced or coerced into such therapy programs by their parents against their will.
Ah ok, great, I’m glad you don’t have a problem with adults attending such programs!

I think it is fine/fair to have concerns about kids attending such programs, but IMHO don’t think it should be banned. I think it can be a bad thing to “force” one’s children into any therapy program, but certainly not necessarily a bad thing. Certainly there should be room allowed for it under the right circumstances. In my opinion, most circumstances are adequate to allow a parent to at least have the option to put their children in such therapy, but I understand there could be legitimate debate about that.
There’s still a consumer protection issue, though.

If some religious group had a faith-based program that didn’t purport to be “therapy” or something similar, I’d go along with someone’s (adult) “right” to participate in it.

But, in this country today, just as you can’t practice medicine without a license, it doesn’t seem to promote a therapy as legitimate and take people’s money for it when it’s not likely to work.
 
You seem to be making a different point. The question I am asking is "why do some people reject out of hand the possibility that there is a biological component in SSA?
Years of conditioning that Gay is OK. It’s just assumed, and reinforced, that SSA is a natural event, and in any case, why waste time and money on biological research for that? As I read elsewhere, without scientific support, the goal is “to make being gay as unremarkable as being left-handed.”

amazon.com/Making-Gay-Okay-Rationalizing-Homosexual/dp/1586178334

Facts are sparse and those who study human sexuality aren’t mentioned often or attacked when their data does not fit the narrative.

Ed
 
Years of conditioning that Gay is OK. It’s just assumed, and reinforced, that SSA is a natural event, and in any case, why waste time and money on biological research for that? As I read elsewhere, without scientific support, the goal is “to make being gay as unremarkable as being left-handed.”

amazon.com/Making-Gay-Okay-Rationalizing-Homosexual/dp/1586178334

Facts are sparse and those who study human sexuality aren’t mentioned often or attacked when their data does not fit the narrative.

Ed
I see that perspective. The people I am thinking of however are already convinced gay (behaviour) is not OK. They take the view that the inclination is a choice, or that they fell into it and formed a “habit” or were seduced or similar. But they rule out the possibility of something biological being a factor. I don’t understand why, unless it is a fear that a biological cause implies a “natural” character to the condition, making acting on it ok. Wrong logic of course, but I wonder if that is their thought process.
 
I see that perspective. The people I am thinking of however are already convinced gay (behaviour) is not OK. They take the view that the inclination is a choice, or that they fell into it and formed a “habit” or were seduced or similar. But they rule out the possibility of something biological being a factor. I don’t understand why, unless it is a fear that a biological cause implies a “natural” character to the condition, making acting on it ok. Wrong logic of course, but I wonder if that is their thought process.
Among other thoughts:

Abortion recommended on finding certain genetic markers that indicate the baby will be born with certain defects.

"A recent major development in prenatal testing is the introduction of non-invasive prenatal
testing for Down’s syndrome (NIPT). This involves a maternal blood test from which
circulating cell free fetal DNA is extracted for analysis. Without putting her pregnancy at
risk a woman can get a 99 per cent accurate assessment of the chance of her baby having Down’s syndrome.
This is 10-15 per cent more accurate than standard screening tests.

“NIPT is widely available in the private sector from 10 weeks’ gestation and an evaluation
study is underway to see how it might be implemented within the National Health Service
(NHS). At the same time a new technique for detecting chromosomal anomalies is being
introduced into practice. Known as array comparative genomic hybridization (arrayCGH)…”

If a genetic component is found for homosexuality, it might, as the argument goes, cause some mothers to abort or, as the technology develops, potentially allow for a “correction” to be made to the genome.

I am, of course, against abortion.

Ed
 
Among other thoughts:

Abortion recommended on finding certain genetic markers that indicate the baby will be born with certain defects.

"A recent major development in prenatal testing is the introduction of non-invasive prenatal
testing for Down’s syndrome (NIPT). This involves a maternal blood test from which
circulating cell free fetal DNA is extracted for analysis. Without putting her pregnancy at
risk a woman can get a 99 per cent accurate assessment of the chance of her baby having Down’s syndrome.
This is 10-15 per cent more accurate than standard screening tests.

“NIPT is widely available in the private sector from 10 weeks’ gestation and an evaluation
study is underway to see how it might be implemented within the National Health Service
(NHS). At the same time a new technique for detecting chromosomal anomalies is being
introduced into practice. Known as array comparative genomic hybridization (arrayCGH)…”

If a genetic component is found for homosexuality, it might, as the argument goes, cause some mothers to abort or, as the technology develops, potentially allow for a “correction” to be made to the genome.

I am, of course, against abortion.

Ed
cell-free DNA fetal testing will probably become more common in the near future. Right now it is offered at about 10 weeks into the pregnancy. What it can detect is aneuploidy(abnormal chromosomal disorders like that seen in Down’s syndrome) and some single gene inherited diseases (like cystic fibrosis).

Additionally, complicated things like homosexuality wouldn’t have a simple inherited gene pattern. More than likely is a multifactorial thing that has multiple genes playing different roles that interact with each other and complicated with different environmental factors, and probably influenced by other things at particular critical periods (not to mention probably different importance and relevance in different individuals). ***To avoid people screaming at me: regardless of genetic component or not, acting on the attractions would not be moral

Another point, you are focusing on the evil that can be used from this type of testing (side note: right now it represents a screening test only, and it is not capable of diagnosis at this time). However, I can see the good it can be used for.

Many congenital defects such as heart issues do have genetic components (For example Down Syndrome children often have heart defects), if these physical defects are detected early, we can do some possible intrauterine interventions to help alleviate and lead to a better overall prognosis for the child. Additionally, by giving some parents (if they should choose) the knowledge of a child’s diagnosis with a disorder like Down’s Syndrome, they could better prepare themselves for raising the child both via education and emotionally. Just because some might use this information for evil doesn’t justify stopping it.

Just my rambling two cents.
 
cell-free DNA fetal testing will probably become more common in the near future. Right now it is offered at about 10 weeks into the pregnancy. What it can detect is aneuploidy(abnormal chromosomal disorders like that seen in Down’s syndrome) and some single gene inherited diseases (like cystic fibrosis).

Additionally, complicated things like homosexuality wouldn’t have a simple inherited gene pattern. More than likely is a multifactorial thing that has multiple genes playing different roles that interact with each other and complicated with different environmental factors, and probably influenced by other things at particular critical periods (not to mention probably different importance and relevance in different individuals). ***To avoid people screaming at me: regardless of genetic component or not, acting on the attractions would not be moral

Another point, you are focusing on the evil that can be used from this type of testing (side note: right now it represents a screening test only, and it is not capable of diagnosis at this time). However, I can see the good it can be used for.

Many congenital defects such as heart issues do have genetic components (For example Down Syndrome children often have heart defects), if these physical defects are detected early, we can do some possible intrauterine interventions to help alleviate and lead to a better overall prognosis for the child. Additionally, by giving some parents (if they should choose) the knowledge of a child’s diagnosis with a disorder like Down’s Syndrome, they could better prepare themselves for raising the child both via education and emotionally. Just because some might use this information for evil doesn’t justify stopping it.

Just my rambling two cents.
I’ve seen no studies suggesting homosexuality would be more or less complicated on the genetic level than, say, recent findings regarding smoking. The genome is far more complex than originally thought and certain bizarre assumptions about non-coding DNA are mostly gone, and gene mapping continues.

My point appears to have been missed entirely. Right now, very short segments of animal DNA are being cut out and the ends reconnected in a literal trial and error way. The animal is then studied for any changes after the “genetic knock-out” occurs. If segment 6N339 has a reproducible result then it will be noted - good or bad. Genetic engineering may provide a means to alter the genome in a number of ways, including, some think, by replacing a portion of the genome that increases susceptibility to homosexual tendencies with the “correct sequence” spliced in after the “undesired” sequence is spliced out.

I’m not against genetic testing in general.

Ed
 
The problem with this theory is that for most gay young people, especially in the past, their first experience of sexual attraction, often from the age of 9-11, was to other boys of their own sex at the same time that most boys their own age were starting to experience attractions to the opposite sex. In many cases, such gay youth went for 10 years or more, perhaps until coming out in their early 20s, with no sexual experience at all because they didn’t know any other gay people or were afraid to disclose their sexual orientation because of the stigma involved.

The more accepting attitude to gay people which makes it easier for gay youth to come out earlier is still quite recent, within the last 25 years. And 25-30 years ago, gay porn was not so easily available since there was no Internet. What existed was in magazines which were only sold in certain sex shops in big cities and most gay youth did not have easy access to this. So taking this into account, how can SSA that arises in a 10 year old boy who grew up in a normal family in a small town with no openly gay people, no access to gay porn, and who experienced no sexual abuse of any sort be explained by sexual experiences that become persistent?
Why do people end up with shoe or lingerie fetishes? Apparently, or so some maintain, it’s because they experienced early sexual pleasure somehow related to those things and fixated on them. There is no particular reason to believe homosexuality is different in that way.

But okay, if unbiased studies were done on 10 year olds who grow up in normal families in small towns with no openly gay people, no access to gay porn and experienced no sexual abuse of any kind, yet become homosexuals, then perhaps such a study could be useful if one could find enough of them for a study and if they told the truth.
 
Seems to me you are seeking to introduce evidence by arm-waving.

I don’t know the facts here. There is no justification to not study the causes of one’s sexual interests.
The proper response to “arm waving” as you call it, is to demonstrate the contrary. Otherwise it’s just one assertion vs another assertion. here’s something to work with. Yes, I know, the FRC is utterly discounted by some. familyresearchinst.org/2009/02/what-causes-homosexual-desire-and-can-it-be-changed/

I did not say there’s no justification in studying sexual interests. My point was that it would be difficult for anyone to get funding to do it without biasing it according to current political views. And taking a contrary view to the current received wisdom could be career-destroying to the one who came up with it.
 
You just called the Family Research Counsel a “hilarious” and “junk science” organization, and their studies are completely discredited. Not much room for discussion here; you sound like you have already made up your mind. :confused:
Exactly 👍
 
I’m a retired research psychologists and I quit APA largely because they were insisting that psychologists treat children as sexual beings, as opposed to spiritual beings. APA is heavily influenced by cultural norms, and APA caters to them. APA used to say that homosexuality was a mental disorder (which it is), but APA changed its stance due to cultural change, and now treats homosexuality as “normal.” Psychologists that do not go along with APA’s agenda are ignored and criticized. I felt that I was selling my soul to remain a member of APA.
I love this answer. Children are spiritual beings not sexual beings. Perfect.
 
That is hardly conclusive evidence that efforts to “change SSA” are either completely or in large part unsuccessful. This only says that ONE (though admittedly major, it appears) group has stopped offering reparative therapy of sorts and that its leaders, for various reasons (admittedly some of which were because they felt they had harmed people) made this decision. Exodus International, however, is hardly the only group that offers such therapy. You might ridicule me for using wikipedia…lol…but the Wikipedia entry for Exodus International mentions three studies done on Exodus participants, each of which found a significant number of favorable outcomes.

And don’t give me that “oh those studies are biased” stuff. Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t. For every biased study I might cite, there is another biased study on the other side which is commonly used.

Bottom line is - I don’t claim to deny that there are people out there who claim to have been hurt by some form of reparative therapy. No - what I want to claim that I don’t believe ANYONE can disprove is that there is a SIGNIFICANT number of people who claim to have been HELPED in some way through some form of reparative therapy. I am getting sick of people pretending that there have only been negative results from of it. Check out the wikipedia page for Exodus International and look at those three studies. Check out NARTH. Check out the stories on josephnicolosi.com, check out peoplecanchange.org.

Oh yeah, I forgot, all of those people have been manipulated or are outright lying. :rolleyes: Give me a break.

The more and more I research it myself and get involved in reparative therapy myself, the more and more I realize even faithful Catholics are being affected by the gay ideologies being promoted by the secular world which paint reparative therapy as like 100% evil. Good grief.
Having been in your shoes at one time, I know there is very little chance of talking you out of pursuing this therapy. I know that if someone had warned me at the time I started reparative therapy, I would have dismissed their concerns. Sexual desires are nothing compared to the desire to be “normal,” to not have to live with this. Denouncing reparative therapy to me at that time would have amounted to taking away my hope. Having said that, I wish someone would have warned me and that I would have listened. That is the reason I am writing this. Reparative therapy was incredibly damaging for me and for most everyone I know who has been through it. All I can say to you is to please be careful. If something feels wrong, pay attention to that feeling. And be careful of putting your complete trust in these people. They are well intentioned, but that does not make them right. I gave a testimonial that was used in promotional material for a long time and I know that I am included in at least one study in which I am considered a success story, when I’m anything but. Not everything is as it seems. I tell you this only because I would hate for you to go through what I went through and am still trying to recover from. Just please, please be careful. I will be praying for you.
 
Having been in your shoes at one time, I know there is very little chance of talking you out of pursuing this therapy. I know that if someone had warned me at the time I started reparative therapy, I would have dismissed their concerns. Sexual desires are nothing compared to the desire to be “normal,” to not have to live with this. Denouncing reparative therapy to me at that time would have amounted to taking away my hope. Having said that, I wish someone would have warned me and that I would have listened. That is the reason I am writing this. Reparative therapy was incredibly damaging for me and for most everyone I know who has been through it. All I can say to you is to please be careful. If something feels wrong, pay attention to that feeling. And be careful of putting your complete trust in these people. They are well intentioned, but that does not make them right. I gave a testimonial that was used in promotional material for a long time and I know that I am included in at least one study in which I am considered a success story, when I’m anything but. Not everything is as it seems. I tell you this only because I would hate for you to go through what I went through and am still trying to recover from. Just please, please be careful. I will be praying for you.
Can you tell us what comprises this therapy (what happens?), and what damage it caused you?
 
Can you tell us what comprises this therapy (what happens?), and what damage it caused you?
Reparative therapy first provides you an explanation of why and how you developed “same sex attractions,” which results from a distant, absent or abusive father and an overbearing mother. Because of these improper relationships with your parents, you fail to properly bond with your father, which causes you to be unable to form healthy and appropriate bonds with other men, and your ssa results out of a longing for this healthy type of same sex bonding that was denied to you and manifests itself in these inappropriate desires, or so the theory goes. It also suggests that gay men are far more likely to have been the victims of sexual abuse. Reparative therapy attempts to heal these bonds by creating “healthy” bonding relationships with other men and correcting your inappropriate relationship with women that represent your mother’s overbearing influence. As you correct these relationships and form these more “natural” bonds, your ssa is supposed to dissipate and you naturally start to develop attraction toward women. In a nutshell, that’s what it’s all about.

Reparative therapy hurt not only me, but my family as well. They will say it’s about providing an explanation rather than assigning blame, but it assigns blame and created tremendous guilt for both of my parents. It encouraged me to rethink the appropriateness of interactions with adult men as a child, and caused me to eventually develop what I now believe to be false memories of abuse.

In order to develop healthy relationships with other men, they told me I needed to embrace a more traditionally masculine role by learning to mimic other heterosexual men. I needed to play and develop an interest in sports and give up my interest in art and anything else not considered to be traditionally masculine. I not only needed to change my interests, but to act against every instinct I had in my interactions with other people. What question or comment I might make to someone, needed to be replaced with a more gender appropriate comment or question. What felt natural to me needed to be changed to what ought to feel natural to me. I had to give up my friendships with women whom I was much more easily able to form friendships, friendships that were very comforting to me.

And I did all of this. I changed my voice, my walk, my mannerisms, my interests, my interactions with other people. I developed “healthy” relationships with men. I cut off my friendships with women. I spoke in front of audiences about the changes God was making in my life. I even started dating women. I thought of myself as a success, but what I wasn’t able to acknowledge is that nothing had really changed as far as my sexual attractions. But that was something I wouldn’t even consider at the time. To even entertain that thought was unthinkable. Any doubt I acknowledge was just inviting the devil into my life to sabotage my efforts to turn away from ssa and embrace a holy life that was pleasing to God. It wasn’t just that I felt pressured to report success because everyone else did too, it was that believing you had changed and that God could heal you was the key to achieving that change.

I felt like an actor who was coached and trained to play a role, a role that I would just keep playing forever. And the ex-gay community rewarded me for that. I could fake it really well, but there was nothing about me that felt authentic. There was nothing left of the person who began reparative therapy 5 years previously. The one therapist I tried to talk to about it told me that over time it would feel more natural and it would become for me, as I would see, the man I was truly meant to be. I wasn’t successful in romantic relationships with women, but they still considered me a success and may still because I’ve never had a relationships with a man either. But how could I have a relationship with anyone? I was left a hollow shell of a person who didn’t feel authentic in this new life, and yet who couldn’t remember or embrace anything about who I was in the past. Even my relationship with God didn’t feel authentic anymore.

The only thing I really felt was shame. Reparative therapy had worked for other people, what was wrong with me? Was I just evil? Did God hate me? All of my friendships that used to make me feel grounded I had ended. There was turmoil in my family because once you suggest that a relative might have abused you, you can never take that back. My parents were so invested in my success to alleviate the guilt that had been instilled in them for what they had been told was their role in making me gay. Being a failure would have destroyed them so I couldn’t talk to them. The ex-gay community doesn’t want to hear that you didn’t succeed and they tend to cut ties with those who express doubt, because inviting doubt into your life is allowing the devil to sneak in and sabotage you.
So for years I just kept it to myself, pretended that I had no doubts, tried to convince myself that I had been healed like everyone else, and at the same time feeling such shame because even among all of these other men like me I knew, there was something horribly wrong and evil about me that made me fail where they succeeded (which of course I learned later was exactly what they were thinking)

I ended up attempting suicide and came very close to dying. I ran into one of my therapists after this incident and he was disappointed in my suicide attempt but elated by the fact it wasn’t as a result of having given in to my “homosexual inclinations,” because that is all they truly care about. My life was in shambles, but to him I was still a success because the only way I count, the only value I have in the ex-gay community is that I’m not in a gay relationship. That’s in the end all they truly care about.
 
…I ended up attempting suicide and came very close to dying. I ran into one of my therapists after this incident and he was disappointed in my suicide attempt but elated by the fact it wasn’t as a result of having given in to my “homosexual inclinations,” because that is all they truly care about. My life was in shambles, but to him I was still a success because the only way I count, the only value I have in the ex-gay community is that I’m not in a gay relationship. That’s in the end all they truly care about.
Thanks for that. It seems to me the goal in this therapy is a significant overreach, brought about by a belief that the cause is fully understood.

Realistically (IMHO), therapy can at most assist a person to cope with their circumstance. But then, two paths arise - go with it, or turn away from the inclination. I can see why psychologists might want to steer clear…
 
Reparative therapy first provides you an explanation of why and how you developed “same sex attractions,” which results from a distant, absent or abusive father and an overbearing mother. Because of these improper relationships with your parents, you fail to properly bond with your father, which causes you to be unable to form healthy and appropriate bonds with other men, and your ssa results out of a longing for this healthy type of same sex bonding that was denied to you and manifests itself in these inappropriate desires, or so the theory goes. It also suggests that gay men are far more likely to have been the victims of sexual abuse. Reparative therapy attempts to heal these bonds by creating “healthy” bonding relationships with other men and correcting your inappropriate relationship with women that represent your mother’s overbearing influence. As you correct these relationships and form these more “natural” bonds, your ssa is supposed to dissipate and you naturally start to develop attraction toward women. In a nutshell, that’s what it’s all about.
Thank you for posing this and I’m sorry that you went through all of this.

More than 30 years ago when I was 21, I came out to two of my cousins with whom I had been very close growing up and told them that I thought I might be gay (they were the first people I came out to). A few days later, one of them gave me a book by Rev. Tim LaHaye called What Everyone Should Know About Homosexuality. It was full of the same kinds of theories you mention about distant, absent or abusive fathers and overbearing, smothering mothers. But it made absolutely no sense to me since I didn’t have a distant, absent or abusive father or an overbearing mother. Quite the opposite. I had a great childhood and loving parents and I’m still very close to my father even now. Nor was I ever abused emotionally or sexually by anyone else growing up.

My cousins then convinced me to go talk to the pastor of the Baptist church that a lot of my family attended and this pastor told me that if I didn’t change and instead chose to follow a “homosexual lifestyle” (I was still a virgin at that time) that I would go to hell. I ignored his advice and hardly set foot into another Christian church for more than fifteen years after that. One of my two cousins who became increasingly conservative in his religious views gradually kind of shunned me and we haven’t talked in many years which still makes me feel kind of sad sometimes. But I’m glad that I wasn’t convinced to try reparative therapy.
 
Having been in your shoes at one time, I know there is very little chance of talking you out of pursuing this therapy. I know that if someone had warned me at the time I started reparative therapy, I would have dismissed their concerns. Sexual desires are nothing compared to the desire to be “normal,” to not have to live with this. Denouncing reparative therapy to me at that time would have amounted to taking away my hope. Having said that, I wish someone would have warned me and that I would have listened. That is the reason I am writing this. Reparative therapy was incredibly damaging for me and for most everyone I know who has been through it. All I can say to you is to please be careful. If something feels wrong, pay attention to that feeling. And be careful of putting your complete trust in these people. They are well intentioned, but that does not make them right. I gave a testimonial that was used in promotional material for a long time and I know that I am included in at least one study in which I am considered a success story, when I’m anything but. Not everything is as it seems. I tell you this only because I would hate for you to go through what I went through and am still trying to recover from. Just please, please be careful. I will be praying for you.
Thank you for the prayers, and thank you for sharing your experience.

First, I can see that throughout most of my posts, I have been explicitly defending something called “reparative therapy”. I am not sure what the actual definition of “reparative therapy” is, but I am sure it does include most of what was outlined above in Recov_Catholic’s experience.

At least as my personal view stands now, and this is based on both personal experience with SSA and on my general understanding of what constitutes reparative therapy. I think that at least on the face of things, it’s plainly obvious that every single idea behind the reparative therapy model is not true for all SSA individuals, and that though I do believe many/most of the ideas are true at least to some extent for some SSA individuals, and that therefore it is okay for therapists to address these ideas with the individuals, no therapist should ever force these ideas upon anyone.

I also want to propose the idea that even if one had loving parents, it’s at least possible that some of these things which reparative therapists blame on parents could still come about. In some way, this is my case - I did not have abusive parents and I had loving parents. In my opinion, there are many ideas in reparative therapy which have merit - I think that no matter the exact sequence of events which leads to development of SSA in a person (yes, I think it is a development failure within a person), at its core it is still somewhat of an identity crisis, and that SSA is still some sort of a “reparative” issue.

So basically, though I have yet to come to a conclusion about my parents’ role (other than the obvious fact that whatever their role was [if they did have any role], they did not intend it for me or know it would lead to my development of SSA) in it, I still believe that SSA in males has its roots in not necessarily a negatively defined relationship with the father (though that is the case for some), but probably in some sort of defect in relating to males in general, from an early age; development of SSA results from this defect.

Yeah. I guess I said more than I meant to say. It’s hard to explain. As I said, I’m still working on this myself and probably will be for some time. Recov_Catholic, regarding your plea to me to be very careful - I really do appreciate your concern, and I understand this warning comes with a personal experience of yours. I just wanted to say that I don’t agree with an exact set of causes being thrown on a person with SSA, as it seems was done in your case - so with my therapist, I am doing my best to make it clear that I’m not going to just make myself believe everything he says, and I’m doing my best to voice my opinion when something he is saying doesn’t agree with my experience. In any case, I don’t know how much longer I’ll be seeing him, but I do know that he has been helpful to me in introducing the ideas behind reparative therapy and this has opened the door to a lot of possible causes of my development of SSA because the bottom line is, I firmly believe that development of SSA is still a defect in a person. Obviously this doesn’t make a person any less valuable because all people have defects of some sort. But all defects have a cause behind them, don’t they? And I don’t think it hurts to delve into all of the possibilities behind the development of defects, and I definitely don’t think it hurts to encourage people to ask questions about how things happened in their life.
 
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