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surfinpure
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Great reference, Eden! These miracles always leave me speechless.
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Church_Militant
Guest
The Pope ad the bishops (together) are infallible when they teach on matters fo faith and morals. You have confused infallible teaching with impeccability and no one is impeccable. The fact is that you have been listening to non-Catholics about Catholicism and not listening to Catholics that know what the heck they are talking about. That’s why you’re all messed up about all this. If you wanna buy into all that rhetoric and bunk, that’s certainly up to you (hey…it’s your soul Cochise), but they are gonna tell you that they are teaching the truth from the Bible and then hand you their interpretations of whatever they talk about. Who says they’re right?
AND does what they are telling you line up with what the early church wrote about what they believed and practiced? I checked it out Kyle… and the straight answer is NO!And the n-cs are not drunk with the blood of Catholic martyrs? BUNK! What is this alleged fornication with the kings of the earth? Someone’s been shovelling you a load of hooey about some sort of great apostasy they say occurred under Constantine and supposedly the church went back to paganism. This is TOTAL BUNK because I checked it out and aside from a few bigoted and biased sources who make allegations that they cannot support from history there is no such animal. NONE! IN fact… I found that only 48 years after Constantines reign a Roman emperor called Julian the Apostate instituted a heavy persecution of the Catholic Church because it was NOT pagan and he wanted it to be. That whole thing is dealt with on this thread right here…go read it. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=36068
Pax tecum,
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Eden
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I read this article on EWTN and it made me think of Kyle:
ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=57148
*31-May-2005 – Catholic News Agency *ewtn.com/images/printer.gif
POPE SAYS YOUNG PEOPLE ‘MUST FEEL LOVED BY THE CHURCH’
Vatican City, May. 31, 2005 (CNA) - As he prepares to join young people in Cologne for World Youth Day this summer, Pope Benedict XVI told Italian bishops yesterday that they, especially priests and bishops, must assure the young that they are loved by the Church.
The Pope told the bishops that because young people run the risk of being “tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine…they need to be helped to grow and mature in the faith: this is the first service they must receive from the Church, especially from us as bishops and from our priests.”
“Many of them,” the Holy Father continued, “are not able to understand and accept all the Church’s teaching immediately, but precisely for this reason it is important to reawaken within them the intention to believe with the Church, the belief that this Church, animated and guided by the Spirit, is the true subject of the faith.”
Pope Benedict suggested that if the Church were to adequately convey the faith to young people, that they “must feel loved by the Church, in particular by us, bishops and priests.”
He said that in this way, "they will experience in the Church the friendship and love the Lord holds for them, they will understand that in Christ truth coincides with love, and in their turn they will learn to love the Lord, and to have faith in His body which is the Church.”
“This is the central point”, he concluded, “of the great challenge of transmitting the faith to the young generations."
ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=57148
*31-May-2005 – Catholic News Agency *ewtn.com/images/printer.gif
POPE SAYS YOUNG PEOPLE ‘MUST FEEL LOVED BY THE CHURCH’
Vatican City, May. 31, 2005 (CNA) - As he prepares to join young people in Cologne for World Youth Day this summer, Pope Benedict XVI told Italian bishops yesterday that they, especially priests and bishops, must assure the young that they are loved by the Church.
The Pope told the bishops that because young people run the risk of being “tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine…they need to be helped to grow and mature in the faith: this is the first service they must receive from the Church, especially from us as bishops and from our priests.”
“Many of them,” the Holy Father continued, “are not able to understand and accept all the Church’s teaching immediately, but precisely for this reason it is important to reawaken within them the intention to believe with the Church, the belief that this Church, animated and guided by the Spirit, is the true subject of the faith.”
Pope Benedict suggested that if the Church were to adequately convey the faith to young people, that they “must feel loved by the Church, in particular by us, bishops and priests.”
He said that in this way, "they will experience in the Church the friendship and love the Lord holds for them, they will understand that in Christ truth coincides with love, and in their turn they will learn to love the Lord, and to have faith in His body which is the Church.”
“This is the central point”, he concluded, “of the great challenge of transmitting the faith to the young generations."
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Church_Militant
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Really Kyle? Ever hear of the miracle of Lanciano? Read about it here.
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
Scientifically impossible, yet there to this day and scientifically verified. Oh ye of little faith…
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CarrieMG
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Kyle,
I am going to suggest your reading Rome Sweet Home by Scott and Kimberly Hahn, Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David Currie, and Surprised By Truth edited by Patrick Madrid. They are all stories of converts - most who were anti-Catholics who once believed many of the things you posted and they tell the stories of how they came to believe in the CAtholic Church. It sounds as though when you did your study last week you got many anti-Catholic perspectives. Educate yourself with the opposite before you make a decision to leave the Church. Adventistnomore offered to talk with you privately. Perhaps doing so would help as adventists tend to be the ones who push these non-truths about the Catholic Church even more than some others.
There are so many things that seem to be troubling you which just are not true. You do not have to ever pray the Rosary to be Catholic. Some people find meditating on the events in Christ’s life while saying simple prayers to keep them focused is something that draws them closer to Jesus. If it does not do so for you, you are not required to do it. The Church simply says there is nothing wrong with doing so.
If you want to talk over these issues one at a time, I am sure you can get better answers then in posting them all at once.
I read an article in This Rock May/June issue which reminded me of you and your last post about the article you read last week which caused you so much distress. It is called Did the CAthoic Church have its origins in Paganism? By Ralph Woodrow (who happens to be a protestant pastor) His conclusion was no. I don’t know if there is someway you caould get a copy of the article since This Rock is a Catholic Answers publication.
Keep searching, please.
In Christ, Carrie
I am going to suggest your reading Rome Sweet Home by Scott and Kimberly Hahn, Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David Currie, and Surprised By Truth edited by Patrick Madrid. They are all stories of converts - most who were anti-Catholics who once believed many of the things you posted and they tell the stories of how they came to believe in the CAtholic Church. It sounds as though when you did your study last week you got many anti-Catholic perspectives. Educate yourself with the opposite before you make a decision to leave the Church. Adventistnomore offered to talk with you privately. Perhaps doing so would help as adventists tend to be the ones who push these non-truths about the Catholic Church even more than some others.
There are so many things that seem to be troubling you which just are not true. You do not have to ever pray the Rosary to be Catholic. Some people find meditating on the events in Christ’s life while saying simple prayers to keep them focused is something that draws them closer to Jesus. If it does not do so for you, you are not required to do it. The Church simply says there is nothing wrong with doing so.
If you want to talk over these issues one at a time, I am sure you can get better answers then in posting them all at once.
I read an article in This Rock May/June issue which reminded me of you and your last post about the article you read last week which caused you so much distress. It is called Did the CAthoic Church have its origins in Paganism? By Ralph Woodrow (who happens to be a protestant pastor) His conclusion was no. I don’t know if there is someway you caould get a copy of the article since This Rock is a Catholic Answers publication.
Keep searching, please.
In Christ, Carrie
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DavidFilmer
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Please don’t feed the trolls, people.
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Anima_Christi
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He did.
(St. John 6:53-55, 60, 61, 66-69)
Do you think Jesus would have let his own disciples fall away, just for misunderstanding a metaphor? I don’t think so. Jesus meant what he said, and he didn’t back down. Are you going to be like the disciples that said, “This is a hard saying, who can accept it?” or will you say to Jesus, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
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epr1993
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Kyle, if you are 16 and are asking these kinds of questions then good for you. St Augustine looked. So have many of the rest of us. If you SERIOUSLY want answers then you will find them here but you have to be open what you find. Pray for me and I’ll pray for you too.
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Sanctus
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You still seem to really not understand Catholicism. Maybe reading comprehension of complex theological ideas is not your forte’. You say you are Catholic, find a good Priest for a spiritual director and bring your concers up to him.
You thinking Catholics worship Mary or not does not change the fact that we do not worship the Saints. Read up on the Communion of Saints. It’s hard to understand many times and involves many “tough” theological questions but in the end it makes complete sense. God stands out of time, through God’s grace the Saints can intercede for us, it is just like someone on Earth praying for our intentions but the Saints are in a unique position to intercede for our intentions because of their special union with Christ.
Ok, you have a big hang-up on the Saints, I’ve got it. You must start at the basics. First, the Blessed Virgin Mary always leads us to Jesus. To love her as your mother is to love her Son. It is important for all of us to understand the amazing role she plays in salvation history and how she continues to intercede for us, her children. Get this-Get the communion of saints and it all falls into place.
Continued…
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Sanctus
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Here’s a nice list from Dave Sloan…but the bigger question is why are you approaching this from flawed theology. No everything has to be “in the Bible” to be a Truth. Actually, you’ll look through the Bible and never find it to claim that it contains ALL of the truths of Christianity, actually, quite the opposite, we are told to rely on the Sacred Tradition handed down to us. If we were always to only rely on what is in the Bible then are we to believe that either, there was no Church until the Bible was codified? (this is historically untrue) or that Jesus was half-way done with ascending and then came back down and gave a bunch of Bibles to everyone around (not in the Bible, so that would defeat the main point of everything being “in” the Bible)
Here’s Dave Sloan’s Biblical Basis for the Catholic Church
It seems there’s just so much you don’t understand. I was like you about 2 years ago; subject to doubt the faith everytime I saw something odd. I’ve done a TON of reading, talking to theologins, and praying…I still don’t understand everything—and I’ve come to the conclusion that I won’t until, God willing, I go through the Pearly Gates…it’s not easy to understand because behind understanding theology and religion we’re trying to understand God…sometimes it’s easy because He will do something or say something or start something…like the Church…sometimes it’s hard and we must rely on faith.
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Sanctus
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No, it’s not necessary. Catholics are free to pray to the Saints as much or as little as they wish. However, to truly understand the mysteries of the Rosary is to understand that it is a beautiful meditation…actually on the life of Christ.
I suppose you could, there are internet rosaries, but there’s nothing wrong with having a rosary that’s “pretty” the problem comes in when you have a pretty rosary just to have a pretty rosary and not to say the beautiful prayers that are attached to it.
Unfortunantly, you’ll have to convince almost all credible theologins of the past 2000 years and some of the most important philosophers in the western world from the past two millenia that they are crazy for this to be true. Oh, and also, the Eastern Orthodox–you’ll have to convince them that they’re “stupid” first. Furthermore, saying this is a blatent slap in the face for Catholics. Denying the Real Presence is A.) Denying that with God all things are possible B.) Directly in conflict with both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition and C.) Not in keeping with the message of the New Testament…Jesus was the Pascal Lamb…in the old testament the Jews slaughtered lambs for the attonment of sin and ate it at Passover…in the New Testament Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world and we participate in his eternal life by partaking of the Lamb in consuming the actual Body and Blood of Christ.
Yes! He did speak in metaphors all the time…however, with the passage on the Eucharist he repeats it three times, watches followers walk away and then turns to his twelve Apostles—his friends and without a blink asks them if they are going to leave too. This was no “metaphor” read through the Gospel of John and read all the early Church Fathers…nobody denied the Real Presence.
For salvation we seek to fufill all of Jesus’ commands to the Church and trust in His Infinante Mercy
Here is what we call a false dichotomy. Again you misunderstand what the Church teaches. We “go” to a priest for absolution because Jesus left that power to the Church, the power to bind and loose and to forgive sin. By accepting the authority Jesus left in the Church you are seeking absolution that Jesus gives through His legitimate authority on Earth…the guardian of Truth…His Church.
This is the prayer that the Priest says in confession…really ponder the words:
Historically speaking, yes. No Mary, No Jesus; Know Mary, Know Jesus. It is through Mary’s fiat, her yes, her total surrender to God that we are able to experience Jesus as we know him. What if she said no? God would have had another route of salvation planned but it was through her being full of grace, her free will, and the astounding work of the Holy Spirit that God dwelt among us.
Nothing. Though be prepared to suffer along the way.
Maybe, maybe not. Purgatory, however, is not the “Vengeful God” rather Purgatory is a sign of an infinantly merciful God. We know that nothing unclean will enter His Kingdom, Purgatory is a time/place/state of purgation where those who died in a state of Grace are detached from any attachment of sin. If there was no purgatory then the outlook of getting to heaven would be much harder and we’d be called to live even more difficult and suffering-filled lives.
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Sanctus
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What about Him, He is King!
Perfect, yes…use that same dictionary you used to look up the various forms of worship and look up Perfect and then look up infallible—they are not the same. The Pope is not perfect—he is human—he is sinful—he is a man who is the Vicar of Christ.
Ok, the whole thing is you either have to accept that the Vatican City is not in Rome, thereby excluding it from the “seven hill” rule or you have to accept that Rome has 8 hills…excluding the entire city from the seven hill rule. Does the Vatican have power over the “kings” of the Earth. How many monarchies are there anyway? How many are headed by a king? Could this possibly be symbolism? Hmm….Jeruslem comes to mind. Remember also that the Church has been persuceted in Rome so don’t connect the city with the Church.
Truth is absolute, don’t sell yourself short.
This does not conflict with Catholic Doctrine, after Transubstantiation, the bread and wine cease to be bread and wine and there is an ontological change…they literally become the Blood of Christ but maintain the accidentals of bread and wine. This is an imperfect analogy but think about a pile of clay—I can mold it into a bowl and if I ask you what it is you will say it’s a bowl—but if you put it under a microscope—it’s just Clay.
Yes, the Bible is full of symbols and metaphors, though you seem to be at a loss for that fact when you are arguing that the Catholic Church is “wrong.” Furthermore, yes, Jesus said we do eat His Flesh and Drink His Blood—those that do will have Everlasting Life.
Again, I encourage you to get a good Priest as a Spiritual Advisor! PM me if you have any questions. Oh, and ask specific questions…start a thread on each of your questions/topics…don’t lump a bunch of accusations/questions into one post it makes the thread not flow well, harder to answer, and harder to read.
I’ll pray for you, please promise to do the same. Please consider my reccomendations, read up on the Catholic Answers website, read the great Saints, and again–get a Priest as a Spiritual Advisor.
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mercygate
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Does it say “worship” Mary? No.
Go to CA home page . . .
and the problem with that is . . .?
If you’re a Catholic, and you do not understand that Sacramental Confession is a great gift, given to the Church by Christ himself on the very day of his Resurrection (Jn 20:23), and you have not experienced the POWER of grace and forgiveness in this sacrament, then I tell you with great urgency to go right this minute to your priest, beg him to hear your confession, and to help you make a good, integral, confession . . .
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RyanL
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Kyle,
My wife rightly chastised me for being a schmuck earlier in this thread. Please forgive me. I have prayed that God may grant me a humble heart, but my own pride got in the way. I humbly apologize, and am at your service to explain any specific questions you have. Again, please forgive my rude tone - I should have acted differently.
Yours in Christ crucified,
RyanL
My wife rightly chastised me for being a schmuck earlier in this thread. Please forgive me. I have prayed that God may grant me a humble heart, but my own pride got in the way. I humbly apologize, and am at your service to explain any specific questions you have. Again, please forgive my rude tone - I should have acted differently.
Yours in Christ crucified,
RyanL
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elizabeth4truth
Guest
Dear Kyle,
I’m sorry but I need to disagree with you on this. There have been many Eucharistic miracles. One at Laciano, Italy where the Host is bleeding. The blood coming from it was tested and typed AB Positive. The bread was determined to be human flesh.
I praise and thank God the one He allowed me to kneel one foot from, in Sienna, Italy. He embedded, in my heart, the Truth of His real presence in the Eucharist, for me.
Please try to understand that God has all the Truth. Some things He allows us to understand, other times He withholds. It’s in His deciding, not ours. When people speak against His Church, they speak against Him. But, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Also, please do not judge His Church by the actions of men. Trust Him at His Word. His Word told us Peter would be the successor of His Church. The Popes ability to make infallible faith and moral decisions is a singular grace bestowed upon him by The Holy Spirit, not himself. I do not trust the pope anymore than I would trust any other man or woman with my salvation BUT, I do trust God working through the pope and obey His desire that I place my trust in Him, by His working through him. I love and honor the pope because of the sacrifices he makes to be God’s obedient one.
As long as we remain open to discovering the whole truth, God will honor our desire. If our desire is to bring down another’s faith walk, I’m afraid we are going to stumble.
Peace,
Elizabeth
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Wildgraywolf
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Obviously your “searching” hasn’t led you to use any Catholic sources and your desire for “truth” can’t see beyond your prejudice and preconceptions.
If you wanted to know about neurology would you ask a proctologist? Would you discount anything the neurologist would say because you believe the proctologist knows better?
My grand father had a saying; “The further you get from the horses mouth the closer you get to his a**”, and at point there is only one possible outcome.:yup:
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jimmy
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May I use that quote? That is a great quote.
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surfinpure
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HA! Sounds like your grandpa might’ve been a Texan. LOLBut on a serious note, it doesn’t look like Kyle will be posting for a while. I’m gonna unsubscribe now.
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Sarah_Jane
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surf(name removed by moderator)ure:
Why?
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JCaudle
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Dear Kyle,
I am 18 right now, and about a year ago, I was asking the same questions you are asking. My best advice is to just stick with Catholicism. I did, even through my doubt, and, eventually, through the grace of God, I have come to see the truth of Catholicism. I read several books on my journey. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions. I will keep you in my prayers.
In Him,
Joey
I am 18 right now, and about a year ago, I was asking the same questions you are asking. My best advice is to just stick with Catholicism. I did, even through my doubt, and, eventually, through the grace of God, I have come to see the truth of Catholicism. I read several books on my journey. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions. I will keep you in my prayers.
In Him,
Joey
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