The assumption of Mary

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SpokenWord,
I believe Jimmy was being sarcastic :rolleyes: to the argument of Mary being sinful using the verse “for all have sinned” – because if you insist on using this as a “proof” of Mary not being sinless, you automatically assert that Jesus is not sinless! Don’t you get the tone?
 
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mrS4ntA:
SpokenWord,
I believe Jimmy was being sarcastic :rolleyes: to the argument of Mary being sinful using the verse “for all have sinned” – because if you insist on using this as a “proof” of Mary not being sinless, you automatically assert that Jesus is not sinless! Don’t you get the tone?
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It is my belief that at the time Mary concieved Jesus she was without sin, for the Lord would not use a vessel which had sin. Arent there times in our lives when we have no sin in us. Does that mean we are sinless? God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit are the only ones who were sinless. 😉
 
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SPOKENWORD:
It is my belief that at the time Mary concieved Jesus she was without sin, for the Lord would not use a vessel which had sin. Arent there times in our lives when we have no sin in us. Does that mean we are sinless? God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit are the only ones who were sinless. 😉
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I think God can make Her sinless, why would he let her vessel be defiled even after he was born? We, through communion with Christ receive the grace to leave sin and start living by the Spirit. No one has been in closer communion with Christ than her, so if before she gave birth to our Lord she was kept from sin, how much more after carrying God in her womb for 9 months and then living with him for 33 years!!

“For with God nothing will be impossible.”

Blessings,
J.C.
 
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jc_escobar:
I think God can make Her sinless, why would he let her vessel be defiled even after he was born? We, through communion with Christ receive the grace to leave sin and start living by the Spirit. No one has been in closer communion with Christ than her, so if before she gave birth to our Lord she was kept from sin, how much more after carrying God in her womb for 9 months and then living with him for 33 years!!

“For with God nothing will be impossible.”

Blessings,
J.C.
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JC, I agree with God all things are possible,BUT God does not contradict His Word. When He says All He means All. Please lets not get into a battle about the word ALL.] :confused:
 
Kinsman, New Life,

I did reread the post on whether he was talking of Mary’s death or Assumption. He is clearly speaking of Mary’s death. No one knows how or if she died. This is the same teaching of the church today. No one knows if or how she died.

Assumption and death are two different things. Hardly anyone has been assumed into heaven. It is false to say not knowing how or if someone DIED is the same as talking about no one knows if they were ASSUMED into heaven.
God Bless
 
In response to why Rom. 3:23, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” can’t include Mary, Jimmy writes:
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jimmy:
Why does it not apply to Jesus? Because there are exceptions to the rule.
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Apples and oranges, my friend. The Rom. 3:23 passage refers to ALL of Adam’s race, his posterity. Mary is a descendant of Adam, hence, the “all” in this passage includes her, excludes no one! In Rom. 3:10 Paul quotes God’s Word and proclaims, “There is none righteous, not even one!”

Why can’t this all inclusive Biblical truth apply to Jesus? My goodness man, need you be told??? Jesus was not of Adam’s race!! He was not a son of Adam, but the Holy Son of God. In fact, God Himself. Certainly a body was prepared for Him (Heb. 10:5) through the virgin birth, but that in no way required the virgin to be sinless. She was not the progenitor of His existence. He is eternally God the Son. In Him there is no darkness at all, neither prior to His incarnation nor after.

No, Jimmy, there are no exceptions to the “rule” when it comes to Adam’s race. It doesn’t matter what men proclaim, God has already stated it - in writing.
 
Oh, but Jesus IS of Adam’s race! Like we’ve said repeatedly, Jesus is not JUST GOD; He is God-Man! 100%God, 100%Man. He is the living Son of God, conceived by the Holy Spirit, but
He is (also) the son of Mary, Eve’s descendant. He is of the house of David… So, if there is exception with Jesus, there is exception with His holy Virgin Mother!
 
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mrS4ntA:
Oh, but Jesus IS of Adam’s race! Like we’ve said repeatedly, Jesus is not JUST GOD; He is God-Man! 100%God, 100%Man. He is the living Son of God, conceived by the Holy Spirit, but
He is (also) the son of Mary, Eve’s descendant. He is of the house of David… So, if there is exception with Jesus, there is exception with His holy Virgin Mother!
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OK, can you show even one reference in Scripture where He is called a “son of Adam?” That’s the whole point of the virgin birth…that He not be connected to Adam’s sinful race. Yes, He’s fully man and fully God, the theanthopic man (God-Man), but He’s no son of Adam.

He Himself is an “Adam,” in fact, the “Last Adam,” as Scripture calls Him, a progenitor of a whole new human race (1 Cor. 15:45), the “second man.” Paul draws the dichotomy: “The first man is from earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven” (vs. 47).

When a person truly believes in the Person and work of Jesus Christ he is “born again,” no longer in Adam (the first), but now in Jesus Christ, the Last Adam. By the power of God he is regenerated and is made a “new creature,” old things have passed away, behold new things have come (2 Cor. 5:17).

"So also it is written, “The first man Adam, became a living soul. The Last Adam became a life-giving spirit” (1 Cor. 15:45).

For this purpose He cannot be connected to Adam’s sinful race, dead in trespasses and sins. Yes, a human body was prepared for Him via the miracle of the virgin birth, but this Boy was/is Himself an Adam of heavenly origin, with the power to give new life in Himself to all who truly believe. That’s why this faith has nothing to do with being a “Catholic” or “Protestant.” The Gospel (good-news) message is about Jesus Christ, the Last Adam. It’s what the two word Biblical term means: “In Christ.” “To those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling.”
 
Rom. 3:23, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
Since babies/children are born separated from God’s glory due to original sin, the Holy Catholic Church certainly is one Church that accepts St. Paul’s statement fully. Many Protestants (especially Baptist-types) don’t. They reject original sin and claim that infants and children who die are saved…without Christ as savior. For them, children have no sin, therefore have no need for a savior.

Mary is the only exception (apart from Christ.) But her’s was a miracle, a singular act of Grace. So Mary was saved in Christ; not apart from Christ or due to her own efforts.
 
She was not the progenitor of His existence.
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Mary had nothing to do with Christ as God. Christ as God pre-existed Mary.

But Mary did contribute to the Incarnation, where Christ became man. Mary pre-existed the Incarnation.

It is an error to focus solely on Christ as eternal God without acknowledging the Incarnation: God becoming man. So we have another “existence” to consider.
 
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Kinsman:
In response to why Rom. 3:23, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” can’t include Mary, Jimmy writes: Apples and oranges, my friend. The Rom. 3:23 passage refers to ALL of Adam’s race, his posterity. Mary is a descendant of Adam, hence, the “all” in this passage includes her, excludes no one! In Rom. 3:10 Paul quotes God’s Word and proclaims, “There is none righteous, not even one!”

Why can’t this all inclusive Biblical truth apply to Jesus? My goodness man, need you be told??? Jesus was not of Adam’s race!! He was not a son of Adam, but the Holy Son of God. In fact, God Himself. Certainly a body was prepared for Him (Heb. 10:5) through the virgin birth, but that in no way required the virgin to be sinless. She was not the progenitor of His existence. He is eternally God the Son. In Him there is no darkness at all, neither prior to His incarnation nor after.

No, Jimmy, there are no exceptions to the “rule” when it comes to Adam’s race. It doesn’t matter what men proclaim, God has already stated it - in writing.
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None of this was said in the bible.
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Jimmy, Why do you not believe the Word of God? Your talking about our creator here.How long will you deny Gods TRUTH. Do you believe Jesus committed a sin? If so you are justified in your belief if not then accept the TRUTH. :confused:
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You missed the whole point of my post. I never said Jesus sinned. Can you reread my post and the posts previous to it. I was saying thare are exceptions to that statement. I have not rejected anything of the bible.
 
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Kinsman:
OK, can you show even one reference in Scripture where He is called a “son of Adam?” That’s the whole point of the virgin birth…that He not be connected to Adam’s sinful race. Yes, He’s fully man and fully God, the theanthopic man (God-Man), but He’s no son of Adam.

…
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He is called several times “Son of Mary”. And who is Mary if not the descendant of Adam and Eve? Mary wasn’t born miraculously; albeit immaculately conceived!

True, Christ IS the new Adam – and so is Mary the New Eve!
 
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mrS4ntA:
He is called several times “Son of Mary”. And who is Mary if not the descendant of Adam and Eve? Mary wasn’t born miraculously; albeit immaculately conceived!

True, Christ IS the new Adam – and so is Mary the New Eve!
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Why is Mary considered divine? Without sin, immaculately conceived? You just put her on the same level as Christ!

Why pray to Mary to get you to Jesus or to God? Why does she have some magical powers to get Jesus to hear your prayers? Why do the “saints” have magical powers too?

Why is Christ alone not enough?

Jesus said " I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father except through me. "
 
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SP38:
Why is Mary considered divine? Without sin, immaculately conceived? You just put her on the same level as Christ!
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No, we don’t, we won’t, and we never will! You can say that “we put Mary in the same level as Christ” IF – and only IF! – we say that those unique graces Mary received (without sin, immaculately conceived etc) comes from Mary herself. THEY DON’T – those graces come from God, who chose to use Mary as the vessel through which He carried out His salvation plan for men, and through the same vessel we should approach Jesus!
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SP38:
Why pray to Mary to get you to Jesus or to God? Why does she have some magical powers to get Jesus to hear your prayers? Why do the “saints” have magical powers too?

Why is Christ alone not enough?

Jesus said " I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father except through me. "
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God does hear our prayers, no one denies that He is omnipresent. God “never had and does not now have any absolute need of the Blessed Virgin for the accomplishment of his will and the manifestation of his glory. To do all things he has only to will them.”

HOWEVER, “considering things as they are, because God has decided to begin and accomplish his greatest works through the Blessed Virgin ever since he created her, we can safely believe that he will not change his plan in the time to come, for he is God and therefore does not change in his thoughts or his way of acting.” – St. Louis de Montfort.

It’s NOT like God “hears” if the prayers are sent through the Blessed Virgin. consider this analogy:
’ Any good our soul could produce is of less value to God our Father, in winning his friendship and favour, than a worm-eaten apple would be in the sight of a king, when presented by a poor peasant to his royal master as payment for the rent of his farm. But what would the peasant do if he were wise and if he enjoyed the esteem of the queen? Would he not present his apple first to her, and would she not, out of kindness to the poor man and out of respect for the king, remove from the apple all that was maggoty and spoilt, place it on a golden dish, and surround it with flowers? Could the king then refuse the apple? Would he not accept it most willingly from the hands of his queen who showed such loving concern for that poor man? “If you wish to present something to God, no matter how small it may be,” says St Bernard, “place it in the hands of Mary to ensure its certain acceptance.”’
 
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mrS4ntA:
He is called several times “Son of Mary”. And who is Mary if not the descendant of Adam and Eve? Mary wasn’t born miraculously; albeit immaculately conceived!
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This is a contradictory statement. Anyway, my question was, can you show me in Scripture where Jesus is referred to as a “Son of Adam?”
True, Christ IS the new Adam – and so is Mary the New Eve!
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Ah-huh, can you show me in Scripture where she’s called the "New Eve?" Christ is not called the “new Adam,” but the “Last Adam.” There’s GREAT theological significance in that phrase. And it has nothing to do with Mary. That Jesus is the “Last Adam” is a divinely revealed truth being found in the written Word of God. If you cannot show where Mary is called the “New Eve” in Scripture, then the title has no merit. It is the teachings of men, not God.
 
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jimmy:
None of this was said in the bible.
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Then it’s possible you might be reading the Koran. You’d better check, or if it says “Holy Bible” then you’ve got some research to do, buster.
 
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Kinsman:
In response to why Rom. 3:23, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” can’t include Mary, Jimmy writes: Apples and oranges, my friend. The Rom. 3:23 passage refers to ALL of Adam’s race, his posterity. Mary is a descendant of Adam, hence, the “all” in this passage includes her, excludes no one! In Rom. 3:10 Paul quotes God’s Word and proclaims, “There is none righteous, not even one!”

Why can’t this all inclusive Biblical truth apply to Jesus? My goodness man, need you be told??? Jesus was not of Adam’s race!! He was not a son of Adam, but the Holy Son of God. In fact, God Himself. Certainly a body was prepared for Him (Heb. 10:5) through the virgin birth, but that in no way required the virgin to be sinless. She was not the progenitor of His existence. He is eternally God the Son. In Him there is no darkness at all, neither prior to His incarnation nor after.

No, Jimmy, there are no exceptions to the “rule” when it comes to Adam’s race. It doesn’t matter what men proclaim, God has already stated it - in writing.
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Your Christology is heretical. It appears to be Apollinarianism and/or, perhaps, Monophysitism. As a result, your credibility has fallen right through the floor.

Justin
 
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Kinsman:
Then it’s possible you might be reading the Koran. You’d better check, or if it says “Holy Bible” then you’ve got some research to do, buster.
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You need to be reminded
4: Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; 5: it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6: it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. 7: Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
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Justin
 
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