The assumption of Mary

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I would like to repeat here what I said elsewhere in another topic (John Piper’s the Passion of the Christ). I think it adds relevant information to the discussion of Rome’s dogma of Mary’s bodily assumption.

The early Church did not hold (or know of) the bodily assumption of Mary. Epiphanius in 377 AD says that “no one” really knows what happened to Mary:
But if some think us mistaken, let them search the Scriptures. They will not find Mary’s death; they will not find whether she died or did not die; they will not find whether she was buried or was not buried … Scripture is absolutely silent [on the end of Mary] … For my own part, I do not dare to speak, but I keep my own thoughts and I practice silence … The fact is, Scripture has outstripped the human mind and left [this matter] uncertain … Did she die, we do not know … Either the holy Virgin died and was buried … Or she was killed … Or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and He can do whatever He desires; for her end no-one knows.’ (Epiphanius, Panarion, Haer. 78.10-11, 23. Cited by juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. II (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), pp. 139-40).If this was an apostolic tradition handed down and preserved, I wonder why Epiphanius and the rest of his contemporaries knew not of Mary’s bodily assumption? In fact, Roman Catholic historians admit that there is no early patristic evidence for this doctrine.

In these conditions we shall not ask patristic thought—as some theologians still do today under one form or another—to transmit to us, with respect to the Assumption, a truth received as such in the beginning and faithfully communicated to subsequent ages. Such an attitude would not fit the facts…Patristic thought has not, in this instance, played the role of a sheer instrument of transmission’ (Juniper B. Carol, O.F.M., ed., Mariology, Vol. I (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1955), p. 154).
The first recorded appearance of Mary’s assumption in history is found in an apocryphal gospel called the Transitus Beatae Mariae dated near the end of the 5th century, which Pope Gelasius, between 494 to 496 AD (along with other writtings) declared heretical. Here is where the assumption of Mary doctrine finds its roots historically.

“The first express witness in the West to a genuine assumption comes to us in an apocryphal Gospel, the Transitus Beatae Mariae of Pseudo-Melito” (Juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. l (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), p. 149).

The idea of the bodily assumption of Mary is first expressed in certain transitus–narratives of the fifth and sixth centuries. Even though these are apocryphal they bear witness to the faith of the generation in which they were written despite their legendary clothing. The first Church author to speak of the bodily ascension of Mary, in association with an apocryphal transitus B.M.V., is St. Gregory of Tours’ (Ludwig Ott, *Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma *(Rockford: Tan, 1974), pp. 209–210).

There is much more to be said about this: I recommend the following article: The Assumption of Mary by William Webster. I believe this demonstrates how badly Rome has erred in her teaching.
 
New Life,

Reread what you posted yourself. Epiphanius is not talking about the Assumption of Mary, he is talking about the death of Mary. No one knows whether Mary was assumed into heaven before death or after. That is what I believe is being refered to here. It is not referring to her assumption but how she died or if she even did die.

God Bless
 
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1962Missal:
Again, I would say that painless childbirth was a gift given to Eve and not part of her essential nature or anything to which she had a claim by right of nature. Once she sinned, that gift was lost. for her and her progeny. Now, if one of her distant daughters (Mary) was made sinless through the extraordinary intervention of God’s grace, that would not mean that the sinless daughter of Eve would be given the preternatural gift of invulnerability to suffering. As, I stated, impassibility is not part of sinless nature, per se, but a gift over and above what one may claim by right of nature. Therefore, Mary would have no claim to the preternatural gifts. If fact, we can say that it would not be fitting for her to possess impassiblity because her Son was not in such manner preserved from suffering.

Justin
Scott Hahn writes in Hail, Holy Queen:

“Yet the anguish of the woman does not necessarily stand for physical labor pains. Elsewhere in the New Testament, St Paul uses the pain of childbirth as a metaphor for spiritual suffering, for suffering in general, or for the longing of the world as it waits for the ultimate fulfillment (Gal 4:19; Rom 8:22). The anguish of the woman of the Apocalypse could represent the desire to bring Christ to the world; or it could represent the spiritual sufferings that were the price of Mary’s motherhood.”

With regard to the last statement above, we must remember Simeon’s prophecy to the Blessed Virgin Mary: “And thy own soul a sword a soul shall pierce, that, out of many hearts thoughts may be revealed.” (Luke 2:35; Douai-Rheims Bible).

Just my :twocents:
 
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MariaG:
New Life, Reread what you posted yourself. Epiphanius is not talking about the Assumption of Mary, he is talking about the death of Mary. No one knows whether Mary was assumed into heaven before death or after. That is what I believe is being refered to here. It is not referring to her assumption but how she died or if she even did die.God Bless
No, you reread it and then think about it. There was absolutely no “Apostolic Tradition” handed down regarding her death. Subsequently, the story about her being “Assumed” into heaven didn’t show up until centuries later, hence, not handed down via “Apostolic Tradition” either. The only form of so-called Apostolic Tradition connected to this story (now dogma) is through those who call themselves Apostolic “successors” (that’s another debate) who claim to have the authority to proclaim it “tradition” and worthy of being an article of faith and therfore YOU must believe it. That, my friend, is incongruent with the Christian faith. The REAL Apostles did not teach, orally or written, fabricated stories:

"For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty" (2 Pet. 1:16).
 
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RNRobert:
Scott Hahn writes in Hail, Holy Queen:

“Yet the anguish of the woman does not necessarily stand for physical labor pains. Elsewhere in the New Testament, St Paul uses the pain of childbirth as a metaphor for spiritual suffering, for suffering in general, or for the longing of the world as it waits for the ultimate fulfillment (Gal 4:19; Rom 8:22). The anguish of the woman of the Apocalypse could represent the desire to bring Christ to the world; or it could represent the spiritual sufferings that were the price of Mary’s motherhood.”
Well, Scott Hahn does violence to the Word of God by spiritualizing, for the sake of dogma, the text which CLEARLY states, “she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.”

Or when a woman goes to have a baby maybe it should first be asked, according to Scott Hahn, "are you actually crying out in labor because you’re close to giving birth, or are you just crying out because of your own inward desire to give birth" (oh the web we weave).?

Remember, in one of my previous posts I said we haven’t heard the last of this story? I’m sure there’s a lot more out there. It continues to build.
 
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1962Missal:
You throw around “extrabiblical” like it is a swear word. We’ve practically shouted from the hilltops in your presence that we don’t go by the Bible alone, and your response is, “See! I gotcha!”
My point was made in respect to hermeneutics, not forming dogma. We were discussing the interpretation of Rev. 11:19-12:6. Obviously you missed the point being made.
p.s. We are Catholics. We are members of the Catholic Church. Our faith is called Catholicism. I grow incredibly weary of the terms “Romanist” and “Romanism”. They are pejorative and are no more acceptable than “Bible-thumper” or “fundie”. They are the religious equivalent of racial slurs. Please refrain from using such language or you will be reported to the board moderators.
“Romanism” and “Romanist” are not derogatory, any more than you calling all non-Romanists “Protestants.” “Protestant” does not describe me or my faith, but you don’t hear me crying. “Catholic” does not directly describe you, you have doctrines peculiar to the teachings of Rome and its hierarchy, hence, “Romanism.” There’s nothing pejorative about the term. Actually myself, I’d rather be called a Biblicist.
 
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Kinsman:
Now Satan is using Islam as a dark force to try and destroy her, and eventually Antichrist will try to finish the job. Satan, the "great dragon," the “serpent of old,” who also "deceives the world," knows that without the nation of Israel present in the middle east, Christ can not return and bring an end to his dark career
Read too many Hal Lindsey books, have you?

Funny, back in the 1980s it was the Russian Communists that were the dark force. Then it was the Global Economy that would bring about this Tribulation. Now it’s Islam. I wonder what evil the fundies will claim brings about the Great Tribulation next? Of course this isn’t new. Back in colonnial times it was the King of England who was the Antichrist and the Tax Stamp Act was the Mark of the Beast.

Goes to show you just how reliable personal interpretation while reading the Bible goes.

Sorry for the hijack, I just found this amusing.
 
William Webster in his article in which he reveals the Gnostic origins of the story behind Mary’s alleged Assumption, ends it by stating…

"Pius XII, in his decree in 1950, declared the Assumption teaching to be a dogma revealed by God. But the basis upon which he justifies this assertion is not that of Scripture or patristic testimony but of speculative theology. He concludes that because it seems reasonable and just that God should follow a certain course of action with respect to the person of Mary, and because he has the power, that he has in fact done so. And, therefore, we must believe that he really acted in this way. Tertullian dealt with similar reasoning from certain men in his own day who sought to bolster heretical teachings with the logic that nothing was impossible with God. His words stand as a much needed rebuke to the Roman Church of our day in its misguided teachings about Mary:

*But if we choose to apply this principle so extravagantly *
*and harshly in our capricious imaginations, we may then *
*make out God to have done anything we please, on the *
*ground that it was not impossible for Him to do it. We *
*must not, however, because He is able to do all things, *
suppose that He has actually done what He has not done.
*But we must inquire whether He has really done it … It will *
*be your duty, however, to adduce your proofs out of the *
Scriptures as plainly as we do… (Alexander Roberts and
James Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids:
Eerdmans, 1951), Vol. III, Tertullian, Against Praxeas,
ch. X and XI, p. 605).

Tertullian says that we can know if God has done something by validating it from Scripture. Not to be able to do so invalidates any claim that a teaching has been revealed by God. This comes back again to the patristic principle of sola scriptura, a principle universally adhered to in the eaerly Church. But one which has been repudiated by the Roman Church and which has resulted in its embracing and promoting teachings, such as the assumption of Mary, which were never taught in the early Church and which have no Scriptural backing.

The only grounds the Roman Catholic faithful have for believing in the teaching of the assumption is that a supposedly ‘infallible’ Church declares it. But given the above facts the claim of infallibility is shown to be completely groundless. How can a Church which is supposedly infallible promote teachings which the early Church condemned as heretical? Whereas an early papal decree anathematized those who believed the teaching of an apocryphal Gospel, now papal decrees condemn those who disbelieve it. The conclusion has to be that teachings such as Mary’s assumption are the teachings and traditions of men, not the revelation of God."

“New_Life” supplies the link to this important article above, if you care (or dare) to read it.
 
Eric Goodrich:
As a Lutheran, I don’t have a problem with the teachings of the Assumption. It is a good tribute to the Mother of Christ.
As far as the Catholic Church believes, Mary was conceived without original sin and remained a virgin her entire life. Although Mary is not mentioned much in the New Testament (as I PRAY you all agree that she is not by ANY Means the central character) I have a difficult time believing that she did not have a family with her Joseph after the birth of Jesus. Would her having children as a married woman be a sin? I think that honoring her husband and her marriage would almost certainly mean that she would have had more children.

Please give me some biblical backup that she remained a virgin until her death and that Mary and Joseph had no children.
Hello, Eric There is this in the book of the prophet Ezekiel. Quoting EZ 44:1-2 Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, facing the east; but it was closed.
He said to me: This gate is to remain closed; it is not to be opened for anyone to enter by it; since the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it, it shall remain closed.

I learned about this particular verse from the 3-volume, The Truth about Mary by Robert Payesko. It is fascinating reading.
Please note that it indicates that the Lord only used the gate once.
The first mention also by reference to Mary indicating her sinlessness is found in The Old Testament that is made more clear with the verse that precedes it. The time is just after The Fall … the words are God’s:
Quoting Genesis 3:14-15~Then the LORD God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this, you shall be banned
from all the animals
and from all the wild creatures;
On your belly shall you crawl,
and dirt shall you eat
all the days of your life.
~ I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
He will strike at your head,
while you strike at his heel.”
…The enmity between the devil and the woman must be the life of perfect Grace she had, i.e., without sin and it is her offspring, Jesus, who strikes the head of the devil causing a mortal wound that is answered by ineffectual heel strikes.
 
"For ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God."Rom. 3:23.

Why does this not apply to Mary?
 
SP38 said:
"For ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God."Rom. 3:23.

Why does this not apply to Mary?

Why does it not apply to Jesus?
Because there are exceptions to the rule.
 
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Kinsman:
No, you reread it and then think about it. There was absolutely no “Apostolic Tradition” handed down regarding her death. Subsequently, the story about her being “Assumed” into heaven didn’t show up until centuries later, hence, not handed down via “Apostolic Tradition” either. The only form of so-called Apostolic Tradition connected to this story (now dogma) is through those who call themselves Apostolic “successors” (that’s another debate) who claim to have the authority to proclaim it “tradition” and worthy of being an article of faith and therfore YOU must believe it. That, my friend, is incongruent with the Christian faith. The REAL Apostles did not teach, orally or written, fabricated stories:

"For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty" (2 Pet. 1:16).
We don’t teach oral or written fabricated stories either, you are the one who rejects tradition that has been around for almost 2000 years.
 
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Kinsman:
My point was made in respect to hermeneutics, not forming dogma. We were discussing the interpretation of Rev. 11:19-12:6. Obviously you missed the point being made.

“Romanism” and “Romanist” are not derogatory, any more than you calling all non-Romanists “Protestants.” “Protestant” does not describe me or my faith, but you don’t hear me crying. “Catholic” does not directly describe you, you have doctrines peculiar to the teachings of Rome and its hierarchy, hence, “Romanism.” There’s nothing pejorative about the term. Actually myself, I’d rather be called a Biblicist.
Yes it is derogatory that is the way the statements were developed to be. It is a very offensive statement, we are Catholics. Protestant just refers to those who rejected and protested angainst the catholic church.
 
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Kinsman:
The woman cannot represent Mary. Especially not the exalted, sinless Mary of Romanism since the process of her giving birth included the curse of labor pains
Kinsman appears to follow the heresy of Dispensationalism, so has multiple errors. I’ll comment on the above quote.
  1. Kinsman purports to be familiar with Catholic Marian teaching, so is aware that the “labor pains” could be more spiritual than physical. Note that for such a loud cry, scripture doesn’t mention a midwife or any help at Christ’s birth. Indeed, Mary apparently had the strength to wrap Christ herself. Luke 2:7.
  2. I don’t read Genesis 3:16 as meaning that there was to be no pain with child birth before the fall. It seems to indicate that it would be increased due to the fall. But these points are minor.
  3. The main point is that Kinsman has misunderstood the meaning of the Assumption. It is that Mary did not suffer the corruption of the grave - i.e., the return to dust. Genesis 3:19 The Church leaves open the possibility that Mary “died”, which wouldn’t conflict with the Immaculate Conception. Neither does labor pain. It’s the corruption of the grave which Mary’s Assumption (and Immaculate Conception) avoided.
  4. The Marian doctrines aren’t those of “Romanism.” Rather, they are the teachings of the Christian Church.
 
SP38 said:
"For ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God."Rom. 3:23.

Why does this not apply to Mary?

Many Protestants reject Original Sin and claim that babies and young children have no sin. So why doesn’t it apply to children then?*

Mary did not avoid sin by her own efforts. It was due to a singular act of God’s grace. I believe that St. Paul is referring to one’s own efforts.

  • Note that in Catholicism young children may not have actual sin, but do have original sin. So Catholic teaching is more in line with St. Paul than many Protestants. For “all” have fallen short of the glory of God, including children.
 
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Kinsman:
The woman cannot represent Mary. Especially not the exalted, sinless Mary of Romanism since the process of her giving birth included the curse of labor pains
Romanism? well, the Protestant fathers (Luther, Calvin et al) certainly believed this… :rolleyes:
 
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jimmy:
Why does it not apply to Jesus?
Because there are exceptions to the rule.
Well, if Jesus is God, and God is perfect, then Jesus is perfect.
So Jesus is not an “exception to the rule.”
 
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SP38:
Well, if Jesus is God, and God is perfect, then Jesus is perfect.
So Jesus is not an “exception to the rule.”
Yes he is because it says all have sinned.
It does not say all but Jesus.
 
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jimmy:
Yes he is because it says all have sinned.
It does not say all but Jesus.
Jimmy, Why do you not believe the Word of God? Your talking about our creator here.How long will you deny Gods TRUTH. Do you believe Jesus committed a sin? If so you are justified in your belief if not then accept the TRUTH. :confused:
 
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