The Answer to Catholicism - Right in God's Word

[Sanctus]

kyle8921:

Without him, Christianty does not exist.

You’re right…it is “Christ”-ianity after all

kyle8921:

For these reasons, and many more, I no longer can believe what the Catholic Church teaches or believes.

It’s a shame that you’ve been driven away from the Church, but as you’ve shown you don’t appear to really understand the Church. Pity. You should truly read the Bible, the Catechism, the Early Church Fathers, and all notable theologians with an open heart…it can lead nowhere else but the Catholic Church. God Bless you and I will pray for you. PM me if you like.

In the future I suggest you bring up specific points of disagreement instead of lumping 1,000 half-truths in one post…if you have a question about liturgical colors, start a thread about that, if you have a question about indulgences, start a thread about that. It makes it much easier for readers to follow along.

Again, God Bless you—

PM me if you like.

 

[exoflare]

Sanctus, I know your efforts are sincere, but people like this one really don’t want to KNOW the truth. They just want to vent out their bitterness with the world. I wouldn’t waste my time.

 

[Eden]

Kyle said, “I’ve been reading, searching for the “true” religion of the world, and while it may be Christianity, it most definitely is not Catholicism.” - You would not reach this conclusion if you read the writings of the early Church Fathers instead of James White blog sites and Jack Chick cartoons. Here is what the early Church looked like according to the early Church Fathers:

Was St. Ignatius of Antioch, auditor to the apostles, describing Catholicism or Protestantism in his letters?

Contents of the letters It is scarcely possible to exaggerate the importance of the testimony which the Ignatian letters offer to the dogmatic character of Apostolic Christianity. The martyred Bishop of Antioch constitutes a most important link between the Apostles and the Fathers of the early Church. Receiving from the Apostles themselves, whose auditor he was, not only the substance of revelation, but also their own inspired interpretation of it; dwelling, as it were, at the very fountain-head of Gospel truth, his testimony must necessarily carry with it the greatest weight and demand the most serious consideration. Cardinal Newman did not exaggerate the matter when he said (“The Theology of the Seven Epistles of St. Ignatius”, in “Historical Sketches”, I, London, 1890) that “the whole system of Catholic doctrine may be discovered, at least in outline, not to say in parts filled up, in the course of his seven epistles”. Among the many Catholic doctrines to be found in the letters are the following: the Church was Divinely established as a visible society, the salvation of souls is its end, and those who separate themselves from it cut themselves off from God(Philad., c. iii); the hierarchy of the Church was instituted by Christ (lntrod. to Philad.; Ephes., c. vi); the threefold character of the hierarchy (Magn., c. vi); the order of the episcopacy superior by Divine authority to that of the priesthood (Magn., c. vi, c. xiii; Smyrn., c. viii;. Trall., .c. iii);the unity of the Church (Trall., c. vi;Philad., c. iii; Magn., c. xiii);the holiness of the Church (Smyrn., Ephes., Magn., Trall., and Rom.); the catholicity of the Church (Smyrn., c. viii); the infallibility of the Church(Philad., c. iii; Ephes., cc. xvi, xvii); the doctrine of the Eucharist (Smyrn., c. viii), which word we find for the first time applied to the Blessed Sacrament, just as in Smyrn., viii, we meet for the first time the phrase “Catholic Church”, used to designate all Christians; the Incarnation (Ephes., c. xviii); the supernatural virtue of virginity, already much esteemed and made the subject of a vow (Polyc., c. v); the religious character of matrimony (Polyc., c. v); the value of united prayer (Ephes., c. xiii); **the primacy of the See of Rome **(Rom., introd.). He, moreover, denounces in principle the Protestant doctrine of private judgment in matters’ of religion (Philad. c. iii), The heresy against which he chiefly inveighs is Docetism. Neither do the Judaizing heresies escape his vigorous condemnation.

Hmmm… the early Church sure sounds Catholic to me.

 

[jimmy]

Just last week you were questioning whether any of Christianity was true due to a couple statements you found on the internet that called it pagan, now you know all the answers about Catholicism? I think you need to do a little more reading and not be so easily swayed.

You should start off with some questions. Could this be wrong? Could this be true? Rather than seeing one verse and then all of a sudden being anti-Catholic. It takes more than 1 week to learn about Catholicism and its history.

I would suggest starting with reading the Bible and the Catechism and then later maybe the Early Church Fathers if you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches. I would also suggest you think about this stuff for a while as well.

 

[Sanctus]

exoflare:

Sanctus, I know your efforts are sincere, but people like this one really don’t want to KNOW the truth. They just want to vent out their bitterness with the world. I wouldn’t waste my time.

I know it may not seem that way, unfortunantly…to not refute these ridiculous claims easily could possibly lead some wayward reader to think there was a grain of truth in them…therefore I usually take the approach to give a heartfelt and honest answer even if I suspect otherwise and let the original poster do the Christian thing and either respond in kind or he is further “ratted” out.

 

[exoflare]

Sanctus:

I know it may not seem that way, unfortunantly…to not refute these ridiculous claims easily could possibly lead some wayward reader to think there was a grain of truth in them…therefore I usually take the approach to give a heartfelt and honest answer even if I suspect otherwise and let the original poster do the Christian thing and either respond in kind or he is further “ratted” out.

True. That is a good point.

 

[Sanctus]

I appoligize for being “wordy” in my three posts…but I felt the need to go through the points one by one. Would have been easier if that’s how they were asked…though I’ve seen the “pile-on” method before. Anyway I hope someone takes something out of what I wrote…I usually don’t like links, but some of the objections were just so absolutly trivial.

 

[exoflare]

Sanctus:

I appoligize for being “wordy” in my three posts…but I felt the need to go through the points one by one. Would have been easier if that’s how they were asked…though I’ve seen the “pile-on” method before. Anyway I hope someone takes something out of what I wrote…I usually don’t like links, but some of the objections were just so absolutly trivial.

Yeah, the pile-on method is a common tactic of a lot of A/C propaganda robots… They will try to force you off-topic by making you defend multiple allegations, and then later accuse YOU of not answering the original question. Funny what people will resort to when telling the truth isn’t an option.

 

[Eden]

kyle8921:

Here is what I have managed to collect and understand recently.

How can you defend the Inquisition? Would Christ have allowed such a thing?

“Managed to collect”? Where in the world are you doing your “collecting”?

Interesting that you should mention the Inquisition. It’s not what you’d expect. You can add this to your collection:

nationalreview.com/comment/madden200406181026.asp

The Inquisition was not born out of desire to crush diversity or oppress people; it was rather an attempt to stop unjust executions. Yes, you read that correctly. Heresy was a crime against the state. Roman law in the Code of Justinian made it a capital offense. Rulers, whose authority was believed to come from God, had no patience for heretics. Neither did common people, who saw them as dangerous outsiders who would bring down divine wrath. When someone was accused of heresy in the early Middle Ages, they were brought to the local lord for judgment, just as if they had stolen a pig or damaged shrubbery (really, it was a serious crime in England). Yet in contrast to those crimes, it was not so easy to discern whether the accused was really a heretic. For starters, one needed some basic theological training — something most medieval lords sorely lacked. **The result is that uncounted thousands across Europe were executed by secular authorities without fair trials or a competent assessment of the validity of the charge. **

The Catholic Church’s response to this problem was the Inquisition, first instituted by Pope Lucius III in 1184. It was born out of a need to provide fair trials for accused heretics using laws of evidence and presided over by knowledgeable judges. From the perspective of secular authorities, heretics were traitors to God and the king and therefore deserved death. From the perspective of the Church, however, heretics were lost sheep who had strayed from the flock. As shepherds, the pope and bishops had a duty to bring them back into the fold, just as the Good Shepherd had commanded them. So, while medieval secular leaders were trying to safeguard their kingdoms, the Church was trying to save souls. The Inquisition provided a means for heretics to escape death and return to the community.

As this new report confirms, most people accused of heresy by the Inquisition were either acquitted or their sentences suspended. Those found guilty of grave error were allowed to confess their sin, do penance, and be restored to the Body of Christ. The underlying assumption of the Inquisition was that, like lost sheep, heretics had simply strayed. If, however, an inquisitor determined that a particular sheep had purposely left the flock, there was nothing more that could be done. Unrepentant or obstinate heretics were excommunicated and given over to secular authorities. Despite popular myth, the Inquisition did not burn heretics. It was the secular authorities that held heresy to be a capital offense, not the Church. The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition saved uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by secular lords or mob rule.

Yes, you read that correctly. It was secular authorities who burned heretics not the Church. Sorry. Strike one for anti-Catholics.

 

[Sanctus]

kyle8921:

Please list and cite your sources as most of us have cited ours. Please do not “hit-and-run”

You had to know this would be a contraversial topic, why didn’t you stick around for the answer?

 

[exoflare]

kyle8921:

I’ve been reading, searching for the “true” religion of the world, and while it may be Christianity, it most definitely is not Catholicism.

But let me say something first… I know that no matter what I say, you will have something to defend your religion, but please, just consider it, and think, what would Jesus do?

This little defensive tactic reminds me of the part in the Quran where it is mentioned that people will basically accuse Mohammad of passing warmed-over Bible verses as prophecy. By “predicting” a self-fulfilling prophecy, they hope to nullify those claims later.

 

[axolotl]

Let’s not be too uncharitable to poor Kyle. He’s a very impressionable teenager. He even thought Landover Baptist seriously. He had many fundamentalist friends, and some doubt has been planted–well taken root. Ridiculing him probably won’t help.

 

[Eden]

kyle8921:

Popes claim to be Christ on Earth, the vicars of God. Popes in the past, in the "Dark Ages (when the Church was at the height of its power… such an interesting title for what should be Christ’s most influential times on Earth) have claimed that the whole world and all of existence is theirs, and anyone who denies it or doesn’t pay the Church taxes can be excommunicated and thrown into torture chambers.

Regarding the title “Vicar of Christ”, the word in Latin “Vicarius Christi” which means “vicarious Christ”. Vicarious in English means:

Vicarious \Vica"rious, a. [L. vicarius, from vicis change,
alternation, turn, the position, place, or office of one
person as assumed by another; akin to Gr. ? to yield, give
way] 1. Of or pertaining to a vicar, substitute, or deputy;
deputed; delegated; as, vicarious power or authority.

Thus Vicar of Christ means that the Pope is Christ’s representative here on earth while Christ is not physically present here as a man with us - he has “vicarious authority”. Do you not understand the Christ gave Peter this power and intended for him to have successors until the Second Coming?

 

[Sanctus]

axolotl:

Let’s not be too uncharitable to poor Kyle. He’s a very impressionable teenager. He even thought Landover Baptist seriously. He had many fundamentalist friends, and some doubt has been planted–well taken root. Ridiculing him probably won’t help.

Everyone should be treated with charity…charity is paramount! But Kyle should stick around, tell us what he thinks…what he’s learned, what he’s reading etc.

 

[elizabeth4truth]

Hi Kyle,

You seem coragous indeed!

After watching a recent Mystery’s of the Bible, I’ve been contemplating that Rome is the New Jerusalem, talked about in the book of Revalations.

Hope you find all the answers to your passionate questions, in God’s will and time.

Peace to you,
Elizabeth

 

[adventistnomore]

Kyle,

Greetings.

I read your post with mixed emotions (as you might expect). Please don’t let anyone’s reactions on this post turn you off to the Catholic faith anymore than you already are. I understand your disgust, your passion, and your doubts.

Kyle, your post… while an avenue for venting you frustrations, exposed something… pride. I know, I’ve been guilty of the same… and passions flare when belief is on the line. However, I sensed hate, anger, disgust…not the pity, sympathy, compassion, and profound sadness Christ would have in his heart for his Church, if it ever fell.

Christ founded one Church, that much is clear… there weren’t hundreds of churches, only one… centuries passed… as a Protestant i was taught that because of the errors and abuses that infiltrated that Church, we could no longer be identified with it. And so, new churches were created. Have you ever thought what a tragedy that would be though? To think that the Church Christ founded must be ultimately abandoned. Can you feel the pain in Christ’s heart. Please… an article filled with denunciations of the Catholic faith isn’t apprpriate on a forum dedicated to meaningful dialogue. If you have questions or challenges, present them in the spirit and compassion of Christ. Your post showed, that at least for a few minutes, you were far from Christ, however justified you might have felt.

That being said…

Are you looking for a Church with perfect people? with a perfect history? You know, the first Church had twelve men. One betrayed his Master for money, one denied him altogether, nine others ran for their lives when persecution came. Greedy traitors, liars, cowards… what a group. The reason why you can list off so many sins sins committed by those within the Catholic Church is because we have had every scoundrel and Judas Iscariot in our Church. We’ve had 20 centuries to find them all. :*-(

But you know what… I am one of those sinners you mentioned. I claim to follow Christ, I promised to serve him, and yet I’ve fallen to lust and pornography. What!? There’s someone who in his heart is an adulterer, the chief of sinners. walking up the the altar, recieving the body and blood of the Lord? Yes, millions of times over. I’ve indulged in fantasies… And I dare consider myself a Christian? Do I need to kill people in torture chambers when my heart’s hatred wishes i could? You may search far and wide for a perfect church – while you are at it, find me the perfect human being, excluding our Master.

All your questions have answers. Sadly, you framed them as denunciatory conclusions, not questions. I’d be willing to speak with you more, and handle your concerns. I anyone here thinks you are anti-Catholic… I WAS A DEDICATED, GLEEFUL, PASSIONATE ANTI-CATHOLIC if there ever was one. I might have an insight or two.

And I’m sorry if you think there is no difference between veneration and worship in my veneration of the saints… tell this former Protestant that you know more about himself and his worship of God than he does – someone who Biblically was forced to renounce the same positon you now hold. If you disagree, let’s talk.

But please, talk… don’t yell… talk. And even if you leave the Catholic Church, don;t leave Christ, by your convictions or your words and actions. Stay close to Him, be open to Him, and perhaps you will be surprised someday.

I truly love you my brother… and I understand.

 

[Eden]

kyle8921:

In the "Dark Ages (when the Church was at the height of its power… such an interesting title for what should be Christ’s most influential times on Earth) have claimed that the whole world and all of existence is theirs, and anyone who denies it or doesn’t pay the Church taxes can be excommunicated and thrown into torture chambers.

I think you are misunderstanding the term “Dark Ages”. It was first used by Petrarch to describe a culture that was devoid of Classical culture (ancient Greek and Roman art, music and scholarship). It has also been used to describe the Middle Ages as being “a mystery” or “wrapped in obscurity”. The focus was entirely on Christianity and secularists such as Petrarch were dismayed:
Why did Petrarch call it an age of darkness? Petrarch spent much of his time traveling through Europe rediscovering and republishing the classic Latin and Greek texts. He wanted to restore the classical Latin language, art and culture to the original Roman ways, because any changes that had happened since the fall of Rome in 410, as humanists believed, were not worth studying.** Humanists saw the 900-year period as a time of stagnation. They saw history not in the religious terms of St. Augustine, but in cultural (or secular) terms, through the progressive developments of Classical ideals, literature and art. **

encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Dark_Ages

 

[Kyenta]

No other Religion among the thousands out there do** more **for humanity than the Catholic Church. The outreach extends virtually to every country especially the poorest and most undeveloped nations.

The blood of our Catholic martyrs extends world wide as the persecutions of Catholics began virtually since the time of Christ. Read about the history of the Church and you will be astounded by the incredible acts of love for their fellow man by Catholic Priests, religious and faithful.

The Church is powerful in it’s beliefs because this is the faith began by Jesus Christ himself. Following Christ without compromise.
Here is just a small list of the numerous Catholic Charitible organizations that exist to help those in need. Be sure, that if you needed help, the Catholic Church will come through.

Covenant House: Shelters and rehabilitates teenage runaways and the homeless in New York.

Seton Institute: Helping provide healthcare to the poor in countries worldwide.

**Mercy Home for Boys and Girls
**
Girls and Boys Town

Food For The Poor: raises funds and provides direct relief to the poor in Latin America and the Caribbean.

Life Legal Defense Foundation: provideds legal assistance on behalf of unborn children and their advocates.

Salesian: rehabilitates and trains youth worldwide.

**St. Vincent de Paul Society: ** an international charitible organization which provides help to the needy, physically impaired, imprisoned, sick and poor.

Childrens International: operates a hospital for crippled children in Israel and provides food, clothing, educational supplies and special care for children worldwide.

**Catholic Medical Mission Board: ** sends medicines, bandages, surgical instruments and other medical supplies to hospitals and clinics overseas.

Catholic Relief Services: Founded by the U.S. Catholic Bishops to help the poor and disadvantaged outside U.S.

The Catholic Church welcomes all. Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful.

 

[Eden]

kyle8921:

To even TRY to defend Catholics’ WORSHIP of Mary and Saints is a complete joke. Venerate means the same thing as worship

Praying to the Saints

The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century

            **In Heaven and On Earth**

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

deoomnisgloria.com/mt/archives/000557.html

​

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Kyle I took a look at your past posts:nope: Are you being sincere?Are you on a search for truth or a quest for reaction?I would appreciate your response.