The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament

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Originally Posted by 1voice
If you take the position that what you believe is what God said … then you would naturally conclude that any other position is a false god.

We are discussing spiritual truth.
God, in the Book of Amos, uses a plumb line to illustrate God’s standard of truth. Amos is shown, by God, that he is about to execute his judgement on Israel because they have consistently refused to line up with the standard that God expected … and Israel has worshipped false gods on the high places and in the sanctuaries …

Your position is that all spiritual truth is contained in the teachings of the Catholic Church. To you, those teachings are the plumb line (the standard by which all spiritual beliefs are measured)
Therefore… any belief or teaching that does not agree with Catholic doctrine/ teaching … is naturally false…

Therefore:
Your default position is that you are clearly right as long as you believe what the Catholic Church believes… and anyone that disagrees must be wrong or confused or deluded or misinformed.

Since … you take the position that what you believe is what God said (through the Catholic Church) …
So then … you would naturally conclude that any other position is a false god (false teaching/ idea)
No - not a false god. Don’t Christians worship Jesus as God? Jesus is not a false god, nor is God the Father or the Holy Spirit. All truly Christian churches worship the True God.

It all goes back to when Jesus founded a church - His Church. And He made Peter its first Pope. He specifically told Peter “Feed my lambs. Feed my lambs. Feed my sheep” (as my signature shows). He said “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” And He gave the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven to Peter and said that whatever would be bound on earth would be bound in heaven and whatever would be loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven.

THAT gave Jesus’ Church Truth. And the gates of hell have never prevailed against His Church and never will - because Jesus is God and cannot lie, as that would go against His very nature.

He didn’t ascend into Heaven and just leave us. There was no Bible for reference. *Sola scriptura *didn’t exist. The Holy Spirit gave the remaining Apostles such strength that they left the room they were hiding in and began spreading the Word of God (orally) and most were martyred for doing so. Even Peter, who denied Jesus three times - such a wimpy, weak person and so much like us all - became so strong and was crucified himself upside down. All Christians are members of the Church Militant and we are all given the responsibility to profess God’s Truth and to give our lives in martyrdom if necessary.

Jesus is still here with us, of course, but He’s not showing Himself as God-Incarnate. He left us with an authority to help us. Peter did feed Jesus’ sheep - as the Pope. And every Pope since then has done the same along with the rest of the bishops who are traced back through Apostolic Succession.

All spiritual truth is NOT contained within the Catholic Church. If it were, she would be teaching what happens to babies who die before birth or who are born but die before being baptised. What she teaches is that she does not know. One day she may know and then she will teach what happens. The Magisterium doesn’t make things up to fill in the blanks even though it would be so easy to say “Well, of course unborn children and born children who are not baptized go to Heaven!” It makes sense that they would. But she doesn’t know. The Bible doesn’t cover this issue, either. So how do we know what happens? Those who are *sola scriptura *don’t know and those who are Catholic don’t know. But because God left us with an authority (the Church) we may be given that truth someday and then the Church will teach that truth. Not everything is in the Bible and new words and teachings don’t somehow miraculously appear in every copy of the Bible (although God could certainly make that happen). We NEED an authority that continues to try to further understand truth. I asked you about in-vitro fertilization. You haven’t answered yet. I asked that question because the Bible is silent on this issue. It wasn’t even an issue when the Bible was penned and put together. But it’s most certainly an issue now. So what do we do? Is in-vitro fertilization morally licit? Who is to tell us? I haven’t seen God appear as Jack Chick shows Him, a huge being but sans a face, who sits on a throne and makes announcements (usually that a person who has tried his best to live a good life but has been deceived by the Catholic Church’s lies is damned to hell - such a nice God!). God’s authority is the Catholic Church. SHE has announced that in-vitro fertilization is wrong. As she is God’s authority on earth we can be sure that that teaching is true, just as is her teaching on ABC and abortion and using fetal spinal cords for research and divorce and remarriage. She has remained true to God’s Word even though people keep thinking that someday the Church will come around on ABC as long as they keep pressuring her to change her dogma and doctrine. She won’t and she can’t. Dogma and doctrine are truth and cannot change.

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I mentioned a loved dog in a previous post. Do animals go to Heaven? Again, the Church does not know and does not teach that she knows (although some people who think they know the Church’s teachings tell people that animals don’t go to Heaven and I don’t know why they think they can make such a decision on their own; I honestly think they are animal-haters and don’t like the idea of animals in Heaven whereas I can understand that God has the power to do what He wants to do in His own realm as long as it doesn’t go against His being - sorry, this is off-topic but it’s something I feel very strongly about).

My husband took his own life and I was told that he was automatically damned to hell. Uh uh. That is not what the Church teaches and being told that he was damned brought me so much despair. But that was a long time ago and I have slowly learned that I need to find out what Church teaching really is, not what people who don’t really know but would like it to be their way say it is. Unfortunately, 2,000 years of existence practically guarantees that true Church teaching will be mangled (like that game of whispering something to one person who then whispers it to another and so on and after about ten people what is being whispered is completely different than the original whisper). There is a lot of confusion and having schisms doesn’t help. We should all be in one Church and in a way we are - the Christian Church. But when it comes to teaching truth, the Catholic Church is the one who always teaches truth. Always.

What she teaches IS truth. The Catholic Church has the fullness of truth and by that I mean that what she teaches is true - all of it. Other Christian Churches have partial truth. We agree on many issues but on the issues we don’t agree on, the Catholic Church is correct in her teachings and will always be - because of the promises made by Jesus.

I’m sorry about the poor wording in this post. I’m sick today and this is pretty much the best I can do.

I wrote this to show that the Catholic Church’s teachings are true and I did that in order to try to bring the thread back on topic - we are discussing the Ark of the Covenant in the NT. The Church’s teaching on this is true. Mary is the Ark of the Covenant.
 
Could we please get back on-topic? The topic of this thread, as defined by its title and the OP is “The Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament.”

I don’t think we’re too much off-topic (with some exceptions) so we can get back to the topic easily.

Thanks, Gary, for trying to bring the thread back on-topic.

One thing I would like to say is that I am amazed that another poster and I disagreed and rather uncharitably (at least on my end) and now we are really talking. I am so happy to see that happen. So many times it just gets more and more uncharitable until the thread is closed. I don’t want to see this thread closed.

We have so much in common and I hope we are fighting on the same side - the side of Christianity. There may come a time when we are presented with the choice of martyrdom - all of us. Persecution of those who are truly Christian is rampant. We’re all members of the Church Militant. We need to stick together and fight those who want to tear Christianity down, even though they will fail.

So discussions like this one are good in that they show that at least we are communicating amongst ourselves. I hope we are doing that in an unselfish way. I hope we are all trying to clarify our understanding of truth and to share that truth as Christians, not as people who are angry at each other and fighting with each other.

That’s because we are all on the same side.
 
First, Christ healed specific individuals.
I thought the rule being defended here was … If it is not specifically mentioned in the Bible … it was not forbidden???

But anyway…

When the woman with the issue of blood was healed … Jesus had no idea who it was … or what she was healed of … til she spoke up. All he knew for sure was that he felt the power being pulled out of him by someone in the crowd.
 
Originally Posted by 1voice
One of several areas is healing. I never understood it. never experienced “miraculous” healing. Then I pray. Thats all.
All good, you realize suffering in a state of Grace, is sanctifying Grace also? Apostle Paul since we been talking about him is a perfect example, or Stephan.
Gary, I was a Catholic for 25 years … I was steeped in the Catholic doctrine of suffering just as you are… There is definitely a command to take up your cross … but not all suffering is necessary. there is sickness and infirmity that God will heal… if only a person would ask according to God’s will. I knew about suffering but was never exposed to the truth that I could be healed through faith/ revelation given byGod in the Bible. I suffered with completely debilitating migraines for 10 years … I know about suffering. I also know that God wanted me healed … I just didnt know the truth that could set me free. I read the scripture " My people perish for lack of understanding" … I was one of those … I also read the scripture … Obey my words (ie… follow my instructions) and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. I am completely free of migraines because I learned and applied the principles God gives in the Bible.
 
Could we PLEASE get back on-topic? The topic of this thread is the Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament. If one wants to discuss other issues please start a new thread. I would like to discuss the Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament and I am assuming that the person who started this thread would like to discuss that, too. I’m sorry for my part in taking this thread off-topic. A thread on healing would be wonderful but I think it is a violation of forum rules to discuss personal revelation and I think miraculous healing falls into that category (of course I could be wrong). But please, guys - let’s discuss the Ark of the Covenant in the NT. This thread is going to be closed if it remains off-topic.
 
My prayers are with you. Soldier for the Lord:thumbsup:😉
Thank you. Unlike most, you understand my user name. I am a soldier for God. But I am a very, very little (humble) soldier.

St. Michael, please pray for all in the Church Militant.
 
I thought the rule being defended here was … If it is not specifically mentioned in the Bible … it was not forbidden???
Just to be clear: I am not defending that “rule”. For that is not the Catholic position.

Who did you think was defending that? :confused:
 
Originally Posted by 1voice
One of several areas is healing. I never understood it. never experienced “miraculous” healing. Then I pray. Thats all.
Gary, I was a Catholic for 25 years … I was steeped in the Catholic doctrine of suffering just as you are… There is definitely a command to take up your cross … but not all suffering is necessary. there is sickness and infirmity that God will heal… if only a person would ask according to God’s will. I knew about suffering but was never exposed to the truth that I could be healed through faith/ revelation given byGod in the Bible. I suffered with completely debilitating migraines for 10 years … I know about suffering. I also know that God wanted me healed … I just didnt know the truth that could set me free. I read the scripture " My people perish for lack of understanding" … I was one of those … I also read the scripture … Obey my words (ie… follow my instructions) and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. I am completely free of migraines because I learned and applied the principles God gives in the Bible.
God Bless You. Serious. I truly understand God can do miraculous things.as do you then. What do you really think He did for Mary then?

Your still Catholic what do you call yourself ex-Catholic? I know you didn’t go return your membership card. 😉

Peace
 
Just to be clear: I am not defending that “rule”. For that is not the Catholic position.

Who did you think was defending that? :confused:
I was wondering the exact same thing. It certainly is NOT the Catholic position and I am not defending it. I haven’t seen any post written by a Catholic who has even come up with a rule like that! :confused:
 
God Bless You. Serious. I truly understand God can do miraculous things.as do you then. What do you really think He did for Mary then?

Your still Catholic what do you call yourself ex-Catholic? I know you didn’t go return your membership card. 😉

Peace
Of course you are free to define me in any way that you like…🙂
I define myself as a Christian.
Without going into the boring details … 22 years into my life I was a very depressed person with several extremely painful and debilitating physical ailments. I had considered suicide … but I had a gut feeling that would only make things worse. 😉

Over a period of years I was set free of every single thing that was destroying my life. Everything I learned (that set me free) I learned from the Bible. Growing up I was told that the Bible must be interpreted by trained individuals within the Church because of the danger of misinterpretation. I was discouraged from reading the Bible and only heard excerpts as a result of the readings at Mass. Through 8 years of Catholic grade school under the Felician Sisters and 4 years of CCD … I was never ever taught/told that there was a way, clearly described in the Bible, to be healed of all that I was struggling with. The medical doctors were my only option and they could not help me. When I talked to my Parish Priest or others in the Clergy … I got cookie cutter answers that did not even begin to solve my dilemma. Totally frustrated and refusing to live this way I said … God, If there is a way out of this … You show me! … and he did. Searching through the radio stations I would hear the word healing.
…In my condition … that captured my attention. Out of desperation I secretly began to listen to non Catholic ministers on the radio in my car… who spoke of how Jesus really does heal today … Just like he did when he walked the earth in Israel 2000 years ago. They taught principles straight out of the Bible. Nothing else. Just the pure word of God.
They didnt try to change anyones religion or bad mouth any one else’s religion … They just taught about God’s gift of healing … and how to receive it.I also found Eddie Dunavan’s Bible study … as i described above… where both Catholic and non Catholic people were teaching on a regular basis about healing.
It took focus on my part and resolve … but I was desperate … and over time I began to realize that God’s word in the Bible was transforming my life. I was really healthy … Really free of depression … Really free!! … and it had nothing to do with religion or religious affiliation … It was just pure Bible teaching.
And I was learning the truth that set me free, for the first time in my life … from people that were teaching straight out of the Bible! … and they didnt necessarily have to be Catholic.
I realized that …Christianity … Is available for anyone … no matter what label they happen to choose. I simply did what Jesus taught in the Bible … and it set me free!
 
I define myself as a Christian.
I realized that …Christianity … Is available for anyone … no matter what label they happen to choose. I simply did what Jesus taught in the Bible … and it set me free!
Yes, and that is fine. I’m just chit chatting. And I believe you found a point where you found peace of mind. But I know you have still have your membership card to the CC;)

However, while I believe the Bible is the Greatest Book ever written.

I also believe in the Ecumenical Councils and the Apostolic Churchs and their Tradition, in fact I see no way around the first Seven. I believe its of most importance to follow their teaching. And I most definately believe the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church. For if that had been true, than Christianity itself would be a lie.

“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

And as it was spoken so to it is.

Do you realize how many times Jesus “himself” mentioned “church” in the Bible?

True “worship” should indeed be given to God alone!

However the Sts, above all, the Mother of God, in Heaven, may helpfully be invoked. We ask the Mother of God, owing to her, a special relationship, to intercede for us and the archangels and angels to pray for us; and all the Sts may be asked for their mediation.

As I stated earlier we approach as a sign of humility and we as sinners should seek the intervention of mortal men and women who have so rightly earned their salvation. And not by Faith alone but by their fruits which are the works of their lifes.

Should one choose in their journey to live by Sola Scriptura and as the reformers of the past few hundred years in theological views. Our prayers are with you. We hold no resentment against this, they are forgiven. However, we do disagree.

And 2000 years of Christs Word as he spoke to the Apostles and established that Church confirms this thinking.

When one comes to see how God gives Grace in their own life, it becomes but a Mystery as to How God so viewed Mary.

Peace
 
Yes, and that is fine. I’m just chit chatting. And I believe you found a point where you found peace of mind. But I know you have still have your membership card to the CC;)

However, while I believe the Bible is the Greatest Book ever written.

I also believe in the Ecumenical Councils and the Apostolic Churchs and their Tradition, in fact I see no way around the first Seven. I believe its of most importance to follow their teaching. And I most definately believe the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church. For if that had been true, than Christianity itself would be a lie.

“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

And as it was spoken so to it is.

Do you realize how many times Jesus “himself” mentioned “church” in the Bible?

True “worship” should indeed be given to God alone!

However the Sts, above all, the Mother of God, in Heaven, may helpfully be invoked. We ask the Mother of God, owing to her, a special relationship, to intercede for us and the archangels and angels to pray for us; and all the Sts may be asked for their mediation.

As I stated earlier we approach as a sign of humility and we as sinners should seek the intervention of mortal men and women who have so rightly earned their salvation. And not by Faith alone but by their fruits which are the works of their lifes.

Should one choose in their journey to live by Sola Scriptura and as the reformers of the past few hundred years in theological views. Our prayers are with you. We hold no resentment against this, they are forgiven. However, we do disagree.

And 2000 years of Christs Word as he spoke to the Apostles and established that Church confirms this thinking.

When one comes to see how God gives Grace in their own life, it becomes but a Mystery as to How God so viewed Mary.

Peace
Church, for me, is where the light of truth shines. I was completely bound. I needed truth to set me free. Mega councils and all the tradition in the world are fine but they did nothing for me in my pain. People, confidently pointing me to the truth that God’s solution is in the Bible and expounding that truth … that is what I needed. Jesus said Christians are the light of the world. I needed light. I found light. That is what profoundly changed my life. It also gave me insight into true Christianity.
 
Church, for me, is where the light of truth shines. I was completely bound. I needed truth to set me free. Mega councils and all the tradition in the world are fine but they did nothing for me in my pain. People, confidently pointing me to the truth that God’s solution is in the Bible and expounding that truth … that is what I needed. Jesus said Christians are the light of the world. I needed light. I found light. That is what profoundly changed my life. It also gave me insight into true Christianity.
Hiya!

Can you answer whether your church offers instrumental music during its worship services, even if Scripture is silent on this (and by your paradigm is therefore forbidden)?
 
I’ll be checking in to see if this thread returns to the original topic. If anyone wants to discuss the Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament I would love to discuss it, too.

I won’t be posting in this thread any more as it has gone so far off-topic I don’t think it can be returned.

At this point it should be closed (IMHHHO).
 
I switch my avatars a lot. I don’t use pictures of my animals (I also have six cats) because I don’t know how. So I use photos I’ve found online. I’ll change it today to one of my favorites - a dog that is really grinning. I requested permission to use it and never received a response so I’m assuming it’s OK.
Hey he looks like a happy dog, I like him too, can’t see why anyone would have a problem with him. Six cats my goodness, I like cats tho, thinking of getting another. 🙂
 
I’ll be checking in to see if this thread returns to the original topic. If anyone wants to discuss the Ark of the Covenant in the New Testament I would love to discuss it, too.

I won’t be posting in this thread any more as it has gone so far off-topic I don’t think it can be returned.

At this point it should be closed (IMHHHO).
You see my Sister, they are quiet because upon contemplating the Light God has shown them in this World.

Then the question should+ does return to “well then what do you suppose God did for Mary?”

It becomes very difficult to wrap ones’s mind around that. And the simple truth is words could do this no justice but to place in question Gods love for Jesus from the Incarnation to the Cross. For this was the path of Mary also in Faith trust, love and suffering. Among all her other virtues.

Peace
 
1voice:
My belief is that anything that Is truly from God must line up with the truth of the Bible… Just like every law in the US must line up with the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. It is a template and a plumbline…
Your belief or God’s belief? Then show me where God teaches: Everything must be said and line up with the Bible in order to be true? Where does Jesus teach such a position?
I’m simply saying…
the Bible is already proven to be true.
According to who and WHO determined such a belief?
You can believe whatever you choose that is not in the Bible.
But if you choose to do that …
The burden of proof is with you to show that your belief is true…
Then you are applying your own principle to your own belief. Where does the Bible teach everything must be in the Bible? Burden of proof is on you to show us this biblical belief. I am still waiting for the scriptural verses.
I have seen no convincing proof of the Catholic belief that:
"our manner of praying to the Blessed Virgin has something in common with our worship of God so that the Church even addressed to her the words with which we pray to God: ‘Have mercy on sinners.’” …Leo XIII: Encyclical, Augustissimae
Or that…
“When we have recourse to Mary in prayer, we are having recourse to the Mother of Mercy, who is so well disposed towards us that, whatever the necessity that presses upon us, especially in attaining eternal life. …” Leo XIII: Encyclical, Magnae Dei Matris
My position is bases first and formost on the fact that Jesus told us who to pray to… and Leo XIII clearly says otherwise.
. and I cannot imagine praying (as LeoXIII instructs) to anyone else. Nor (based on lots of experience with answered prayer) do I find it in any way necessary.
Likewise…and still waiting for the convincing proof of your position:

Where is the proof of everything must be in the Bible and where does the bible teach it?
 
Church, for me, is where the light of truth shines. I was completely bound. I needed truth to set me free. Mega councils and all the tradition in the world are fine but they did nothing for me in my pain. People, confidently pointing me to the truth that God’s solution is in the Bible and expounding that truth … that is what I needed. Jesus said Christians are the light of the world. I needed light. I found light. That is what profoundly changed my life. It also gave me insight into true Christianity.
Perhaps instead of focusing on one’s pain and its alleviation one should focus on the pain that Jesus suffered as He was tortured and murdered. Perhaps instead of focusing on getting rid of one’s pain one should try to look upon it as a gift. Perhaps instead of focusing on ridding oneself of pain one should offer it up as partial atonement for the sins of the world. And that is because although Jesus’ Crucifixion and Resurrection opened the Gates of Heaven they did not fix the world. The lion still does not lie down with the lamb and people are murdering and sinning all over the place.

And perhaps instead of dismissing tradition as “fine” one should understand that the light one so desperately wants is hidden because one is not looking in the right place - in God’s Church - the Catholic Church - which has the full deposit of faith and that the fault lies within the seeker, not with where the light is being sought.

Perhaps instead of focusing on me, me, me, me, me…one should focus on God, God, God, God, God…and accept what God has given one, knowing that everything that comes from God is good, and understanding that Jesus loves His holy mother so much that the fire of His love would blind any human if that human were even to see a tiny ray of it and that if any human saw it in its entirety that human’s heart would literally explode.

The saints pray for us. Mother Mary prays for us. I beg her to pray for all of us. Before I mentioned the prayers of the saints and what was the response?

Crickets chirping and clocks ticking.

So here it is:

And I saw: and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the ancients, a Lamb standing as it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes: which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne. And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints: And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation. And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth.

[Revelation 5:6-10, Douay-Rheims, bolding & underlining added by this poster for emphasis]

The saints PRAY for us! And Mary is the greatest saint there is. She prays for us. I will always ask her to pray for us as she is the Ark of the Covenant.

Here it is in another part of the Bible:

Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

[James 5:16, Douay-Rheims]

The saints in Heaven are alive. Mary is the greatest saint there is. She is Queen of Heaven.

And what I am seeing in this thread is that discussing her role as Ark of the Covenant is being covered up by discussing off-topic matters. My Dad loved Mary very, very much. He had a special devotion to her that I never understood until about a month ago when I found that love for her, too. I will defend her with my life and happily so. My Dad loved Mary with a child’s faith because in a way he was innocent almost beyond belief. And I am sure he still loves her as he has passed on and I don’t know where he is but hope he is at her feet - where he belongs. If he is in Purgatory he still loves her.

I am trying to defend Mary here. This is my duty, my right, and my blessed task and I take it very seriously.

She is the Ark of the Covenant - the PERFECT ARK OF THE COVENANT.
 
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